Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:44 am

First, the material from the Eva soul thread that prompted me to start a new one (to avoid tangent):

View Original PostBagheera wrote:the CI tells us that, after 2I, Adam blew up and his soul "flew off somewhere". After that Seele (somehow) retrieved the soul and stuck it in Kaworu. How did they do this? The very fact that they can do this has staggering implications for the rest of the Eva universe, and it means we can't blow off the soul sucking business since textual evidence tells us it very much does exist in the setting.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:This, of course, contradicts the idea Reichu is exploring (if my recollection is not too confused) of 2I being a sort of contact experiment resulting in Kaworu right away. My as yet uncontinued fragment Adam awoke follows the CI approach.

View Original PostReichu wrote:I never saw any contradiction. Even before the CI was translated, I figured that the body was created first (via CE), and Adam's soul was put into it later.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:My problem with that is that I prefer my explanations minimal (vide Occam). Your scenario requires not just one strange and inexplicable thing to happen (Adam's soul flying off and being captured), but two simultaneously (also the creation of Kaworu, for which we have no parallel).


And now, my reply:

If you want simple explanations, this might be the wrong show for it!

Adam's soul flying off and being captured is stated to be what happened, so, well, we're stuck with that. As for the second "strange and inexplicable thing...

The creation of Kaworu by CE is strongly hinted at in the show. His day of "birth" is Second Impact; someone called the "donor" is scheduled to have a "contact experiment" with Adam on the day of 2I; as Adam awakens, it's said that genes which 'dived' into her have fused with her physically. The pieces come together fairly easily: the genes that "dived" were the donor's, and the "physical fusion" refers in some way to Kaworu's genesis (whether by sexual recombination or something else entirely).

Supplemental materials seem to be on track with this interpretation. The EoE theatrical booklet says, "It is likely that [Kaworu] was an Angel which had been captured by SEELE in the embryo [literally egg] stage." One of the blurbs on the Eva Chronicle "Tabris" info sheet seems very supportive, as well, from what I've made out at a glance; I suppose I should translate it.

The manga also decided to forego suggestive documentary-type flashbacks and just have Ritsuko lay it out in the open.

Ritsuko:
Humans tried to return Adam to an egg before the other Angels awoke. The result was Second Impact.
Among the data from your father’s research team that was retrieved just before it happened,
I have heard that there were indications of an attempt to use human genes in some way.
If that was actually done in secret, if the Angel born at that time took human form,
and if the Committee got their hands on it, then according to MAGI everything adds up.

There's no conflict between the manga and anime in this regard. Sadamoto provided with bald exposition what I'd been able to previously piece together. It was a pleasant surprise when this chapter arrived.
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Postby pwhodges » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:24 am

Thanks for that interesting outline. There are details there which I don't recall having taken in before - my excuse is that I've been studying Eva for less than four years, and then only as part of my very dense life...

I have always imagined that the physical result of the 2I contact was the Adam embryo which Kaji steals for Gendou, and that Kaworu was a later creation to recapture the soul which had "flown off". There's the further difficulty that if the 2I disaster killed everyone there except Misato, how was either the embryo (and Kaworu if we admit that possibility) retrieved - undamaged at that.

Kaworu's birthday can be put down to convenient falsification of records (which is how it comes over in the show), or the date that his soul was freed for that (later) use. Is any age stated anywhere for Rei? I don't recall - but there might be a similar consideration there.

Kaworu's remarks to Rei basically support the idea that they are both the soul of a seed in a clone of a human; I need to think more about the implication of Rei's response that they are not the same - is she saying, for instance, that she knows about the Lilim because she has been educated as one, whereas he has not (hence his naive curiosity, especially in the manga).

Lots for me to work on, I think.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:39 pm

Here is the bit from Eva Chronicle.

アダムの魂を宿した肉体

サルベージされたアダムの魂を内に持つというタブリス。セカ ンドインパクトの発生後にアダムの魂はゼーレによって回収され、 渚カヲルの肉体へ移された。その華奢で中性的な肉体は誰のものをベースにしているのかは不明。ただ、葛城調査隊はアダムに対し遺伝子ダイブ実験を行っており、その提供者の肉体情報を基にしている可能性もあるだろう。一方、再生されたアダ ムの肉体は碇ゲンドウの右手へと移植されている。

The Flesh Wherein Adam's Soul Resides

Tabris has within him the salvaged soul of Adam. After Second Impact occurred, Adam's soul was recovered by Seele and transferred to the body of Kaworu Nagisa. It is unknown who provided the base for this spindly and androgynous vessel. However, [Kaworu's body] may quite possibly be based on the corporeal data of the donor involved in the gene-diving experiment the Katsuragi Research Team performed upon Adam. On another note, Adam's regenerated body is implanted onto the right hand of Gendo Ikari.


View Original Postpwhodges wrote:There's the further difficulty that if the 2I disaster killed everyone there except Misato, how was either the embryo (and Kaworu if we admit that possibility) retrieved - undamaged at that.

Welll....

  • We have to accept that Misato somehow survived, because she did. (This is extremely contrived in and of itself. Even if that pod had some kind of magical AATF-repelling property, how was she not incinerated inside it, or not have every bone in her body broken when the pod was violently thrown around, or...)
  • We have to accept that an egg/embryo form of Adam survived, since, well, it did.
  • With these two already being givens, the addition of Tabris's egg surviving seems to add no further difficulty. It could have pulled through the same way that Adam did. (However exactly that was; fanwank something.)
Kaworu's birthday can be put down to convenient falsification of records (which is how it comes over in the show), or the date that his soul was freed for that (later) use.

Is there any actually logical reason why his day of birth would be falsified to something so suspicious? This is also information that Hyuga had to dig for, mind. The only purpose it seems to serve is exposition. The tidbit was also in the original version of 24, where one could easily arrive at the conclusion that Kaworu was a "normal" Angel born from Adam who just so happened to assume Lilin shape. While they elaborated on his origins after that, the "actually born from Adam" part does not seem to have changed.
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:39 pm

I missed this part of my first reply:

View Original PostReichu wrote:If you want simple explanations, this might be the wrong show for it!

I didn't say simple, I said minimal. As Einstein is reputed to have said, everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:04 pm

Don't know if you saw the bit from Chronicle, as our posts went up almost simultaneously.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I didn't say simple, I said minimal. As Einstein is reputed to have said, everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.

Put that down to my brain's automatic thesaurus mode, I guess. Well, if it's simple minimal you want, may as well keep the necessary events down to a minimum, right? The Katsuragi Expedition were sticking human genes into Adam anyway. The genes underwent some sort of mysterious fusion with Adam anyway. And we have this weird Angel who was "born from Adam" but somehow has the shape of a Lilin anyway. Instead of making Kaworu's creation something that happened after 2I in an event that the show doesn't directly hint at, -- which, incidentally, would also require coming up with an alternate explanation for just what the hell WAS going on with all that donor and diving DNA business -- take the path of least resistance.

From a previous post:

I need to think more about the implication of Rei's response that they are not the same - is she saying, for instance, that she knows about the Lilim because she has been educated as one, whereas he has not (hence his naive curiosity, especially in the manga).

I can't really answer this one, since Rei saying they're not the same is manga-only, and I'm not exactly an expert on manga-specific nuances.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Wouldn't all this be so much easier if we just agreed to ignore the CI?

Eh, oh well. Still just me I guess.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:38 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Wouldn't all this be so much easier if we just agreed to ignore the CI?

Which part becomes easier, exactly?
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Postby pwhodges » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:41 pm

That echoes something I said privately: that much of the CI reads like fanwanking; it's just that it's official fanwanking.

But we have it, so there's some obvious pressure to consider it, at least.
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Postby Monk Ed » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:23 pm

Reichu wrote:Tabris has within him the salvaged soul of Adam. After Second Impact
occurred, Adam's soul was recovered by Seele and transferred to the
body of Kaworu Nagisa. It is unknown who provided the base for this
spindly and androgynous vessel. However, [Kaworu] may quite
possibly be based on the corporeal data of the donor involved in the
gene-diving experiment the Katsuragi Research Team performed upon
Adam.

That's in Chronicle?!

I'm convinced.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:49 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Which part becomes easier, exactly?


the CI tells us that, after 2I, Adam blew up and his soul "flew off somewhere".


The contact experiment resulting directly in the production of Kaworu, body and soul, seems MUCH cleaner than all this rigamarole of finding it somewhere and slapping it into a body they just had laying around for reasons.

...and also anything dealing with the FAR or canceling duel of the seeds for that matter, because the first doesn't need explaining and the latter is too cool to lose because some side content bullshit says no.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:57 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Wouldn't all this be so much easier if we just agreed to ignore the CI?


Yes. Yesssssssss. Besides my philosophical objection to it which would be redundant to elaborate on at this point, the CI raises more questions than it answers anyway.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:31 am

I personally feel Anno needs to Rebuild that Tier 2 shit.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:18 am

Hmmm. Not sure I'm seeing anything new here, as everything said so far seems to echo what I'd already thought to be the case. I do think the poor schmuck who "dived" into Adam (the "donor") was probably killed in the process, as his genes "fused" with Adam; I'm hard pressed to see how that could happen and leave a body alive and kicking. Past that, I'm still really puzzled as to how Adam can go kablooey and leave behind both an embryo and Kaworu. I could sort of see it if someone were on site and using the Lance or something, but since there was no one there we have to assume it just . . . happened on its own, I guess? :headscratch: And then Misato and Kaworu and the Lance and the Embryo are just floating around down there for who knows how long . . . Gah.

As to the CI raising more questions than it answers: nah. I can't see a way to engineer Kaworu that doesn't reek of stupid, and the CI approach is no worse than any other. Rei's origin makes a certain amount of sense, but Kaworu's doesn't. It can't, since he's supposedly created after Adam explodes and is created in addition to the Adam embryo. That means his existence can't possibly make any sense no matter the particulars of one's approach.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:10 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Yes. Yesssssssss. Besides my philosophical objection to it which would be redundant to elaborate on at this point, the CI raises more questions than it answers anyway.

I think the whole point of Eva is to ask questions. In EoE Misato tells Shinji that he must find answers to his questions. If the audience is meant to relate to Shinji, then that is a message for ourselves as well. Answering these questions for the audience is of second tier importance to the Eva branding. I think this also applies to the CI, NGE2, and Sadamoto's manga. I think it'll also apply to NTE and anything related to it.

I also think fanwanking is fun, especially when Anno & Co. plays along with you.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:33 am

I'm a bit puzzled by the assertion that the Classified Information has all that much to say about Kaworu's genesis, not to mention that what it says is terribly convoluted or controversial. All it says is that Adam's soul flew off when she blew up and it was fixed into Kaworu later. Well... how the heck do you think Adam's soul got into Kaworu? It magically relocated into the Kaworu zygote while Adam was still busy with Second Impact? Or it somehow found its way from Adam's core (which, being the site of the S2 Engine, must have blown up in a bad way) into the embryo that was somehow left behind after Adam blew up, and Seele somehow coerced the soul to live in an embryonic scrawny bishounen instead? I'm kind of glad the CI cuts through most of these obnoxious questions and lets me focus on just one or two. :p

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I do think the poor schmuck who "dived" into Adam (the "donor") was probably killed in the process, as his genes "fused" with Adam; I'm hard pressed to see how that could happen and leave a body alive and kicking.

It wasn't a whole person who was said to have "dived"; it was only his "genes" that did. The nature of the experiment is fundamentally different from the later CEs. Adam has a soul, so they can't possibly be doing what Yui and Kyoko were supposedly attempting (imprinting a copy soul onto an empty core). Instead, it's a wacky genetics experiment. And since nothing is said about the actual contact procedure, the specifics are almost entirely up to one's imagination, including whether the donor could survive the experiment or not. (I've obviously been able to imagine a way for him to survive, but for... reasons... I won't divulge them here.)

Rei's origin makes a certain amount of sense, but Kaworu's doesn't. It can't, since he's supposedly created after Adam explodes

Supposedly, according to whom/what? The text implies that he's created as soon as "physical fusion" occurs. (The soulless vessel, at least.)
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:40 am

What exactly is the CI saying that wasn't hinted at in the series between the "salvaged" soul and the birth date?
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:53 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It wasn't a whole person who was said to have "dived"; it was only his "genes" that did.


Huh. You've given me exactly the opposite impression in the past. Something about the Japanese word suggesting an actual person was involved or something.

Supposedly, accordingly to whom/what? The text implies that he's created as soon as "physical fusion" occurs. (The soulless vessel, at least.)


How does that even happen, though? I mean, what, you stick genes in Adam and a person pops out? What the hell? And then we have to figure out how that body survived not only Antarctica blowing up, but also Adam's anti-ATF . . . it's just dumb. I really wish Anno'd made it such that Seele just cloned the guy at a later date using material from the embryo. That would be so much simpler and more sensible.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:58 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The text implies that he's created as soon as "physical fusion" occurs. (The soulless vessel, at least.)

I'm not so certain:
It is unknown who provided the base for this spindly and androgynous vessel. However, [Kaworu's body] may quite possibly be based on the corporeal data of the donor involved in the gene-diving experiment the Katsuragi Research Team performed upon Adam.

That can perfectly well be read, it seems to me, to say that the data of that donor was available for subsequent use by Seele (a sample of it having been used at the South Pole). In my mind Seele create a body to hold the recaptured soul of Adam, and I don't see anything to make this interpretation impossible.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:08 am

pwhodges: I thought you wanted minimal?

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Huh. You've given me exactly the opposite impression in the past. Something about the Japanese word suggesting an actual person was involved or something.

An actual person was involved, but it was his genes that did the diving and not the whole person.

How does that even happen, though? I mean, what, you stick genes in Adam and a person pops out? What the hell?

I've long thought the "genes diving" and "physical fusion" stuff seemed weirdly evocative of sex, and this IS Eva after all... I don't figure a "person popped out" so much as they impregnated Adam somehow ("diving genes", lol), she retained the zygote/embryo/whatever inside herself for the duration of Second Impact, and when the rest of her body burned off/blew up and left embryo!Adam behind, embryo!Tabris was left behind as well.

And then we have to figure out how that body survived not only Antarctica blowing up, but also Adam's anti-ATF . . .

Survived the explosion the same way the Adam embryo did. Adam's AATF is unimportant, since Kaworu is only really Lilin-shaped, and AATFs don't seem to have much of an effect on gods.

That would be so much simpler and more sensible.

I kind of like the fucked-up reversal implicit in the provided scenario, myself. Mortal man knocks up God, instead of God knocking up mortal woman... (Obligatory repost. ...six years already?!)
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(Or, How Dr. Katsuragi Found God): Read at AO3 & Discuss Here.
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"Fighting idiocy is like fighting a hydra. Cut off one head, two more grow back and need to tell you their uninformed opinion." - PeeJee, Something*Positive

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:26 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:pwhodges: I thought you wanted minimal?

In interpretation at this level, even which option counts as "minimal" is subject to personal opinion it seems!
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Kaworu starts to prepare Shinji for dual-piloting (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)


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