Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:52 pm

Now see that carries different implications than the previous post. It sounded like you were suggesting the mere presence of Lilith based DNA was the trigger. And I was thinking but that doesn't actually work.

Still have to address why Seele moved the spear to the dead sea and the reversion protocol and them being implied to know something bad was coming via skipping town with all the research notes the day before.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:07 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Now see that carries different implications than the previous post. It sounded like you were suggesting the mere presence of Lilith based DNA was the trigger. And I was thinking but that doesn't actually work.

I was probably being vague on purpose, since, while I can't figure out a way for "Lilith-based DNA as trigger" to work either, apparently it IS an idea that's out there.

Still have to address why Seele moved the spear to the dead sea and the reversion protocol and them being implied to know something bad was coming via skipping town with all the research notes the day before.

Not sure there's a whole lot to be done with that. I guess their people in the Middle East had SOME way of reconfiguring the Spear so that it would revert Adam instead of just making her go sleepies again, but, since they were fucking with things they didn't completely understand, Seele made sure to get their key personnel away from the South Pole JUST IN CASE things went to shit. (Naturally, the guy who actually understood the inner workings of S2 engines was expendable. LAWL.) Though honestly, they could've been a little less suspicious about it than leaving the day before the procedure. :rolleyes:
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Re: Where was the Spear discovered, exactly?

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:32 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The EoE theatrical program suggests that Kaworu was collected by Seele while still an egg, which works out. Kaworu would not have had much opportunity to gestate inside Adam after the donor genes "physically fused" with her, and if Seele could retrieve Adam's egg, they could certainly find Kaworu's as well.

So if Kaworu was formed from an egg, that means he was at that point straightforwardly an angel, which only came to look like a human because, prior to further development it was "merged" with human DNA.

That works better in some ways than my previous thought of his being a human clone with the soul of Adam. This would be the parallel of Rei; but they are not quite exactly the same as Kaworu claims when speaking to Rei.
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Re: Where was the Spear discovered, exactly?

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:59 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:So if Kaworu was formed from an egg, that means he was at that point straightforwardly an angel, which only came to look like a human because, prior to further development it was "merged" with human DNA.

This is an idea I've had for some time, though prompted less by the suggestion he was discovered as an egg (though I suppose that could have played a part!) and more by... well... Look at how this is worded:

Woman B (left) "The genes that dived into Adam have already undergone physical fusion!"

The only line from the 9/13 footage addressing Kaworu's genesis in any way, and it mentions both "diving genes" and "physical fusion". Remembering that Adam is Kaworu's "mother" from whom he was "born" on this very day, it sounds like what's happening is nothing less than conception. (Genes diving into Adam = sperm entering female; physical fusion = union of sperm and egg.)* That Kaworu is a Christ figure is no revelation, either, but this creation envisions him more specifically as an Anti-Christ: placed into the womb of God by mortal man, as it were, and not the reverse.

This would be the parallel of Rei; but they are not quite exactly the same as Kaworu claims when speaking to Rei.

Kaworu says they are the same, but specifies in what way: they're both using the form of the Lilin at the present time and place (planet), alluding, of course, to the idea that they're both incarnations of Seeds of Life. So they're allowed to be different in other ways. ;3

* If this were most other shows, I would think I was being perverted and reading too deeply into things, but since this is Psychoanalysis: The Cartoon, I've just sort of assumed that I'm "doing it right".
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby NemZ » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:15 pm

So if Kaworu has adam's soul but is the product of this fusion and NOT of the embryo Adam reverts to... what happened the original soul of the angel egg some crazy scientist knocked up?
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:10 pm

Adam only gives souls to the other Angels when opening her Gates of Guf during 2I. Perhaps they already existed in some way, and receiving a soul triggered their incubation period, which of course lasted 15 years. The question, then, is whether Kaworu also received a soul at this time and Seele just got rid of it somehow, or if he was (like most of the show's other artificial beings) born without a soul. I would lean toward the latter, since it fits into a preexisting pattern.

Granted, we know that similar-ish creations like Eva-01 and the Rei clones are soulless because Lilith didn't have anything to give them, which wasn't the case with Adam. Unless Adam only had a measly 13-14 souls in that Guf, but that goes against the implications in NGE2 that all Seeds start out the same and only determine what colonization plan to use when they reach their world...

A possible head canon is that Angels must complete their gestation within Adam and be deposited as eggs before they can receive souls. (Kaworu wasn't around long enough to complete this process, so no soul for him.) I'm sure if I fanwank hard enough I could come up with some convoluted technical reason why this is.
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:51 pm

I think it's more reasonable to believe that Kaworu does have his own soul.

The fact that Kaworu refers to Rei being 'in the same form as the lilim' - as well as the way he's drawn with pale skin and red irises - cause people to expect an overly symmetrical relationship between them. Rei seems to be a vessel for Lillith's soul. Kaworu is a vessel for Adam's soul. Rei is a copy of the flesh of a person whose soul is elsewhere, and whose clones seem to lack a soul. Some even theorise who the donor to Kaworu's soul is - Gendo, Misato's dad, Kaji. BUT - this element of Kaworu's nature is only explicitly mentioned in the conversation with SEELE on the lake added to the Director's Cut.. But why does Kaworu have a humanoid form I hear you ask?

Because, independently of Adam stuff, Kaworu is a 'humanoid angel.' Ritsuko identifies him as the 'last angel'. He even has his own name, Tabris. (Okay, no one says he isn't an angel but no one ever calls Rei that just because she houses Lilith's soul. Does she have an angel name, or number, or do people who theorise that all the angels need to be destroyed like Kaworu before 3I include her? Not that I know of.)

In the draft versions 1 and 2 of Episode 24 not only is this his deal, the being in Terminal Dogma is still identified as Adam, like Kaji did way back in episode 15. He also appears as a still in the OP animation The 'Proposal' -going all the way back to when the ruins of Arka were going to be a thing - talk of a humanoid angel with a cat that reappears famously in the manga version. So they always planned to have 'a humanoid angel' long before they settled what they were doing with Adam.

It also solves another problem - does Kaworu actually die? His huge spiel about "My last will and testament. Now, erase me from this world" and the dialogue Shinji has with the intertitles about killing him are irrelevant if his reappearance in EoE is just a changing of fleshsuits. Twin-souled Kaworu allows a resolution to this plot hole. The only being that survives is the Adam soul that he houses.

(there's also an apocryphal belief that 'if you die before 3I you die in real life' - one of the arguments in favour is that those who seem to have died clearly beforehand mike few or questionable appearances in the 25-26 dreamworld. A particularly noticeable absence is Kaworu.)
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:33 pm

The conceptual stuff is interesting, but it isn't part of the final story. So stuff like Seele telling Kaworu he has Adam's soul and Kaworu reappearing after Rei absorbs Adam dictate what's to given greatest priority. The idea for Kaworu evolved. Handwaving information in the show because of older concepts just doesn't make sense.

Kaworu did not necessarily have any idea he would live on as part of Lilith, and Shinji CERTAINLY didn't know this -- so I see no problems here. Episode 23 has NGE make its own case that death has an impact even under such odd circumstances as "skinsuit-changing". The impact of Yui's death upon her loved ones also needs no explanation; she is reborn as Eva, but things are never as they were.

A double-spirit seems like an unnecessary complication without precedent. The nearest thing in the show is Israfel, but that seems to be a case of twins who find greater comfort existing as One -- thematically resonant, as a subtle way of illustrating souls in an Instrumentality-like state very early in the show. Now, with Kaworu, the greatest allusion to dual existence is when he calls Adam his mother, but this needn't be taken as some other soul inside Kaworu saying this. That Kaworu is Adam incarnated in Lilin form covers this duality, by way of analogy with Jesus and God the Father. (Jesus is God's son and yet also Gid himself.)
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:57 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The idea for Kaworu evolved.


Evolve is the right word. Kaworu was originally conceived as an angel, named Tabris, number 17, that just happened to be humanoid. To this idea housing Adam's soul was later added. Like, in the draft versions he has golden hair before he was Rei-ificated. But this has been added and that he is an independent angel was never taken away. No one disputes that Kaworu is a separate angel from Adam, or claims that Rei is an angel separate from Lilith, if she's called an angel at all. In that sense everyone accepts that Kaworu is an angel in excess of whatever Rei is.

Kaworu did not necessarily have any idea he would live on as part of Lilith, and Shinji CERTAINLY didn't know this -- so I see no problems here. Episode 23 has NGE make its own case that death has an impact even under such odd circumstances as "skinsuit-changing".


I'm just going to play the emotions card say episodes 24-26 are meaningful to me because Kaworu dies embracing his death and it messes Shinji up (and also Kaji dies and it messes Misato up and they are both dead dead dead). I'd have to change my emotional response to those episodes a lot if I though they were just mistaken.

A double-spirit seems like an unnecessary complication without precedent. The nearest thing in the show is Israfel


Hmmm. I was going to go with Kaworu's "dominant soul" re Nigouki but the evageeks wiki doesn't seem to translate it that way. http://wiki.evageeks.org/FGC:Episode_24_Cut_218
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:39 am

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:I'm just going to play the emotions card say episodes 24-26 are meaningful to me because Kaworu dies embracing his death and it messes Shinji up (and also Kaji dies and it messes Misato up and they are both dead dead dead). I'd have to change my emotional response to those episodes a lot if I though they were just mistaken.

Kaworu's death is never magically undone. Yes, he continues to have some sort of spiritual presence and exhibits limited ability to physically manifest -- but as these things occur only while Lilith takes the form of a jumbo-sized composite goddess, they represent, at best, transient miracles. And Lilith dies once no longer needed, taking Adam with her. There is nothing there indicating that the boy Kaworu Nagisa, as Shinji knew him, ever returns. His ghost flickering before Shinji's eyes under the weirdest circumstances conceivable should not, to my mind, do anything to erase the substantial psychological damage incurred from being forced to kill someone.

Again: I cited Rei and Yui's deaths for a reason. NGE itself establishes that loss is loss, and people don't cease to respond to it simply because their loved one's soul still exists somewhere in some form. This just isn't how the human mind works. You can see some evidence of this in real life, where spiritual workarounds for the permanence of death are abundant and believed in earnest (e.g., "they're up in Heaven and watching over me, and we'll be together again someday") but the impact of death is no less profound.

Hmmm. I was going to go with Kaworu's "dominant soul" re Nigouki but the evageeks wiki doesn't seem to translate it that way.

Yeah, nothing there about "dominant soul"s. Kaworu's just saying that if it weren't for the Evas having souls he could assimilate them (i.e. absorb their flesh and make it his own).
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Postby imprimatur13 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:00 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:1. Lilin manage to impregnate Adam with bishounen rape baby using this absurd "diving DNA" procedure that they've devised.
2. Becoming pregnant activates Adam's maternal Seed programming.
3. The experiment upon Adam is perceived as a threat to the gestating offspring.

So, can we assume that the egg was ejected from Adam's body almost immediately after impregnation? Or, was it ejected only after the explosion?
View Original PostReichu wrote:
  • We have to accept that Misato somehow survived, because she did. (This is extremely contrived in and of itself. Even if that pod had some kind of magical AATF-repelling property, how was she not incinerated inside it, or not have every bone in her body broken when the pod was violently thrown around, or...)
  • We have to accept that an egg/embryo form of Adam survived, since, well, it did.
  • With these two already being givens, the addition of Tabris's egg surviving seems to add no further difficulty. It could have pulled through the same way that Adam did. (However exactly that was; fanwank something.)

Hmmm... I wonder: Is it possible that Kaworu already had a powerful ATF at this point, which is what protected him from the AATF? I think this fits with what you said later, Reichu. Or, that his egg was inside Adam, and Adam's AATF would not have enveloped herself (if the AATF is just an extremely powerful ATF, that assimilates all other ATF's in its path, the possessor of such a Field would not be destroyed by it. GNR wasn't reduced to LCL, after all, right?), which means Kaworu would have been protected by virtue of still having been inside her? And then, the egg would presumably have been ejected at the same time Adam was embryized.

Secondly, perhaps Misato was somehow protected by Kaworu/Adam's ATF? Which would explain her survival.
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Re: Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Lyrical » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:47 pm

If the people at Ground Zero were considered "external" to Adam and therefore targets for A.T. dissolution, then Misato would also have been an external entity; I really doubt another being's ATF could have shielded her in that scenario. What's more likely is that the pod she was in did have some sort of protective property. Maybe not an "anti-anti-AT-Field" specific property, but a property to deflect certain types of energy. While I doubt that anything manmade could stand up against Adam's full power indefinitely, it probably also helped that the pod had cleared some distance before being exposed to the Field — Anti-AT is not automatically effective, it has to achieve a certain magnitude to do its job, and it's pretty simple to assume that the further you are from the epicentre the less intense the effect is.

As for Tabris' egg, do we know that it even left Adam during Second Impact itself? What I assumed was that the part of Adam that "exploded" was the extremities, outer flesh and muscle, et cetera, while the nervous system (including core) and portions of the reproductive system (including Chamber of Guf and human DNA) were left behind to regress into the embryo. The embryo starts growing back a bit before they have time to seal it up, which is why the one we see is re-fleshed and has started growing little limbs. And inside that embryo was a tiny egg.

Sandalphon's egg appeared to be huge, but we don't know that all Angel eggs were the same size. Even if they were, it's completely possible that the egg shrank to match the shrinkage of its mother. Anyway, upon studying the embryo, they harvest this egg from it, seal the embryo in Bakelite, and then start artificially fuelling the egg's development. Very soon, Kaworu is born.


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