Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Sachi » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:23 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Was it ever said how soon after the event they found Misato? I legitimately can't remember.

They certainly found her quickly enough for her to not have died of dehydration or hunger, or even blood loss (remember that her large scar originated from this incident). Her quick recovery is quite suspicious, unless somebody was also planning to be there for the recovery of the Adam embryo.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:39 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:They certainly found her quickly enough for her to not have died of dehydration or hunger, or even blood loss (remember that her large scar originated from this incident). Her quick recovery is quite suspicious, unless somebody was also planning to be there for the recovery of the Adam embryo.


I mean you'd think that'd make sense till you remember those tsunamis and how there really shouldn't be any working ports anywhere near Antarctica. And then you cycle into but wait... how exactly does that work? Probably not best to think about this. Plot doesn't care about these sorts of things.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Nuclear submarines, AEF? Those can go underwater for months on end and they'd be able to avoid any wave action (which would be on the surface). Also, tsunamis are actually a lot weaker out in deep water than they are in shallow water, so ships rarely notice them.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:54 pm

Mega tsunamis don't behave like normal tsunamis. They're always giant waves.

Here are a couple of videos on the topic you might find interesting/horrifying
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzm49fUSCPk[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtIJETdGDQQ[/url]
Video quality sucks but meh

A nuclear sub could get there but that's not exactly a search and rescue ship. This entire thing is utterly confusing.
Last edited by Anonymous_Evafan on Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:20 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:This entire thing is utterly confusing.

Be glad you're not trying to write a fanfic about it.

OK, got word back from Numbers-kun.

Reichu wrote:In episode 21' and Death, there's the line 「提供者との接触実験は来月の13目の予定だ。調整は間に合うよ」. 提供者との接触実験 ("contact experiment with the donor") is the part I'm interested in. There seems to be disagreement as to whether or not an actual person made contact with Adam, as opposed to the Katsuragi Team just sticking DNA into Adam or whatever. However, since it says here that the experiment is "with the donor", wouldn't that mean that the person is an actual part of the procedure? Like if you say "dinner with the Pattersons", the Pattersons are actually there in their entirety eating dinner with you. So, accordingly, in an experiment with X, X is actually there in whole being part of the experiment. The use of a live person would also establish this contact experiment as having at least some similarity to the later ones with Yui and Kyoko. So... What's your take on this?


Numbers-kun wrote:That's the most natural way to read it. I think it is at least possible to understand in another way depending on what exactly is happening (e.g. injection of person X's genetic material into Adam = contact between person X and Adam?), but as is the line certainly seems to indicate that a person is expected to be present, especially, as you say, given what we know about later contact experiments.

A comment from the thread here: http://mixi.jp/view_bbs.pl?comm_id=3340630&id=50599405

ここで注目すべきは「提供者」という点だと思います。ただ遺伝子をアダムに接触させるだけなら「提供者」といった言い方はしないと思うので、人間であった可能性のほうが高いと思いました。

I think the comment is saying something along the lines that the term "donor" wouldn't be used if it were ONLY genes making contact with Adam, so it's very likely that a person was present.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:36 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I think the comment is saying something along the lines that the term "donor" wouldn't be used if it were ONLY genes making contact with Adam, so it's very likely that a person was present.


Doesn't that suggest they somehow stuck the donor into Adam, all entry-plug like? I mean, it's obviously not like the Yui and Kyoko experiments (as you noted, Adam already has a soul and such), but between the "contact experiment with the donor" and "the genes are fusing with Adam!" (or whatever the exact line is) I'm having trouble seeing how said donor wasn't somehow sent inside of Adam for the experiment.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:59 am

Bagheera: Enclosing the test subject inside a giant metal capsule seems a bit counterproductive if the purpose of the exercise is to expose Adam to said subject's genetic material. The entry plug is designed for the purpose of simultaneous nuclear (core) and neural contact, not flesssssshly physical contact, so we can probably assume that one was not involved in the first CE.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:01 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Bagheera: Enclosing the test subject inside a giant metal capsule seems a bit counterproductive if the purpose of the exercise is to expose Adam to said subject's genetic material. The entry plug is designed for the purpose of simultaneous nuclear (core) and neural contact, not flesssssshly physical contact, so we can probably assume that one was not involved in the first CE.


Even so, it seems as though some sort of actual physical contact took place, and that that ended up going badly for the donor.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:46 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Even so, it seems as though some sort of actual physical contact took place, and that that ended up going badly for the donor.

My stance all this time is that physical contact between donor and Adam is what occurred, so your phrasing (which implies that I've been saying something else) is a bit confusing. Furthermore, there is no evidence one way or another regarding the donor's fate, beyond the obvious "couldn't have survived Third Impact" bit. Though worth considering: If the person had died, perhaps the KatsExp would have entered panic mode a bit sooner, no?

I'll probably try to stay away from the thread past this, since I'm at increasing risk for saying too much about certain things that I want to keep secret for a while longer... :whistle:

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:49 pm

If he had contact with Adam, and later fused with Adam, wouldn't that suggest a double-plus not good end for the donor?
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:39 pm

The donor's genes could have been inserted through blood. White blood cells are nucleated, after all. The Spear of Longinus could have been used to poke the genes inside Adam, or maybe they tried using a giant hypodermic. Or maybe they just concentrated the donor's DNA and injected that into Adam's core in some form? It doesn't have to involve physical contact of a donor, and the line in 21' said explicitly that the genes were diving rather than the donor was diving.

Unless the donor was Misato (which obviously isn't the case), it was a very bad end for the guy at 2I.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:48 pm

Using the spear wouldn't really make any sense unless Seele really, really fucked with its programming.
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Postby NemZ » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:18 pm

I just keep picturing Groundskeeper Wille demanding to be greased up. :lol:

Well... on the darker side, there was a theory that floated around years ago that Misato was the donor and the contact actually went the other way... that the embryo was grown inside of her and harvested after she was recovered. Not saying that's got anything to do with the scar though, which is clearly too high for such matters. The CI probably shoots that down, but I don't care.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:19 pm

Ursus: See the bit with Numbers above. The donor's genes might have fused with Adam, but it sounds like the CE was between Adam and the donor himself, not Adam and the latter's genes.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:52 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The 2I docu-flashback seems to suggest that Kaworu's conception is in fact what triggers Second Impact.


I've been thinking about this and this doesn't really make sense. Why would putting Lilin dna in Adam trigger 2I? I ask this because it occurred to me we have an example of the reverse not causing such an event, Yui eating Zeruel. Now I'm not saying the CE wasn't important to what was happening. It very much is. But from the talk about the spear and special processing I get the impression Seele rigged this situation by convincing them to jump start the S2 engine during the CE to see what happened and expecting the spear to stop it before it went entirely wrong while reverting Adam to an embryo as per Chronicle. Create a mess the spear has to react to and deal with.

Which didn't go to plan at all.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:44 am

^Well, it is still significant that Kaworu's birthday is apparently the same day as Second Impact, or at least the information Hyuga recovers in Episode 24 claims it is. The fact that Kaworu's birthday is listed instead of being erased with the rest of his origin data indicates that he was actually created on that day (unless it was intended as a hint to Nerv about Kaworu's true nature). Perhaps from the Dead Sea Scrolls SEELE knew Kaworu would be a byproduct of 2I, or perhaps he was an unwanted side-effect of human genes diving into Adam, but his appearance as the last Angel was probably prophesised.

As for Eva-01 eating Zeruel, while it does take the S2 engine into itself, it seems that the Eva is converting the Angel's mass into its own Lilith-clone flesh rather than fusing with it (as shown when it converts Zeruel's arm into its own). It should also be noted that the circumstances aren't exactly the same as Adam's CE, as Eva-01 at that point lacked Lilith's soul.

It is important to consider that the actual fusion of Adam's body and soul with Lilith's body and soul via Rei in EoE does actually trigger Third Impact, indicating that the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith was in fact the catalyst for Second Impact but that the presence of one or both Seed of Life souls were necessary for this to occur.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:52 am

The fusion of Adam and Lilith didn't trigger 3I, in fact the harpies started 3I all on their own.

Shigeru (off screen):
The Eva series have opened up their S2 systems!

Makoto (off screen):
Dimensional values inverting! They're going negative!
Measurement impossible... Numerical expression invalid!

Fuyutsuki:
An anti-AT Field...

Maya:
All the data are just like 15 years ago!
Then... this really is... The prelude to Third Impact!


Rei simply hijacked it.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:07 pm

^True. Perhaps the Lance is the necessary factor? The Lance of Longinus was key to SEELE's plans (hence why they were pissed off when it went into space) and they went to the trouble of making lots of copies for the MP Evas; in fact 3I actually convinces the original Lance to return from space.. However, rather than being a controlling factor like you suggested, perhaps the Lance is somehow necessary to somehow start up the Impact, hence its role in Adam's CE which possibly led to Kaworu's creation.

Interestingly, Gendo tried to get rid of the Spear (and outright states in Episode 24 that it was an obstacle to reuniting with Yui) which indicates that it's necessary for SEELE's scenario of 3I but would have somehow prevented Gendo's version from occurring, although that's going a bit off-topic.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:46 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:I've been thinking about this and this doesn't really make sense. Why would putting Lilin dna in Adam trigger 2I?

Disclaimer: No one will believe this.

1. Lilin manage to impregnate Adam with bishounen rape baby using this absurd "diving DNA" procedure that they've devised.
2. Becoming pregnant activates Adam's maternal Seed programming.
3. The experiment upon Adam is perceived as a threat to the gestating offspring.
4. Adam goes berserk and begins freeing self from restraints.
5. At the same time, Adam turns up volume on S2 engine with intention of erasing damage done to Earth while she was forcefully put under, thereby generating an ideal environment for baby to grow up in.
6. Katsuragi Expedition try to skewer Adam again and make the madness stop, but things only get worse.
7. Kablooey.
8. Kablooey.
9. ???
10. PROFIT!
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:48 pm

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:^True. Perhaps the Lance is the necessary factor? The Lance of Longinus was key to SEELE's plans (hence why they were pissed off when it went into space) and they went to the trouble of making lots of copies for the MP Evas; in fact 3I actually convinces the original Lance to return from space.. However, rather than being a controlling factor like you suggested, perhaps the Lance is somehow necessary to somehow start up the Impact, hence its role in Adam's CE which possibly led to Kaworu's creation.

Interestingly, Gendo tried to get rid of the Spear (and outright states in Episode 24 that it was an obstacle to reuniting with Yui) which indicates that it's necessary for SEELE's scenario of 3I but would have somehow prevented Gendo's version from occurring, although that's going a bit off-topic.


My thoughts on the subject.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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