The Macross Legacy Thread (Incl. +/DYRL/Zero/Seven/Frontier/Δ)

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Postby Xard » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:46 pm

yeah NO

just fall back into development hell already.
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Postby Tankred » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:53 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:So. . . .How bout that Macross/Robotech movie?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder ... ech-movie/


Time to crack open the helium ^_^

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Postby Squigsquasher » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:13 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:yeah NO

just fall back into development hell already.

Seconded. The thought of "My Time to Be a Star" coming back into vogue is horrific.
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Postby C.A.P. » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:03 pm

If there's no songs, no thanks.
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Postby Ray » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:33 pm

I'm going to play devils advocate here, and say why I think this might actually not be all that terrible, as an anime adaptation, or as a standalone film.

1) James Wan is a fan of both Robotech and the original Macross. He actually went to the studio to ask them for permission to direct the movie because he's a fan. The studio gave him the reins, because their other choice was the jerk who ruined the GI Joe movie, and the studio wants to hedge their bets on a director who has delivered profitable films for them multiple times.

2) James Wan is great at directing a diverse and inclusive ensemble cast.

As his pedigree on both the Fast and Furious franchise and his horror movies goes to show, he's not afraid to cast people of color in lead speaking roles in his movies. Unlike a lot of other Hollywood directors who adapt Anime properties (I'm lookin at you M. Night Shyamalan and Rupert Sanders). Furthermore, Macross/Robotech has a cast full of people of all shades, (not just Mukukoseki Japanese people) so it really lends itself to casting diverse. Furthermore, he's a person of color himself and unlike Shyamalan he practices what he preaches about diversity and inclusion.

Having said that . . . I'm fairly sure the male romantic lead will have to be a white dude so the Studio won't have to sweat over marketing it, so Hikaru is likely going to be replaced with Rick Hunter (ugh). That's just the way the studio system works. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt since he will likely cast most everyone else diverse.

If he whitewashes Minmay though (the REAL main character of Macross), I take back everything I said.

3) He has a history in both Vehicle Choreography from his work on Fast and Furious that lends itself to the mech fight scenes.

He's qualified as far as filmmaking spectacle in this town goes. Furthermore he's not like Michael Bay where he shoves sensory overload or T&A in your face all the time, he knows how to keep his action scenes and his choreography entertaining and engaging. Furthermore he uses a bare minimum of CGI in both Fast and Furious and his horror movies. While he'll likely have to employ more for Robotech/Macross, that at the very least speaks to his pedigree as a filmmaker, and his devotion to his craft.

4) This is pure speculation. But it's likely going to be a pastiche work
.

In other words not a fully accurate adaptation of the plot of either Macross OR Robotech. It's going to take characters, names, and plot elements from both the original Japanese version and the more well known Robotech edits to tell a Semi-original story. Like how the Marvel and DC movies take elements from various storylines and plots in the comics to tell semi-original stories featuring the characters.

Days Of Future Past was very different from the comic book version. But it was still a good movie. Same thing for The Dark Knight, the first two Spider-Man movies etc.

As long as this has spaceship battles, pop Idols, romantic triangles, and above all else a good story I don't think you need to worry. It'll have the name Robotech for marketing purposes, but it will be a Macross movie for all other intents and purposes. At worst, we can at the very least accept it as it's own product and ignore it. At best, it'll be worthy live action adaptation of the Macross franchise that just so happens to bear the name of the edit.

5) This isn't going to ruin Macross for you.

If you are a Macross purist who objects to Robotech getting top billing. Japan is going to keep making Macross movies and TV shows, without the input or influence of the American studios. They likely won't even acknowledge the film. No studio executive is going to barge into your house and smash up your Imported Macross DVD collectors set and make you burn your imported Ranka Lee body pillow at gunpoint. That's yours for the rest of your life.

Furthermore. . . if this movie does well and raises awareness for the original franchise. It could very well lead to Macross getting an English Dub and release here in the states so you wouldn't have to import that DVD box set. True, outside of Japan it would bear the Robotech name for marketing purposes, but it would be Macross in every other respect.

Just a thought. . .
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Postby Squigsquasher » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:37 pm

Wrong.

If a movie released under the name "Robotech" is released in the West then we're going to have yet another generation of idiots who think Macross is called Robotech. Ergo perpetuating Harmony Gold's loathesome legacy and making the lives of actual Macross fans even more unbearable.

The name "Robotech" and everything relating to it needs to be wiped from existance. Macross good, Robotech BAAAD.
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Postby Xard » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:45 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:2) James Wan is great at directing a diverse and inclusive ensemble cast.


So into the rubbish bin it goes.


View Original PostRay wrote:5) This isn't going to ruin Macross for you.


If this'll actually be succesful it will mean there'll be no end to Harmony Gold jewgold diggery. So yes it's going to ruin prospects of Macross outside west forever. Furthermore Robotech should be gracefully be forgotten with passage of time and eventual death of the original Robotech generation, this crap will keep the trademark alive and far better known than Macross for another generation at least. Fuck the noise.
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Postby Tankred » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:18 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:If he whitewashes Minmay though (the REAL main character of Macross), I take back everything I said.


You'll take back your arguments and roll over because one of the main characters in SDF Macross not potentially being the right race? I wish you'd stop with this drivel Ray.

View Original PostRay wrote:5) This isn't going to ruin Macross for you.

If you are a Macross purist who objects to Robotech getting top billing. Japan is going to keep making Macross movies and TV shows, without the input or influence of the American studios. They likely won't even acknowledge the film. No studio executive is going to barge into your house and smash up your Imported Macross DVD collectors set and make you burn your imported Ranka Lee body pillow at gunpoint. That's yours for the rest of your life.


Yes but they'll smash any chance of Macross getting a fucking proper release in an unedited format.
View Original PostRay wrote:
Furthermore. . . if this movie does well and raises awareness for the original franchise. It could very well lead to Macross getting an English Dub and release here in the states so you wouldn't have to import that DVD box set. True, outside of Japan it would bear the Robotech name for marketing purposes, but it would be Macross in every other respect.

Just a thought. . .


Harmony Gold has had its rancid claws on the rights to Macross outside of Japan for over two decades now, and even then their stake is incredibly dubious, i.e. FASA bought a license for the BattleTech franchise to use SDF Macross designs directly from the makers, but FASA and its descendants don't use them because of the grief that could and has been caused by the aforementioned parasites. Ray, can anyone really justify Harmony Gold not doing anything with the rights to a large popular franchise like Macross for so long?

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Postby Squigsquasher » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:24 pm

The hilarious thing is that aside from Claudia (black), Hikaru, Misa, Kakizaki and various extras (Japanese) and Minmay (half-Chinese) virtually the entire cast of Macross is white.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:05 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Having said that . . . I'm fairly sure the male romantic lead will have to be a white dude so the Studio won't have to sweat over marketing it, so Hikaru is likely going to be replaced with Rick Hunter (ugh). That's just the way the studio system works. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt since he will likely cast most everyone else diverse.


I have no idea how you get that impression, since this is a Robotech adaptation. Macross was diverse -- it gave us Hikaru and Misa, but also Claudia, Roy, Global, Minmay, etc. But the Robotech adaptation whitewashed everyone who wasn't specifically called out as black or Asian -- i.e., everyone but Claudia and Minmay. There will be no diversity to speak of because in the Robotech version of the show everyone but those two is white. It's possible he'll add or change characters, of course, but if you're expecting a lot of Asians here you'll likely be disappointed since the source material (i.e. Robotech, not Macross) only had one.
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Postby C.A.P. » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:46 pm

On episode 20 of 7 right now.

I'm starting to laugh harder and harder as it keeps going. I fear what the show will do to me ten episodes from now.

EDIT: So I finished Macross 7 hours ago (as of July 7th). I had so much fun watching this show, I looked back at Xard's old review of the series and went ahead and wrote my own review. I hope you guys like it, because I had a lot of fun writing this.

SPOILER: Show
Macross 7: Powering the Dream since 1995

(Disclosure: I'm using another review as the jumping off point for this one. It’s also very Mark Twainish in that I go off at points out of nowhere, so prepare yourself when that happens)

Macross 7 is the type of anime that you rarely come across: It has nothing to say, has no intentions in hiding that fact, and has no qualms in you mocking its' insanity. Sure, the story has a beginning (a rock band are nobodies), middle (they're somebodies), and end (They save the world), but it's just pins to other means. Those means don't even matter that much, because there is no purpose at all, and with a lack of purpose comes an abundance of mindlessly controlled mayhem. To think that there is any deeper meaning to this show is to think it represents something it's not: A Macross series that aims to entertain than tell a story.

What makes it falter in its' failure is how twofaced the ambition was to the realities of TV animation. I have no idea on how much Kawamori had to the series (besides mecha designs, aspects of the story, and various other positions), but there's a level of creator distance there's not present in any Macross series before or after, and that distance is felt subconsciously.

Putting the series at 49 episodes puts the show in a position of expanding its' universe much more so than other series (it's the longest by far: 49 episodes vs. Frontier's 25 or the original series's 39), but the atmosphere never develops where the world exists beyond Fire Bomber. What should have been a world for older audience to get invested in instead becomes a formulaic process that appeals to children/children at heart.

Using pointers from another review, I'll offer some thoughts on each element.

In my mind, the show was split up in various acres: The rocking songs finding an mainstream audience, the love triangle, the villain's desire to receive his dream, Bassara's purpose in life, Mylene's search to be an adult, the town learning to survive in space, and so on. Through these arcs are various repeating stories that are never told: Why the Flower Girl wants Bassara's attention and why she wants to give him flowers, Veffidas's vow of silence (expect three other times), Ray's willingness to go around with some rock band (that involves drinking), etc.

All of these stories have their internal logic, but nowhere is there an external thematic connection to all--or at least, did not present itself in a way that invites deeper analysis overtly.

In remembering this show's story, all I can recall is a future where people and aliens have learn to love one another, but there's another set of aliens who have not understood that love and, like devils, have superficial feelings for one another that only the power of rock songs can show them the way. Along the way, we learn about how a rock band learns the power of teamwork, some egomaniac feeling feelings that he refuses to think about and learns to overcome said feelings, some teenager learning to not be a kid, and his arranged lover trying hard to earn his approval and his own happiness. In all 49 episodes, these story points hold the story together, but ANIMA SPIRITIA, it doesn't mean much when you realize that these stories pace along with the knowledge that it has 49 episodes to its' name. So what we're left with? Singing songs bringing everything together. It's just as convoluted and 1990s sing-along crazy as you think it is.

(Oh, and don't worry about the tech, it doesn't really matter)

Remove all of these pointers and you have something either wonderful or horrifying: 3/4th of the show is filler, and that filler is hard to ignore. You can't just skip them and think you can get by wonderfully. It's not that kind of anime.

What's that formula? Well, I'm terrible in remembering stories, but I do recall Fire Bomber refusing to play Fire, or Bomb, the villain proclaiming what they're going to do this week (something involving a dream or something), the villain going out and wrecking things up, the Fire Bomber playing and rocking, a siren, JUMPING ON THE PLANET JUMP, boom, villain runs away and the day is saved. Thanks to Fire Bomber. Let's hope they enjoy their rise in fame, because there's a lot of fake scandals and personal baggage to take care of. Also hoping that Mylene singing a song about friends won't get on your nerves, because it's a very powerful lesson that involves seeing her in various credits positions.

Sorry, the repetition got the best of me. But that's what happens when you go into this story: No progression, no growth. And instead of empathy, you get tears. And it's not the feels kind, I assure you (unless near deaths and character scarifies gets you crying like a new horror fan realizing that his favorite character now has a bunch of sequels he has to go through).

Nothing at stake results in thrills and chills that blend together, and instead of jumping at joy at the idea of robots fighting other robots, you're just waiting for the good robots to beat up the bad robots and call it an episode, again and again. With no worries comes no consistent nail biting out of bodyness; just tedium of the harmless kind.

The structure has no love or beauty, just body bones--you never think about it until the show reminds you it exists through song. Or stock footage. It makes no difference, it's Macross, and To Macross is To Remember Love. Or the number 7. I prefer the latter.

The formula changes as the show goes on, but by the time the show does it, it's too late; we're halfway through and without Bassara singing about your love heart is to admit that the formula didn’t work, and it didn’t. Sivil, the Protodevilin (oh, I forgot to say that Protodevilin’s are the alien villain names. Cool, isn’t it?) that pretty much kicks the formula into its’ rear so it can create another formula involving sucking up people’s spirit as Spirita, because in Macross Alien World, ghosts exists and they are soul currency to an alien species. Bassara must have a rockin ghost within in, because every time Sivil tries to suck it, it results in her having an existential crisis and run away, and it leads to Bassara having his own existential crisis that involves mountains. Is it too late to tell you that this stream of consciousness is full of spoilers, or have you gotten the memo already?

Speaking of consciousness, a lot of the episodes have these “LAST TIME ON MACROSS 7” in the form of narration about the Macros mythos, stuff that happens in previous episodes, and material like that. They go two ways: Either they are part of the overall Macross 7 experience, or a narration nuisance that tells you the story that you just witness. The continuity has a funny way of telling you that stories are meant to be repeated over and over and over again, so it’s funny that the series does not go out of its’ way to connect itself within the episodes itself. The script is very peculiar in its’ speed as well: There’s moments where a specific moment (like, say, one of the characters singing one of their chart topping hits) is given a minute of screentime for them to sing, but the tone, pacing, and so on is always the same. Whatever pace the song is, it’s always that way. If you listen to it on a CD, boom, same on the show. If you hear an echo in the singing, that’s probably one reason why: It’s from the CD recording, not from an individual recording. Those are rare, about as rare as a Coyote catching a Road Runner; you’ll be surprised that it actually happens at all.

Is there anything in the story that surprised me? Well, there’s the Mayor Milla applying herself in a contest in a bathing suit and becoming a temporary captain. But does it matter? No, of course not. Barely anything in Macross 7 matters, and when it does, you’re projecting something that’s not there. If it is there, then pretend you never read this part: it doesn’t matter at all then.

So in the end, does it matter? Not really: The story? Full of lessons about friendship, love, music, rock bands, and intergalaxy peace that symbolizes the hope and wonder our own world can take away. But I don’t know anyone from the NASA who watches Macross 7, so anyway, The Filler? Sits there and mocks you for caring. The writing? Takes the drama like a joke and takes the jokes very seriously. Logic? Sorry, Fire Bomber isn’t interested in logic. And neither does anybody working this show.

Oh, I forgot to talk about the characters themselves. Well, if you take what I just said into consideration, what could be said for everybody? Well that’s easy. We have characters that only think for themselves, characters who feel nothing but a passion for a specific purpose, characters that sit around and tell you what’s coming your way and why you should or should not go forward, characters that speak a phrase over and over again like they’re Pocket Monsters waiting to be Pokemon, and characters that wail their arms in a motion that says “Look at me viewer, I exist to bring life, yet I don’t have life myself.”

Funny that for a franchise offering compelling characterizations, Macross 7 has static characters that would be right at home in a 1940s Columbia cartoon. If that’s too harsh, how about Famous cartoons? I’ve read that people are starting to appreciate those cartoons a lot more lately.

Before I keep making more asides, let’s talk Bassara for a while. Now what a character this guy has: He goes through character growth when an alien comes and tries to kill him, yet before that, other aliens do nothing to affect his self-arrogance. He tries to convince people to listen to his song, and despite the world being against him, time and time again, he has success and his arrogance ends up saving the day. He doesn’t approve of violence, but is prone to go recklessness if his song is never in spirit within him. All he cares about is himself, and the show, well, showchases that behavior is a way that suggest wonderment and awe, where the reality and disbelief is taken for granted. That’s going to rub people the wrong way, so watch out, Bassara’s a real go getter. And by go getter, I mean getting a go at your patience, which will be put to the test. Bassara is a character you either idealize for existing, or despise for representing a part of man that others take for granted. Take your pick, as long as you get to listen to my song.

As for Mylene? Don’t worry, she’s not afraid to pick a fight with him and tell him on how much a jerkface he is. But good old Fire Bomber never learns, because Bassara takes it for granted and continues to do his thing, and Mylene will learn to accept that about Bassara and learn to love him. What is this triangle for? I have no idea, but apparently it involves a teenager knowing the answer to love at age 15.

What to take away from the characters? Accept that music is within you and celebrate it: Don’t ask questions, just have fun! The villains have to learn this the hard way. They have accepted their sexuality, but they certainly haven’t accepted themselves in their dialogue, acting, and designs. The repetition within asks acceptance, but the reality asks for forgiveness.

Speaking of repetition, did you notice how the animation recycles itself over and over again? I certainly did, and the anime had no problem that I saw it like it was some kind of religious ritual. What it lacks in off model monasteries makes up in limited singing mouth movements, same cels, same recaps, and a sense that you’ll spot the same footage of Ray rocking over in different lighting. If you’re brave, you can make it a drinking game with your buddies, provided they can get past their sense of déjà vu and accept their place in anime purgatory. Have fun spotting great animation among the servable animation, because beyond the Studio 4C-animated opening, it’ll be rare. Direction is like that too; creator Kawamori is not in the director chair, and it’s going to feel it when you see the cuts, editing, writing, and framing not feeling something out of the original series, Frontier, and Plus.

Power of the music? Works in context of the series, and it fits the motif that is established within the story. But in that context comes a starling realization: There is no background music or score written for the series. Whenever music is in the series, it’s to be sung by Fire Bomber (or the fans) and is set to carry the soul of the series. Sure, there’s song from other Macross series, but they’re not important: they’re just there for what atmosphere is present. While the discography serves well and be pleasant out of context, it is luscious to think of an anime where just the songs of a particular genre is the only musical structure. It does no one favors but the people who make the CDs, which will probably befuddled some collectors out there.

Do the songs work within the series? Sure, but again lies the repetition problem: if you like the songs, it will probably lead to no problem. If you don’t, well, bear and grin in when you hear it 10 plus more times.

What about the robots? They’re fine, but do not be surprised when you take a look at them and think of other giant robots of the Power Ranger kind. The characters design are another story, and that’s getting past the costume designs. Let’s just say that many characters embrace their inner spectator and leave it at that.

Action? Well, there’s a lot of flying, blasting, political discussions, and crashing through buildings to raise up government funding, but good luck getting me to remember any of it in an individual basis.

And the love triangle? What Love Triangle? You expect me to take a 14/15 year old to choose between an egomaniac luck of the draw who only thinks for himself and an older gentleman who only exists to please anybody and hates anyone who gets in his way of pleasing others? I know love triangle are a part of the show’s DNA, but there’s no harm in not focusing on that aspect, and the show must have thought that: it barely has an effect to the story, and any effect it does bring to the story could have easily been something else besides “true love.” I would of thought “best friends not knowing how love works” had the show not told me the love triangle was an element of the story.

Oh Macross 7, you wanted to look at other people besides otakus, and look what happened. But you know what? I would not have you any other way. You’ve made me laugh (hard), you’ve got me to lip sync to your songs, and you’ve got me to care too much.

Macross 7 is bad, and that’s really good. It’s easily the most entertaining of the series, where the bloated writing, looping animation, and one-note characterizations brings an experience that defines heart and soul without brains. If you’re a Macross fan, try it and push your luck. If you’re an anime fan, there’s no anime like this to come for a long time, and it’s better to jump in now than later. If you’re somebody, watch some clips and see if it’s your thing. It was my thing, and I can say without hesitation that it is one of the greatest bad anime I’ve seen. Power to the dream, power to the music.

P.S. There is good characterizations and elements of good storytelling within Macross 7. Maybe I’ll tell you that some other time, oh my friends.


EDIT 2: Now I got around to seeing the MACROSS PLUS movie. I'll probably come back and talk about it more, but right now, here's my new first impressions.
SPOILER: Show
Lot of thoughts went through my head as I revisited that series (I saw the OVAs a long time ago and barely remembered any of it), and it severely affected me a lot more than I expected. If the Cowboy Bebop crew only worked on this movie, I still would of considered them to be geniuses.

Unlike the other movies, this one had an interesting relationship between the machines and the human that control them, where that relationship was questioned and pondered with the question over said machines could be themselves and refuse to take command. There's also the dangers of artificial life and how that can affect a future of 2040 AD, but presents it in a more understated and down to earth matter than most takes of A.L.

Take into account of the grounded animation, mystical OST from Yoko Kanno, and a more adult take of the franchise (co-directed by the creator himself), and you have yourself a wonderful mecha movie. If you want to see the franchise at its' best, you'll hear no argument from me if you want to start with PLUS.

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Postby AR-99 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:44 pm

^Booty and blood is what sticks out in my mind vs. the original OAVs.

That being said, I don't prefer one version over the other as I feel that they complement each other.
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Postby C.A.P. » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:09 am

Macross Zero is done. Very nice surprise from Kawamori: I'm starting to notice that he's very interested in the relationship between man and culture, and Zero is probably him at his most direct in expressing said relationship. In it, it explains how one can interact with said culture with sympathy, love, and awe. If nothing else, it's a very respectable prequel to the original series, and I'm glad to know that the man was still capable of creating such a story 2 decades after the fact.

All that's left is Macross II. We'll see how that'll treat me.

EDIT: And as of the 29th, Macross II is done. I have now become a Macross connoisseur, watching it all and giving them a chance. It took longer than I expected, but I'm happy to be there.

This series is an interesting one. After giving it thought, I realized that the story doesn't reach the ambitions of the original series, having solid story structure like Plus, not being quite as energetic as Frontier, etc. But that what's unique about it, barring having the original creator involved in any captivity: What it lacks in creativity, it makes up in craft. Being streamlined into 6 OVA episode (or a movie), we have a Macross story that doesn't try to be what is should be, but instead embrace what it is: A story about a bunch of young people learning more about the world around him and embrace it for what it is. Add with some solid direction, gorgeous designs, and a delightful score by pre-Evangelion Shiro Saigsu and you have a intriguingly mundane Macross series. I say give it a chance.
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Postby soul.assassin » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:56 pm

XARD!



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Postby C.A.P. » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:55 am

Coming out of my leave to say this.

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW :boingy: :boingy: :boingy: :boingy: :boingy: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :leekspin: :leekspin: :leekspin: :leekspin: :leekspin: :leekspin: :leekspin: :derp: :derp: :derp: :derp: :derp:

See ya.
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Postby Lavinius » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:56 pm

What kind of Chinese does Minmay speak?
I need to know for reasons.
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Re: The Macross Legacy Thread (Incl. +/DYRL/Zero/Seven/Frontier)

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Postby Gus Hanson » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:52 pm

I watched episode 4 of Frontier today which can be summed up in two words: BOUNCING HOOTERS!!!!! HOOWEE, they were all over the place and I know this will come off as wrong but seeing such a delightful jailbait like Ranka in that bikini singing Minmay's most famous song was AWESOME.
Gundam Wing is the N-Sync of mecha anime. - NemZ

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Re: The Macross Legacy Thread (Incl. +/DYRL/Zero/Seven/Frontier)

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Postby Tankred » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:35 pm

Xard was showing me this nice article on Kawamori yesterday: http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder ... r-credits/

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Re: The Macross Legacy Thread (Incl. +/DYRL/Zero/Seven/Frontier)

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Postby Fireball » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:48 am

View Original PostTankred wrote:Xard was showing me this nice article on Kawamori yesterday: http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder ... r-credits/

That was such an interesting interview that saved my boring work day. I was not aware how influental he was outside of Macross. God bless this man's imaginative mind.
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Re: The Macross Legacy Thread (Incl. +/DYRL/Zero/Seven/Frontier)

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Postby Gus Hanson » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:18 am

Saw the first episode of Delta this morning. The colors here are very bright especially when it comes to the Walkure unit singing. Looks like the triangle this time around will be Hayate/Freyja/Mirage Jenius and i'll go ahead and call it right now that Hayate and Mirage get overcome by the love bug by series end.
Gundam Wing is the N-Sync of mecha anime. - NemZ


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