Asuka's role in 3.0 & Beyond

[CJD]

We can agree that they didn't have positive consequences in 3.0 though, both characterization-wise and plotwise (obviously).

Charaterization wise? Not really, I don't think we could agree on that. Plot wise? Yea, we can agree that Shinji's actions in the climax of 2.22 didn't result in good things happening.

But I'm not going to get in an argument about the former, not here nor in the appropriate thread.

[Bagheera]

Needless to say, I think a few of us disagree with you here.

You might, but Q doesn't. I think a lot of the cognitive dissonance surrounding Shinji's treatment in Q comes from failing to note that Anno doesn't necessarily see the climax of Break in the same way you do. The way it was shot says reflects Misato's reactions: elation and first, followed by horror. Q bears this out, be it in Misato's reserve or Asuka's anger or Kaworu's quiet condemnation. All of them say "this is your fault" and that's what drives him to his actions at the end. You may or may not think that's legitimate, but the message in the actual films is consistent and clear.

Again, you don't have to agree or disagree with it. But in terms of simple cause and effect Anno's been quite clear about the matter.

[CJD]

Ahh you sly goose you. You almost had me Bags, I was working through your post and ready to keep this going before I caught myself. I don't know what it is about you, man, but you always manage to push just the right buttons to break my resolve. I think it's that you often come off too absolutist for my tastes. But anyway, I'm not doing this again. I'm not doing it in the Shinji thread, where it belongs anyway, and I'm sure as hell not doing it in the Asuka thread. Instead this is all you get.

You might, but Q doesn't

Again, I think a few of us disagree with you here.

All of them say "this is your fault"

And none of them, short of possibly Kaworu (who in typical Kaworu fashion speaks in flowers and poetry), have the knowledge we, as the viewer, have. That's why it's so easy to label them as fuck ups. I can shit on Shinji non stop for abandoning Wille, or I can acknowledge that the basis for that shitting on would be that I know Misato is supposed to be the "good guy," or at the least that Gendo is a manipulative prick. I can shit on Misato for not treating Shinji better, and I did do that originally, or I can acknowledge that Misato's position is much more complicated. And I can shit on Shinji for causing 3I or I can actually open my 2.22 file and watch the climax myself, and watch Shinji in 3.0, and come to the interpretation that I don't think he's got much blame on him at all, really.

Now, as for Anno, well I think it might be a bit too soon to try and figure him out just yet. Not that it matters, really, because the reason Shinji's role in 3I will likely never reach a consensus is the exact same reason I don't give much thought to whether Anno think's he's to blame or not: It's a question of our individual morals. Our interpretation of Shinji's blame is based on one of the most subjective aspects of our individuality: our personal morals, ethics, and beliefs in regards to guilt and fault. I mean, we, as a community, can't even agree on whether Shinji consciously, unconsciously, or without any involvement short of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, caused 3I. If we can't even agree on that how are we supposed to agree on the moral conundrum presented by 3I? How are we supposed to reach a consensus about this when the basis for our disagreement is that we each believe different things, and yet those different things are simultaneously self evident to each of us?

[Bagheera]

And none of them, short of possibly Kaworu (who in typical Kaworu fashion speaks in flowers and poetry), have the knowledge we, as the viewer, have.

Worth noting that he's the only one who says, flat out, "this is your fault." And when Shinji denies it, as many viewers do, he follows up with the obvious question: "If not you, then who?" Taken alone it could be explained away, but when taken with everything else -- the bomb collar, Asuka's anger, Misato's treatment of him, Mari's comments -- it's hard to mistake Anno's intent.

That's why it's so easy to label them as fuck ups. I can shit on Shinji non stop for abandoning Wille, or I can acknowledge that the basis for that shitting on would be that I know Misato is supposed to be the "good guy," or at the least that Gendo is a manipulative prick. I can shit on Misato for not treating Shinji better, and I did do that originally, or I can acknowledge that Misato's position is much more complicated. And I can shit on Shinji for causing 3I or I can actually open my 2.22 file and watch the climax myself, and watch Shinji in 3.0, and come to the interpretation that I don't think he's got much blame on him at all, really.

I don't shit on any of them (well, except Gendo -- fuck him), but I'm also not trying to say any of them are good or bad. I'm just noting that there's a reason Anno set things up the way he did and it doesn't make a lick of sense if Shinji's supposed to come off as blameless. One way or another he's supposed to be accountable for 3I; once you look at it like that everything else falls into place.

I suspect this might be a Japanese thing. They seem to look at matters of responsibility and such in different ways than we do, what with being a much more collectivist society, and it'd be interesting to get a typical Japanese's take on the matter. Too bad Symbv isn't around to tell us these things. :(

Now, as for Anno, well I think it might be a bit too soon to try and figure him out just yet. Not that it matters, really, because the reason Shinji's role in 3I will likely never reach a consensus is the exact same reason I don't give much thought to whether Anno think's he's to blame or not: It's a question of our individual morals.

It actually matters quite a bit if we're to understand the story that's being told. As I said, that doesn't mean we have to agree with it, but we do have to understand it to get what's actually being said. Once Anno's intent becomes clear we can then ask two things: first, did he successfully convey his message, and second, is the message valid? And then we can get into death of author and start looking at what other things the work might say that Anno might not have realized or intended, and think about other valid ways to interpret it, and so on.

One thing we have to remember (I get caught up on this all the time myself) is that Evangelion is not aimed at us. Instead it's aimed at a Japanese audience, and that means the tools it uses to say what it wants to say are ones with which we're not entirely familiar. Getting back on topic a bit (heh) I often find myself casting Asuka's role in a feminist light. She had an awful lot of individual agency in NGE, which was really cool to me. But was it intended? Did Anno set out to make her that way, or was it a matter of happenstance? Is Shikinami's portrayal in Break supposed to contrast with that, a more conservative and vanilla take on the character? Does the fact that she, like Mari and Misato, is operating from a position of strength in Q redeam her lackluster first showing? She's fierce and strong now. Fantastic! But what does it mean? It's really hard to say. None of the female characters are particularly sexualized this time around, and none of them seem to tap into typical anime tropes, so I don't know how to read it. But since I'm not Japanese that's not terribly surprising.

One thing I think one might validly say about Break and Q is that Anno flubbed the delivery a bit. If he wanted Shinji to be deluded about his guilt he should have made the contrast in Break more plain, and maybe tweaked the scenes with Wille a bit to emphasize the reasoning behind the crew's motivations. Extra and/or extended scenes might really have helped there. Even still I think what's there works well enough; it wouldn't with the Wille scenes alone, but with the Kaworu follow-up it's pretty locked down. But then, Anno's always liked to leave things a bit ambiguous, so maybe that was intentional. Who knows?

Our interpretation of Shinji's role is based on one of the most subjective aspects of our individuality: our personal morals, ethics, and beliefs in regards to guilt and fault. I mean, we, as a community, can't even agree on whether Shinji consciously, unconsciously, or without any involvement short of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, caused 3I. If we can't even agree on that how are we supposed to agree on the moral conundrum presented by 3I? How are we supposed to reach a consensus about this when the basis for our disagreement is that we each believe different things, and yet those different things are simultaneously self evident to each of us?

Why do we have to? I'm talking about what Anno's saying, not about whether or not it's valid. You're skipping steps bro!

My only wish, honestly, is that we could keep it in the Shinji thread. At least that way I know what I'm getting into so I can prepare myself so I don't get baited.

"Baited" suggests I'm trying to sucker you into a slugfest or something, which is not the case. All I'm trying to do here is explain my position. I'd actually rather avoid long, drawn-out debates as much as you would, so long as I'm understood somehow.

[cyharding]

I suspect this might be a Japanese thing. They seem to look at matters of responsibility and such in different ways than we do, what with being a much more collectivist society, and it'd be interesting to get a typical Japanese's take on the matter. Too bad Symbv isn't around to tell us these things. :(

I don't remember the exact word for it, but the Japanese do have a concept that translates to "moral responsibilty." From my understanding of it, a person in a position of authority takes responsiblity for wrongs that happened under his authority even though he was not a participent in those wrongs (for example, a boss resigning his position for something that was caused by those working under him, but he had no part in it). So while Shinji's fault in a Western sense is debatable; in the Japanese sense, because he was in Unit 01 while the Eva began 3I, it is his fault.

Then again, I haven't seen the camrip, so I could be completely wrong.

[CJD]

I suspect this might be a Japanese thing. They seem to look at matters of responsibility and such in different ways than we do, what with being a much more collectivist society, and it'd be interesting to get a typical Japanese's take on the matter. Too bad Symbv isn't around to tell us these things.

Now that's something I don't recall seeing suggested elsewhere. Surely I'm mistaken, it seems so obvious now that you point it out...

"Baited" suggests I'm trying to sucker you into a slugfest or something, which is not the case. All I'm trying to do here is explain my position. I'd actually rather avoid long, drawn-out debates as much as you would, so long as I'm understood somehow.

I was unable to find a better word at the time, hence why I removed it after giving it thought (also it sounded much too preachy for my tastes, I've got no right to tell people where they should post, let alone for something so selfish). But yes, you're right, the blame for it falls on me and my less than stellar self restraint when it comes to getting into arguments. I was not trying to imply you, or anyone else for that matter, attempts to bait people into arguments.

...In retrospect, "sucked in" might have sufficed.

I don't remember the exact word for it, but the Japanese do have a concept that translates to "moral responsibilty." From my understanding of it, a person in a position of authority takes responsiblity for wrongs that happened under his authority even though he was not a participent in those wrongs (for example, a boss resigning his position for something that was caused by those working under him, but he had no part in it). So while Shinji's fault in a Western sense is debatable; in the Japanese sense, because he was in Unit 01 while the Eva began 3I, it is his fault.

Welp, fuck me. Discuss Shinji all you want guys, something extremely good came out of this conversation. Like I said, it seems so obvious in retrospect but it never dawned on me to look at it from this angle (denseness, etc). Though I am now curious what the reaction/interpretation is in Japan at the moment, in regards to Shinji specifically of course.

[arkiel]

I don't remember the exact word for it, but the Japanese do have a concept that translates to "moral responsibilty." From my understanding of it, a person in a position of authority takes responsiblity for wrongs that happened under his authority even though he was not a participent in those wrongs (for example, a boss resigning his position for something that was caused by those working under him, but he had no part in it). So while Shinji's fault in a Western sense is debatable; in the Japanese sense, because he was in Unit 01 while the Eva began 3I, it is his fault.

Then again, I haven't seen the camrip, so I could be completely wrong.

Sounds more like that would make Gendo responsible. Which may explain the NERV / WILLE split. I recall the head of Square left the company after Spirit Within because of that failure (and took all his money with him, precipitating the Square Enix merger).

Erm, and TOPIC, I guess.

[esselfortium]

Heh... maybe he was temporarily in a hospital ward and she shlicked over his comatose body?

You keep posting this. The answer is still no.

[CJD]

I'm sensing some animosity, essel. I don't suppose my radar's broken, is it?

You keep posting this. The answer is still no.

I'm sorry, I do? I don't recall ever posting it before. Mind to tell me where I did? The only similar instance that comes to mind is this post by Darkwing, to which I responded with this. I suppose it's possible I'm forgetting an instance, I'll be the first to admit my memory isn't very reliable, but to say I "keep posting it"... well, quite frankly, I feel a little insulted by it, especially since I can't recall posting it before even once, let alone enough to warrant that accusation.

I'd also suggest you learn to take a joke, because if you seriously think I'm either expecting or wanting a scene of Asuka, or any character for that matter, masturbating...

[Bagheera]

I seem to recall that happening in at least one fanfic though. Can't remember the name offhand.

[CJD]

I seem to recall that happening in at least one fanfic though. Can't remember the name offhand.

Wouldn't surprise me. I'd also imagine there's stand alone fan art of it and doujins involving it, though I can't recall ever seeing any off the top of my head.

Again, though, I'm just joking with it. While I wouldn't be opposed to it on principle (poor girl's stuck in the body of a teenager, those hormones can't be convenient) I also doubt I'd have any particular fondness for it short of "Holy shit I can't believe Anno did that." I also can't fathom how it'd fit in the narrative, though 3.0 has taught me not to rule anything out, ever, when it comes to Eva.

--------


Anyway, while I wait for essel to respond I suppose I should ask it here since I didn't get an answer in the Rebuild forum. Does anyone know if the pilot's birthdays are the same in Rebuild as they are in NGE? I ask because of this quote from the wiki in regards to Soryu's age:

Going by Asuka's birthday, she is actually 13 for the majority of the series, as opposed to 14 (the "official age" for Eva pilots). Curiously enough, her age is provided as 14 in official materials, even, in some instances, right in juxtaposition with her birthday (e.g., Evangelion Chronicle)!

If the dates are the same, and there's a 14 year time skip, that'd make Asuka 27 in 3.0, right?

[Na7e]

I seem to recall that happening in at least one fanfic though. Can't remember the name offhand.

Witness by Adam Kadmon.

[Bagheera]

Witness by Adam Kadmon.

Oh yeah, that one. It would be one of his.

[A.T. Fish]

That you treat this like it's some tsundere-slapstick-tough-love creeps me the fuck out.

Agreed, I don't understand how people still see A/S as a viable option.

She does not hate him. She is disappointed in him, angry with him, frustrated by his intense and unabiding selfishness, but she does not hate him. You're taking a momentary outburst of frustration and blowing it out of proportion, while ignoring both the magnitude of his actions and the fact that she has now taken him under her care when she would be well within her rights to just end him without a second thought.

I don't know about hate but at the very least she is indifferent. I don't see her rescuing him as a display of fondness either, she is taking him back to Wille so that they can decide what to do with him, having him in their custody was the plan all along and it is certainly better to take him than leave him there for Gendo to use again. She dresses him and gets him up simply because he's completely inert and won't do these things himself.

Don't forget that the climax of 2.xx was a fakeout, not genuine growth for Shinji. If you're taking something positive from it you missed the point of the exercise.

Just because the outcome was negative you're denying his growth? He certainly grew there, he took action, he did something he wanted instead of following other people's wishes (as Misato put it), yes he inadvertently screwed the world by doing this but you can't deny that, from a psychological point of view, taking action to achieve your goal is better than giving up and doing nothing.

[Mr. Tines]

Agreed, I don't understand how people still see A/S as a viable option.

If they saw it in the original, they're going to be sailing that ship forever.

@Topic
Did I ever say here (as opposed to /a/) that Asuka's role at the end of 3.0 seems to be Misato as in Air. Look out for the gut shot early in 4.0, mark my words.

[CJD]

If they saw it in the original, they're going to be sailing that ship forever.

You betchya Tinesy . Ain't nothin' you or the Kaworu x Shinji/Rei x Shinji fans dominating the Eva Generals can do to sink that ship either. I'm sailing this thing as far as it can go. Choo choo! Yes, I realize trains go choo choo, not boats.

Did I ever say here (as opposed to /a/) that Asuka's role at the end of 3.0 seems to be Misato as in Air. Look out for the gut shot early in 4.0, mark my words.

I expected it in 3.0, honestly. I feel like it would have been a great bait and switch to introduce Kaworu and have the whole movie building up to the point where the viewers expected him to die, only to have it be Asuka who dies. I suppose that wouldn't exactly be original, though, since 2.22 pulled the same thing with Bardiel. Either way I'm steeling myself for it. If Asuka makes it out of 4.0 alive, without using magicks to resurrect her, I'll be genuinely surprised.

[Bagheera]

Agreed, I don't understand how people still see A/S as a viable option.

Has anyone actually been advancing it as such? I haven't seen any shipping options seriously considered at this point. I mean sure, there's all the fanart and such, but I'm talking about people on this site. Apart from Kendrix and Shinchan, of course (and they don't count since they hate A/S anyway).

I don't know about hate but at the very least she is indifferent.

I don't think you can really call it that since she's clearly angry at him. I know it's fashionable to think only in terms of love and hate but the human emotional spectrum does cover a bit more ground than that . . .

I don't see her rescuing him as a display of fondness either, she is taking him back to Wille so that they can decide what to do with him, having him in their custody was the plan all along and it is certainly better to take him than leave him there for Gendo to use again. She dresses him and gets him up simply because he's completely inert and won't do these things himself.

If my position suggested fondness on her part I sincerely apologize. I was arguing that she was not motivated by hate, not that she was motivated by love or anything similar. Arguing against one position is not the same as advocating its opposite, after all . . .

Just because the outcome was negative you're denying his growth?

I'm denying his growth because his actions were motivated by selfishness and petulance, not a genuine desire to save another human being. We kept hearing "give back Rei!" and so on, and when she didn't indicate much interest in coming back he completely ignored her. I wish I had Reichu's picture summary handy since it really nailed the spectacular nature of his fail in that scene.

He certainly grew there, he took action, he did something he wanted instead of following other people's wishes (as Misato put it), yes he inadvertently screwed the world by doing this but you can't deny that, from a psychological point of view, taking action to achieve your goal is better than giving up and doing nothing.

I surely can deny it. Rash action that harms others is not better than inaction that harms no one (and it's on par with inaction that harms others). From a personal standpoint being active and taking command over one's life is a good thing, but there's more at work here than just his personal growth (and as I said, if he's doing it for the wrong reasons it doesn't count).

It's the same as Asuka's decision to pilot Unit 03, actually; was it really about doing a favor for Rei, or was it more about using that as an excuse so she could run away from dealing with people and take shelter in Eva? If it's the latter it's regression, not growth. Shinji's case is no different.

Did I ever say here (as opposed to /a/) that Asuka's role at the end of 3.0 seems to be Misato as in Air. Look out for the gut shot early in 4.0, mark my words.

I can see your logic, but man, having her die for his sake . . . well, she's not Soryu, so I guess it doesn't matter. But even still, man, what a letdown that would be.

[Na7e]

I wish I had Reichu's picture summary handy since it really nailed the spectacular nature of his fail in that scene.

Ask and you shall receive.

lol  SPOILER: Show

I can see your logic, but man, having her die for his sake . . . well, she's not Soryu, so I guess it doesn't matter. But even still, man, what a letdown that would be.

Yeah, I can see it too. Though Shikinami does seem to give off vague Soryu vibes, but that just might be me.

[CJD]

Has anyone actually been advancing it as such? I haven't seen any shipping options seriously considered at this point. I mean sure, there's all the fanart and such, but I'm talking about people on this site. Apart from Kendrix and Shinchan, of course (and they don't count since they hate A/S anyway).

I have but I try not to shove it in people's faces, barring posts like this (and in response to Tines) where I admit to it. At most there was a post while you were gone (I think it was while you were gone) where I take a stand on it, but that was more for myself than anyone else. But yea, while I think the ship still floats I know it's taken on a lot of water, I've just managed to plug all the holes with fanwankery in my head, now I wait till 4.0 to see if we make it to port.

[Kendrix]

I'm denying his growth because his actions were motivated by selfishness and petulance, not a genuine desire to save another human being. We kept hearing "give back Rei!" and so on, and when she didn't indicate much interest in coming back he completely ignored her.

No. This is NOT what happened.
What she said was more out of feelings of insignificance than refusal, because she was concerned for him.
Did you hear that gasp of hers? See her expressions?
She was touched that he'd come for her. And she reached out towards him, as well. She bridged the last few inches. And the following conversation does not indicate any resentment either.
He said that he didn't give a damn about what happens to him, and he endured quite some amount of pain.
Did he even expect to survive?
Judging by that blood fountain, his internal injuries would've done him in if he hadn't happened to liquify...

Again, the meaning behing the books. Why books? Not a group activity she can do with him, not somthing she started because of him, but something that shows he paid attention to her, wondered about what she was thinking/feeling.
And he meant business on the uniqueness thing.
If he wanted a subservient comfort puppet that looks like his mom, there's one right in front of him.

You are missing the point. The point is that he tried and failed like he always feared he would. Direct continuation from just about everything that came before, direct callback to the post-ramiel-train scene, etc.
He was ready to risk getting hurt/doing things wrong, he got that point so it happened.
This is how these movies really start to continue on the classic shows message rather than just reiterate it, see?
At the point it was being made, that scene was stated to be about "salvation", that's what they intended when they made it, they did not seem to think that this level of catastrophe must necessarily follow because they did quite obviously not plan for the timeskip, it must've spontaneously overcome Anno, can't wait for his explanation.

There's no use in you guys deliberately ignoring explicit statements by Shinji's voice actress that he's "a bit stronger in rebuild" [related to how stuff with Kaworu played out differently] and how "initially, the positive developement was still continuing, but then..." etc.

Again, Kaworu does NOT call his intentions into question, he simply tells him, "Uh, but this still was the outcome. Cause and effect relation present" so he can understand the planet he's currently stuck on. Which has been a hellhole for most of the timeShinji has been alive. Calling it what it is it neither morally repugnant nor equal to deliberately destroying it.

Bad stuff does not always just happen to bad people. Bad stuff happening does not mean the person deserved it. That's not how the world works.
Thats part of the hard lesson poor Shinji had to learn in this movie...