Possible interaction between A/S?
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Possible interaction between A/S?
Now first off, PLEASE do not post anything saying that s/r is more likely.
This is to find ways for Shinji and Asuka to interact! One of my ideas was maybe shinj/Asuka is getting their belongings from Misato's apartment and then the other walks in. It could be a little awkward at first, maybe evolving into a Q&A session between the two maybe Asuka could lay a little bit of the blame on Shinji? Post your thoughts and maybe even a little bit of fan-fiction but nothing that takes more then five minutes to think up!
This is to find ways for Shinji and Asuka to interact! One of my ideas was maybe shinj/Asuka is getting their belongings from Misato's apartment and then the other walks in. It could be a little awkward at first, maybe evolving into a Q&A session between the two maybe Asuka could lay a little bit of the blame on Shinji? Post your thoughts and maybe even a little bit of fan-fiction but nothing that takes more then five minutes to think up!
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I don't think Shinji and Asuka will interact at all during Rebuild 3.0. Instead, I believe each will have their own separate adventures.
This is to build tension and drama for when they meet during Rebuild FINAL, when they could very well find each other on opposite sides of an Evangelion battle.
Also, I believe the very last scene of the Rebuild movies to be a Shinji/Asuka scene, but not necessarily the same as in End of Evangelion.
This is to build tension and drama for when they meet during Rebuild FINAL, when they could very well find each other on opposite sides of an Evangelion battle.
Also, I believe the very last scene of the Rebuild movies to be a Shinji/Asuka scene, but not necessarily the same as in End of Evangelion.
I don't think this would be fun. We have had very little screen time with Asuka (well, in considering to other characters), and therefore we have developed very little connection with her. Unless we get some serious screen time with her in 3.0/FINAL (which, I do not doubt), I think they would have jumped the shark a little.
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"Oh my gods, that is awesome. I am inclined to forgive both Grant and the dub in general for that." ~Bagheera
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- esselfortium
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Jornophelanthas wrote:I don't think Shinji and Asuka will interact at all during Rebuild 3.0. Instead, I believe each will have their own separate adventures.
This is to build tension and drama for when they meet during Rebuild FINAL, when they could very well find each other on opposite sides of an Evangelion battle.
Also, I believe the very last scene of the Rebuild movies to be a Shinji/Asuka scene, but not necessarily the same as in End of Evangelion.
Even if Asuka gets a lot of development in 3.0, if she and Shinji are kept out of the same frame for the entire movie there's going to be no believable emotional resonance between them when they meet up again, especially not for a dramatic battle. The few half-baked interactions they had in 2.0 don't add up to nearly enough for this to work.
Stryker wrote:I don't think this would be fun. We have had very little screen time with Asuka (well, in considering to other characters), and therefore we have developed very little connection with her. Unless we get some serious screen time with her in 3.0/FINAL (which, I do not doubt), I think they would have jumped the shark a little.
I agree. Asuka needs more time to interact with other characters, especially Shinji, in order to make whatever dramatic climax for her development effective. I think there will be a lot of time to focus on her (and Mari) during 3.0. Hopefully we get some much needed development of Misato, Ritsuko, and possibly Kaji as well.
Ha! Those sharks in the rearview mirror by now.
As far as Asuka interactions with Shinji, I actually have no idea. The introductory trilogy for Asuka in the original series was totally skipped over in Rebuild. The scenes forcing Shinji and Asuka in the same cockpit, fighting an angel in a synchronized fight, volcano diving, and Asuka leading the team against the Johnny Quest spider all built up a base for their shared experience with each other. None of that's there to act as a touchstone this time so, yeah, I don't know where to go from here.
Why do they even want the Loc-Nar? All it does is melt you.
Brainman wrote:As far as Asuka interactions with Shinji, I actually have no idea. The introductory trilogy for Asuka in the original series was totally skipped over in Rebuild. The scenes forcing Shinji and Asuka in the same cockpit, fighting an angel in a synchronized fight, volcano diving, and Asuka leading the team against the Johnny Quest spider all built up a base for their shared experience with each other. None of that's there to act as a touchstone this time so, yeah, I don't know where to go from here.
Well...they need to add scenes into 2.22 to give her some sort of motivation considering she goes from "Your Special Asuka...thats why you'll always be alone" to wanting Shinji's dick. Some back story should've been in there.
Second, the film goes to great lengths to avoid Shinji & Asuka sharing any sort of screen-time, when they decide to go from friends(Bed Scene) to having such blatant sexual tension the resident dumb jock(Toji) can pick up on it (Married couple). And, those two scenes are back to back, which usually goes with 2.22's god awful pacing problems.
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Oops, you went there.
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@esselfortium, Brainman & Na7e:
I've heard these litanies a dozen times already. You never say anything new, and you present your opinions as facts, not opinions.
(Please note thate I clearly indicate when I am stating an opinion or speculation, by adding "I believe", "in my opinion" or "perhaps" to my statements. You should try that sometimes; it's a lot less confrontational.)
---
@Sachi:
I am NOT saying that I believe Asuka will receive NO screentime in 3.0; I am merely saying that I personally expect there to be no interaction between Asuka and Shinji.
However, this statement does NOT exclude character development in Asuka or Shinji in how I expect 3.0 to turn out, not even in relation to one another. Some possible examples:
- Shinji could brood over Asuka and perhaps hear things about her exploits, wondering about how he thinks or feels about her.
- Asuka could brood over Shinji and perhaps hear things about his exploits, wondering about how she thinks or feels about him.
- Asuka could brood over her own self-image, wondering about how she thinks or feels about herself. Dolls could be involved in this.
- There could be significant flashbacks of Asuka's backstory. While she's still plugged into Ritsuko's apparatus would be a good opportunity for that. The height of a battle, when her plug depth reaches unacceptable levels and she is about to plunge into her Evangelion's core would be another. (If Shinji gets Hell Trains, Asuka could get flashbacks.)
- And how could the audience care more for Asuka? Well, how about if she and Shinji simultaneously save the world from two separate Angel attacks in very different locations?
Why do I believe this? Because it is my opinion that Rebuild-Asuka is less a Freudian representation of Shinji's sex drive, and more of an indiependent character with her own storylines. In this sense, Asuka would become MORE prominent as the movies progress, not less. However, for Asuka's independent storyline to develop, she would have to be taken away from Shinji, or she will always remain a supporting character.
(Which could be why some Asuka-fans don't like 2.0, because Asuka is depicted far more as a supporting character than she was in the original series. However, in this theory this could simply be a setup, to allow for her to shine later on.)
Finally, FINAL would then serve to bring together the Shinji and Asuka storylines, and to have Shinji and Asuka interact as equals in the story. By then, they could be friends, lovers, mortal enemies, or entirely unsure what to make of each other. Regardless, I believe the very last scene of FINAL to be about them.
I could be wrong about all of this, though. I'll eat my humble pie after Shinji and Asuka meet up during the first 15 minutes of 3.0 for a passive-aggressive bickerfest. But certainly not before.
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Jornophelanthas wrote:@esselfortium, Brainman & Na7e:
I've heard these litanies a dozen times already. You never say anything new, and you present your opinions as facts, not opinions.
(Please note thate I clearly indicate when I am stating an opinion or speculation, by adding "I believe", "in my opinion" or "perhaps" to my statements. You should try that sometimes; it's a lot less confrontational.)
[...]
I could be wrong about all of this, though. I'll eat my humble pie after Shinji and Asuka meet up during the first 15 minutes of 3.0 for a passive-aggressive bickerfest. But certainly not before.
Describing relevant aspects of the source material is not being confrontational; in fact, it's about the only way to have a discussion with any factual basis. An emotional attachment is not developed onscreen in the way that your theory requires. 3.0 would need to backtrack and accomplish this somehow in order for a battle against them (in which they're both conscious and in control) to have pathos. No need to get so confrontational about it.
Also, I hardly even post here anymore so I don't know what you're on about.
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esselfortium wrote:Even if Asuka gets a lot of development in 3.0, if she and Shinji are kept out of the same frame for the entire movie there's going to be no believable emotional resonance between them when they meet up again, especially not for a dramatic battle. The few half-baked interactions they had in 2.0 don't add up to nearly enough for this to work.
I actually believe that the primary romance is actually meant to be between Shinji and Asuka, they've just done a lousy job of making it clear by removing the three angel battles in which they bonded.
Be warned, I may occasionally ask stupid questions.
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esselfortium wrote:Describing relevant aspects of the source material is not being confrontational; in fact, it's about the only way to have a discussion with any factual basis. An emotional attachment is not developed onscreen in the way that your theory requires. 3.0 would need to backtrack and accomplish this somehow in order for a battle against them (in which they're both conscious and in control) to have pathos. No need to get so confrontational about it.
The stuff you quote from me, but decided to replace with "[...]" adresses the emotional attachment and development of a relationship between Asuka and Shinji without them interacting directly.
For completeness, I quote myself:
Some possible examples:
- Shinji could brood over Asuka and perhaps hear things about her exploits, wondering about how he thinks or feels about her.
- Asuka could brood over Shinji and perhaps hear things about his exploits, wondering about how she thinks or feels about him.
- Asuka could brood over her own self-image, wondering about how she thinks or feels about herself. Dolls could be involved in this.
- There could be significant flashbacks of Asuka's backstory. While she's still plugged into Ritsuko's apparatus would be a good opportunity for that. The height of a battle, when her plug depth reaches unacceptable levels and she is about to plunge into her Evangelion's core would be another. (If Shinji gets Hell Trains, Asuka could get flashbacks.)
- And how could the audience care more for Asuka? Well, how about if she and Shinji simultaneously save the world from two separate Angel attacks in very different locations?
It's a narrative tool that's also used a lot in cliché romantic comedies: The protagonists re-evaluate their relationships with one another after they become separated, and realize how much they miss/need/appreciate each other. In some cases, they don't fall in love (or realize they had fallen in love) until after the break-up. The empty space left by the other becomes a stand-in for the person him-/herself.
Let's apply this to Shinji and Asuka.
- From what we've seen, Asuka clearly appreciates Shinji and has a crush on him, but does not realize this herself. She wants his attention (and likes his food for that reason), but can't get herself to admit why she wants his attention, not even to herself. She ended up locking up her feelings by piloting Unit-03, but look where that got her.
After reawakening and finding everything has changed, she could come to grips with both her past and what Shinji means to her.
The only obstacle left would be Rei.
- Shinji does not show much about his opinion about Asuka from the moment he stops being irritated by her. However, his berserk at the 10th Angel ("Zeruel") seems at least partly fueled by anger and regret at having failed Asuka (and now Rei as well). He was tempted to take the easy way out by staying with Rei and starting Third Impact, but this was prevented by Kaworu.
After re-emerging from Unit-01, Shinji needs to re-evalute everything he stands for. He has learned that he can realize his wishes, but that he may also come to regret them. Currently, Asuka represents all his failures and shortcomings, but perhaps interacting with Kaworu will help him overcome those, which will allow him to see Asuka as a person again, as a person he misses.
Especially if Rei were not to return from Unit-01.
You posted in this thread to bash the Rebuild, in a way that you have practiced a lot over the last years, didn't you?
(Though admittedly you have been posting less actively during recent months, as far as I can tell.)
Jornophelanthas wrote:@esselfortium, Brainman & Na7e:
I've heard these litanies a dozen times already. You never say anything new, and you present your opinions as facts, not opinions.
Please note thate I clearly indicate when I am stating an opinion or speculation, by adding "I believe", "in my opinion" or "perhaps" to my statements. You should try that sometimes; it's a lot less confrontational.
Using qualifiers like "I think", "in my opinion", and "seems like" weakens any statement. They're pillow phrases that soften the impact of your own words. On an internet forum, there's no reason to avoid saying how you actually feel about something. As esselfortium said, it's not confrontational to present your statement strongly. We're just talking about these cartoon robot movies after all. Confrontational language would include insults, and I haven't seen that at all in this topic so far. Nothing to get your feelings hurt over anyway.
You posted in this thread to bash the Rebuild, in a way that you have practiced a lot over the last years, didn't you?
Not everyone was into 2.0. It shouldn't be seen as a problem to say so.
Why do I believe this? Because it is my opinion that Rebuild-Asuka is less a Freudian representation of Shinji's sex drive, and more of an indiependent character with her own storylines. In this sense, Asuka would become MORE prominent as the movies progress, not less. However, for Asuka's independent storyline to develop, she would have to be taken away from Shinji, or she will always remain a supporting character.
(Which could be why some Asuka-fans don't like 2.0, because Asuka is depicted far more as a supporting character than she was in the original series. However, in this theory this could simply be a setup, to allow for her to shine later on.)
That may very well be the case, but until we actually see it, there's no way to tell of course. However, there's no substantial reason to assume any of that will occur based on what we've seen so far (beyond wishful thinking of course). One problem is that the style of these movies has a distinct Shinji focus in terms of the story. So the problem with separating Shinji and Asuka so they can develop independently would be a challenge, especially considering how much they have to condense in these films. That's actually where a lot of complaints come from unhappy Asukafans. By separating them, Asuka almost became a third wheel in the main cast. The story is about Shinji, so by not being tied together with that, she became too "extra."
They could change that slightly for the next two, but shifting the focus too wildly would be disorienting. But one possible way they could do it is they could take advantage of Shinji being trapped in Unit 01 to shift the focus to a different character for, say, the first half of the film. If they start the movie by following Asuka as she wakes up and is filled in on what's happening at Nerv, we would experience it with her. Big changes in command at HQ wouldn't require exposition, we'd just see her interacting with new people as they are introduced. And then we see her combat an angel under these new circumstances before reintroducing Shinji to the story. That could work.
What esselfortium and us are trying to say is that as far as romance is concerned, there's no evidence that Asuka will be made more significant in the final installments of these films (based upon what we have seen in these movies so far). They could just as easily stick to Shinji, Rei, and Kowrou for the rest of the time while Asuka remains "extra." While I don't have evidence that she won't, I can comment on 2.0 and from what we've seen, 3.0 will have to course-correct to get back on the track you're thinking on.
Seoul Gamer
I actually believe that the primary romance is actually meant to be between Shinji and Asuka, they've just done a lousy job of making it clear by removing the three angel battles in which they bonded.
I have had that thought from time to time as well. The problem I have with it is that if they really wanted to show it, they could have. Unless their intent was to keep it vague so the audience focuses in on what they want to see. They did cut all three of the angel battles in which Asuka was introduced and had experiences with Shinji. It makes me worried for the next installments if removing the entire Asuka introductory trilogy was the final call in 2.0. They could still introduce a lot of new things for her to do in the next ones, but it feels like she's way behind and needs to catch up, instead of starting out even.
Why do they even want the Loc-Nar? All it does is melt you.
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That's because I was responding to your claims of "confrontation" from Brainman, Na7e, and myself.
A thorough line-by-line rebuttal could be entertaining but I'm honestly not in a confrontational kind of mood.
You posted in this thread to bash the Rebuild, in a way that you have practiced a lot over the last years, didn't you?
(Though admittedly you have been posting less actively during recent months, as far as I can tell.)
I'm not "bashing" anything, and my opinion of Rebuild's quality is completely irrelevant to any points I've made in this thread; I'm merely agreeing with several other posters in this thread that your plot theory seems to be at odds with the source material so far.
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I'll post some last responses to the points raised above, and then I'll leave it at that.
It's not how I use these words in my posts, nor how I read them. On this forum, I mostly use them to distinguish between description of and speculation about Evangelion.
In your terms, speculation is inherently weaker than description, and I find it important to point this out through choice of words.
This is a matter of personal taste, but I have seen the three of you post your opinions on Rebuild 2.0, and especially Asuka's part in it, in more than one thread already, with the same arguments every time.
I don't have a problem with your opinions, but sometimes I find the repetitiveness a bit grating.
(And the "you" is meant collectively at the three of you.)
This is the heart of it. We are stuck with speculation for now. So why not enjoy ourselves with it until the next installment?
(At least I hope I present my speculations more coherently and well-argued than wishing for "epic NO moments" or "an ending like Cowboy Bebop".)
Since all the 3.0 preview material we have seen so far includes a significant amount of Asuka (including the closing shot of the "Next Time Preview"), I daresay that we will see a significant amount of Asuka in 3.0.
Also, given fan reactions like your own, it could very well be that Anno did some "course correcting" in the storyline since 2009. He has had ample opportunity, at least.
I expect to be wrong about a lot of things. The fun part is in trying to get it right, and then actually being right in maybe just one tiny little detail (or not).
Brainman wrote:Using qualifiers like "I think", "in my opinion", and "seems like" weakens any statement. They're pillow phrases that soften the impact of your own words. On an internet forum, there's no reason to avoid saying how you actually feel about something. As esselfortium said, it's not confrontational to present your statement strongly. We're just talking about these cartoon robot movies after all. Confrontational language would include insults, and I haven't seen that at all in this topic so far. Nothing to get your feelings hurt over anyway.
It's not how I use these words in my posts, nor how I read them. On this forum, I mostly use them to distinguish between description of and speculation about Evangelion.
In your terms, speculation is inherently weaker than description, and I find it important to point this out through choice of words.
This is a matter of personal taste, but I have seen the three of you post your opinions on Rebuild 2.0, and especially Asuka's part in it, in more than one thread already, with the same arguments every time.
I don't have a problem with your opinions, but sometimes I find the repetitiveness a bit grating.
(And the "you" is meant collectively at the three of you.)
This is the heart of it. We are stuck with speculation for now. So why not enjoy ourselves with it until the next installment?
(At least I hope I present my speculations more coherently and well-argued than wishing for "epic NO moments" or "an ending like Cowboy Bebop".)
Brainman wrote:What esselfortium and us are trying to say is that as far as romance is concerned, there's no evidence that Asuka will be made more significant in the final installments of these films (based upon what we have seen in these movies so far). They could just as easily stick to Shinji, Rei, and Kowrou for the rest of the time while Asuka remains "extra." While I don't have evidence that she won't, I can comment on 2.0 and from what we've seen, 3.0 will have to course-correct to get back on the track you're thinking on.
Since all the 3.0 preview material we have seen so far includes a significant amount of Asuka (including the closing shot of the "Next Time Preview"), I daresay that we will see a significant amount of Asuka in 3.0.
Also, given fan reactions like your own, it could very well be that Anno did some "course correcting" in the storyline since 2009. He has had ample opportunity, at least.
I expect to be wrong about a lot of things. The fun part is in trying to get it right, and then actually being right in maybe just one tiny little detail (or not).
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Jornophelanthas wrote:This is a matter of personal taste, but I have seen the three of you post your opinions on Rebuild 2.0, and especially Asuka's part in it, in more than one thread already, with the same arguments every time.
I don't have a problem with your opinions, but sometimes I find the repetitiveness a bit grating.
(And the "you" is meant collectively at the three of you.)
As I said before, that has literally nothing to do with what we actually posted, despite your repeatedly bringing it up for some reason. I'm fairly certain that Stryker and Sachi are pretty okay with the movie, and they seem to have about the same feelings as I do on the plausibility of what you're suggesting. We're talking about your theory, not about the quality of the film.
The objective and factual lack of two-way onscreen interpersonal development between the characters your theory revolves around is a major hole in your theory's plausibility, not an attack on the film, and your defenses above don't even attempt to fill in the hole.
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(Mild omnislashing since that's basically what the poster seems to be requesting)
Snipping part of a comment one is responding to is good forum decorum. One can respond to part of what you say while not bothering with other parts. And it's not like you need to quote yourself fully 4 comments down on the same page.
They have no relationship with one another. You're not listening and you're not critically evaluating that which you heap praise and acclaim upon.It's a narrative tool that's also used a lot in cliché romantic comedies: The protagonists re-evaluate their relationships with one another after they become separated
Even this isn't true. She acknowledges her feelings clearly in her discussion with Rei at the elevator.From what we've seen, Asuka clearly appreciates Shinji and has a crush on him, but does not realize this herself.
As we've noted tons of times, piloting Eva-03 was the only remotely sensible option for her to take, regardless of whether Shinji was a person or a bagel. She wants to pilot, so she did. Did she try re-evaluating her feelings in a less than honest way on the way up to the Eva? Sure, but that was after she already chose to do it. And her choosing to do it wasn't supposed to be a bad thing. Piloting Eva in Evangelion is not supposed to be something any of the pilots are ever supposed to refuse. They're trying to help save the planet, lest we forget amidst the floundering attempts at making up for proper character development and allowing characters to actually grow around eachother.She ended up locking up her feelings by piloting Unit-03, but look where that got her.
Why should he mean anything to her? He's some guy she's known for a couple weeks. I think she has other shit on her mind by now. Hell I'd love to see a 3.0 where she barely even acknowledges him as anything more than the one that had to defeat the Angel that corrupted her Eva.After reawakening and finding everything has changed, she could come to grips with both her past and what Shinji means to her.
She's not supposed to be obsessed, insane, and bitter about Shinji or regarding Rei. Nor is she supposed to be the antagonist in any regard. If you'd like to address a character development that actually WAS pulled off well in the film, it's that she's come to a peace with Rei. She said, 'Eh, you want him, have him.' and they even exchanged heartfelt pleasantries on the phone afterwards.The only obstacle left would be Rei.
Cite one instance of him being actually irritated by her in the film. This is going to be great. In the series? Sure. In 2.0? There wasn't time allotted.Shinji does not show much about his opinion about Asuka from the moment he stops being irritated by her.
Stop making it personal with another member like this. Take it to PM or something, this petty personal jabbing is out of line, especially when already in the midst of an argument.You posted in this thread to bash the Rebuild, in a way that you have practiced a lot over the last years, didn't you?
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Re: Possible interaction between A/S?
Hater
OT: Shinji doing you know what while Asuka is asleep/unconscious.
Please just call me Ian, "TheFrisky" is more of a title.
"Knowledge seeks no Man."
"Knowledge seeks no Man."
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I apologize if I upset anyone.
My comments were not meant as personal attacks, but rather as expressions of frustration that any discussion about Asuka always ends up being about the quality of the movies, initiated by those who claim the movies are bad. I guess it was my fault to respond to it.
For the rest, I have put forward an occasionally shoddily argued prediction on how Shinji and Asuka could interact in the upcoming movie(s), as is the main topic of this thread.
The various flaws of this prediction have been pointed out, so my part in this discussion is over.
My comments were not meant as personal attacks, but rather as expressions of frustration that any discussion about Asuka always ends up being about the quality of the movies, initiated by those who claim the movies are bad. I guess it was my fault to respond to it.
For the rest, I have put forward an occasionally shoddily argued prediction on how Shinji and Asuka could interact in the upcoming movie(s), as is the main topic of this thread.
The various flaws of this prediction have been pointed out, so my part in this discussion is over.
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