Shinji 2.0 an improvement?

[Azathoth]

Well put, and a good point.

Whatever their states of mind, the pilots -- and the rest of NERV -- are being battered by forces beyond merely human agency. However much they kick against the pricks, all they can do is make slight changes to their trajectory as things inevitably go to hell in a handcart.

And more to the point, the slight changes to their trajectory are definitively what cause things to go to hell all the faster.

If only Rei had been a little less moe...

[simon]

'Evil' doesn't exist... just differing views and motives leading to actions carried out for the benefit of various groups or individuals. I'd do what seemed best for me and/or those I care about and let others judge me as they will.

That said, are you honestly saying that performing actions in self defense that could lead to the death of someone you know is worse than passively allowing an entire city to be sacrificed to potentially stave off a genocidal event... thus insuring that the person in the other cockpit is still going to die either with the city or with the world as a whole if that final plan doesn't work? Shinji was told this harsh truth flat-out by Misato in the first rebuild film.

But humans are not reasonable and just like there's no real evil, the idea of greater good does not exist either when you face danger. You said yourself, you would do whatever seemed best for you and the people you care about, and that's what most of us would do. We don't really give a damn when there's a tsunami and thousands of people die, so why should Shinji care about the world, when his presumably loved one was in danger?

[sephirotic]

But humans are not reasonable and just like there's no real evil, the idea of greater good does not exist either when you face danger. You said yourself, you would do whatever seemed best for you and the people you care about, and that's what most of us would do. We don't really give a damn when there's a tsunami and thousands of people die, so why should Shinji care about the world, when his presumably loved one was in danger?

1) I must reaffirm: Shinji certainly DIDN´T KNOW his action was going to start a Third Impact. Saying "i don´t care about the world" is just a centered view of guilt from not being able to save Asuka and he them projected his ultimate meaning in saving Rei. It's not to be considered in a literal "evil" way.

2) Human beings are Selfish per nature. Projecting our needs in conserving the social is what we cal "altruism". Evil, is those who harm the society with their desire consciently. While Shinji "harms the humanity" by not chosing to pilot because of "secondary" issues (killing is really secondary?), that is not a full conscient, socyopat and understanding choice, is just an imature choice, so he is still an imature 14 years old boy like he should be.

3) Rei wasn´t his loved "ONE", she was just a daring friend, we can´t say that he FELL for her, anyway as i stated in 1), the reason why he says he "doesn´t care" about the world is just figurative and not shouldn´t be used to judge his moral and character as he was in a blast of rage and guilt, fighting a deadly opponent.

4) There is no point in discussing if Shinji is improved in 2.0 or not. So what that there is some pseudofans and evahaters that stat that Shinji is a winny loser? The GREATER purpose of evangelion is exploring psychanalitcaly, the growth of clinic-depressed youngs in their paths to adulthood and pursue of their meaning in life. It´s only natural and realistic that a depressive 14 years old boy old be such a loser like Shinji, fu** off those who think he is a bad person or bad char-designed, those idiots don't understand Evangelion and don't understand how serious a true depression is.

That's all.

[Wissenschaft]

The GREATER purpose of evangelion is exploring psychanalitcaly, the growth of clinic-depressed youngs in their paths to adulthood and pursue of their meaning in life.

*cough*

And what exactly is the conclusion or is Eva just a long rant on depression?

I think Eva is more complex than to be boiled down to that. It is a character study but not limited to clinic-depressed youths. Its also a look into how human deal with a kobayashi maru (an unwinnable situation) that threats to end humanity and how despair overwhelms people.

Thats why I find rebuild so fascinating, if with the characters "improved", the world ends up ending even faster. So Eva has more of a point to
make than just being a case study into depression and youths finding meaning in life.

[sephirotic]

*cough*

And what exactly is the conclusion or is Eva just a long rant on depression?

I think Eva is more complex than to be boiled down to that. It is a character study but not limited to clinic-depressed youths. Its also a look into how human deal with a kobayashi maru (an unwinnable situation) that threats to end humanity and how despair overwhelms people.

Thats why I find rebuild so fascinating, if with the characters "improved", the world ends up ending even faster. So Eva has more of a point to
make than just being a case study into depression and youths finding meaning in life.

Yes, Eva is "essentialy" (not "just") a long, simbolist, rant on depression.

The world ending faster isn´t really directly related with the characters "appearing" "improved", but most likely by the fact of an original extended 26 episodes series to be made into 3, 2 hours, movies where tehre is no space of enough deep character development.

The conclusion is that while the Sci-fi and Kabalistic elements are interesting and brings interesting philosophical debates about society and support to the char developments, the chars are still the focus on the series so i don´t really find it interesting to see if the characters are less depressed (that is not really an "improvement" in char development or is it?) because of secondary reasons.

[Wissenschaft]

Eh, that would make the whole "plot" of EVA (nerv vs seele, etc) pointless and hallow since it would be nothing more than a window dressing for a rant on depression. I certainly see more to Eva than that. Just goes to show different 2 people can view the same series.

[sephirotic]

Eh, that would make the whole "plot" of EVA (nerv vs seele, etc) pointless and hallow since it would be nothing more than a window dressing for a rant on depression. I certainly see more to Eva than that. Just goes to show different 2 people can view the same series.

Well of course i do like the others secondaries elements on Eva actually i love almost everything about it, including rebuild wich i try not to compare with the "original" But i still think the char development is the most important part of the series, tough i don´t like the way this topic says a less depressed Shinji is an "Improved" Shinji in a char development perspective. That is why i said it is not related with a suposed irony of the world ending faster because of that. Its a pseudo-coincidence.

Anw i think i made my point already.

[Wissenschaft]

Ah, that makes more sense. In fact, I'd agree on that. A less depressed Shinji isn't necessarily an improvement considering in 2.0 he speeds up the end of the world. I don't believe that the result of the series being condescend in movie form since they could have left that for the 4th rebuild movie. I believe the whole point of 2.0 was to show Shinji not being as depressed didn't help anyone and almost ended the world.

I do not consider the climax of 2.0 a pseudo-coincidence in anyway but instead being the focus on the movie.

On the other hand, I like the 2.0 versions of the characters more so.....easier to relate to characters that show more emotion than depression constantly.

[arkiel]

1.0 (Black to white, Ramiel fight)
"Even if its for all mankind, I just can't care. I wonder why?"
Then he slices open Unit 0's entry plug to get at Rei.

2.0
"I don't care about the world, but I must haz teh Reiz!"
Then he breaches the barrier of life and death and rescues Rei.

I mean, shit, focusing in on Rei and Shinji, the movies pretty much ended the same way.

Shinji going red-eyes though. That's new. That (could) be an advance.

[Gendo'sPapa]

Rebuild Shinji is no where near as fascinating or incredible as NGE Shinji. So he's not an improvement. But he's far greater than what I feared he'd be. He's not manga Shinji for one.

And when Rebuild was first announced they made it seem like it was Rei and Kaworu centric so I feared Shinji was going to become a side character in his own story.

Thankfully the series is still Shinji's and he's a different but still compelling character.

Either way, regarding Shinji in 2.0 you have to look at it from the view of the the overall story arch I think. For Shinji in 1.0 his emotional story was coming to Tokyo-3 and coming to terms with who he is as an Eva pilot. It was Shinji being accepted into this world.
I feel like the titles can be viewed as Shinji's thoughts from the start of their respective films to their ends. Hence the first film is titled You Are Alone, a negative thought, but ultimately is changed by his interactions with others to a positive one- You Are (Not) Alone.
In 2.0 Shinji's main dramatic arch is to become close to his father. To build that one key relationship he wants more than anything else. The sadness of the 2nd film is that Shinji is fighting a losing battle. He can't get close to his father. Hence the title- it starts out on a positive note of
You Can Advance. I can get closer to Daddy. Etc etc. But by the end of the film he's come to realization that no, You Can (Not) Advance. And like anyone who is truly hurt (does Shinji feel more hurt about "killing Asuka" or finally realizing Gendo will never love him, another possible discussion lies there) he's become victim to his emotions and just like he did with Kaworu in NGE, he's placed all his feelings for love and want onto one other person. Rei.
This of course is a bad idea. You should never base your whole self worth on another person. You have to love yourself first and foremost and then receive love from others (plural) not another (singular).

So by being the petty Shinji we know and love, the one who turns his backs on everyone else for immediate gratification (gratification that can be all but broken if that one other who validates you is removed) he's put himself in a position for great drama in 3.0. And because this is a movie this has been snuck into the narrative through epic explosions and utterly awesome visuals.

Rebuild Shinji is not more interesting than NGE Shinji but he's still a similar character.

I wonder what 3.0 will be titled....probably something along the lines of "You Can (Not) Die" or "You Can (Not) Be Replaced".

P.S. As an aside, I very much like that Shinji tries to stop Bardiel from strangling him in Rebuild. In NGE I always questioned why he never did that. I can understand not wanting to kill the Angel cause of the other pilot but that doesn't mean you HAVE to let it kill you.

[Wissenschaft]

P.S. As an aside, I very much like that Shinji tries to stop Bardiel from strangling him in Rebuild. In NGE I always questioned why he never did that. I can understand not wanting to kill the Angel cause of the other pilot but that doesn't mean you HAVE to let it kill you.

It is such actions that make like rebuild Shinji more. Whether or not he is right or wrong, at least this new Shinji has the will to live and to try to save others. People disapprove on his choice to save Rei at the end of 2.0 but honestly, who among us could say they just sit back and let someone they care about die? Shinji didn't know what would happen and even if he did, who among us could say they wouldn't do the exact same thing and damn the world to desperately try to save a love one? I couldn't, it would be a truely cold person (like Gendo) who could do something like that.

Perhaps because I've never been anywhere near as depressed as the original Shinji, I feel more connected to the rebuild Shinji.

Though, I don't believe this Shinji is superior to the original nor inferior. They both have their place in their respective stories. I choose to enjoy both versions of Eva.

[sephirotic]

Rebuild Shinji is no where near as fascinating or incredible as NGE Shinji. So he's not an improvement. But he's far greater than what I feared he'd be. He's not manga Shinji for one.

(...)


P.S. As an aside, I very much like that Shinji tries to stop Bardiel from strangling him in Rebuild. In NGE I always questioned why he never did that. I can understand not wanting to kill the Angel cause of the other pilot but that doesn't mean you HAVE to let it kill you.

I like your interpretation and view of Shinji, i think i agree with it 100%, i also hate the manga simplification, to me, at least, the manga is just a stupiud fanfic of the original series, Sadamoto don't understand the simbolism and psique behind the cosntruction of the chars.

It's interesting indeet that Shinji resisted a little against bardiel, but then again, letting him be struggled to death is another simbolism to: "I prefer to die than baring the responsability of killing other", or better more, the classical: "i prefer do nothing, and thus getting hurt, than taking the risk of hurting other and then feeling the responsabilities of my choice, regreeting and suffering even more".

Logically he could fight and try to disable Bardiel trying to remove without the entry plug. It would be risky but is the most logical fist attempt he should take. But as i always say: The plot is secondary and only serves as simbolism to the chars development so is not the more logical thing that actually happens, but the one that most makes sense simbolical.

The same applies for Shinji killing Kaworu: Kaworu represents the childish love that still remais for his father, thus killing him, means he finallys can cut the childish need of a bond and aprovall of his own father and projection of a unilateral affection as only meaning of life.

Of course Shinji could have tried to argue why couldn´t kaworu just keep living with him and abandon the goal of joining with adam... That would´t make sense to the plot however.

Also is interesting to note, that the fact of Touji not dying in the incident with Bardiel on the series is to increse the conflict in this final responsability of deciding to kill kaworu.

It is such actions that make like rebuild Shinji more. Whether or not he is right or wrong, at least this new Shinji has the will to live and to try to save others. People disapprove on his choice to save Rei at the end of 2.0 but honestly, who among us could say they just sit back and let someone they care about die? Shinji didn't know what would happen and even if he did, who among us could say they wouldn't do the exact same thing and damn the world to desperately try to save a love one? I couldn't, it would be a truely cold person (like Gendo) who could do something like that.

Perhaps because I've never been anywhere near as depressed as the original Shinji, I feel more connected to the rebuild Shinji.

On the other hand, i suffered from a 4-years depression from my 10-13 years and have gone through Psychoanalysis ever since so i can catch the sutiles behaviours of the series Shinji and how well developed he is. Of course more than studying psychanalysis and viewing the seires is needed to catch all the simbolism presents to enrich the chars exploration.

People usually dosn´t like the series Shinji and tend to prefer a more agressive Shinji like the one in the manga (usgh) or the one in Rebuild because he seens more healthier and "normal". Is hard for regular ppl who never had a close experience with depression understand how realistic the original Shinji is and how disturbing is the unnability of going throw the most simple decisions and overcome some trivial problenas of the dayli life. It´s ideed, annoying, but, its realistic and very well made.

Anyway, even tough i find the original Shinji is much richier i like the rebuild Shinji too.

[tedness]

There isn't anything mature about almost ending the world to save a friend.

Makes for an ok movie ending though.

This.

[IkariRei]

P.S. As an aside, I very much like that Shinji tries to stop Bardiel from strangling him in Rebuild. In NGE I always questioned why he never did that. I can understand not wanting to kill the Angel cause of the other pilot but that doesn't mean you HAVE to let it kill you.

Maybe the pilot was synced with the the Angel since the angel is an Eva.
Shinji would have inflicted the pain to the pilot as well.

[jrice73]

After watching my dvd-rip of 2.22 for the third time yesterday, I came to the conclusion that not only do I like Shinji much, much more here than I do in the series, I totally respect the little shit now! He's finally taken his first steps into a much larger world so to say. He got off the sidelines, left his whining brat indecisiveness behind and KICKED ASS for the first time EVER! And all because for the first time ever, he wants to save/hook up with the girl! And save her he will. Anno's musings about Rebuild for the last several years has led me to this conclusion as well. Things change, we grow up, we fall in love. And by God I'm happy for Shinji. When he says I don't care what happens to the world and all I want is Rei I'm damn happy for him. He's becoming a hero. And the next thing he needs is to take a gun and blow Gendo's fucking head off!

[Reichu]

Just caught up on the thread. I must say, the folks who are fixated on Shinji "kicking ass and getting the girl" seem to be missing out on the big picture...

My feelings for NME!Shinji aren't especially worked out at the moment. I definitely won't say that he's an "improvement" in any way, since the only thing he seems to be doing "better" is appealing to a part of the audience who didn't like him as much before by virtue of not being the exact same character. However, for this very reason, NME!Shinji is forced to do certain things worse. Like appeal to me. :3

I'm open to the idea that he works fine for this version of the story and what it's setting out to do (whatever exactly that ends up being). But for better or for worse, I doubt I'm going to identify with him the same way I identify with NGE!Shinji.

I also agree with NemZ about NME!Shinji being an even more selfish git than his predecessor.

[ultrassjstuart]

Strange... Many of you are basing your arguments on this Shinji NOT being a 'superior' one (if you'll forgive the term) on the title: You can (not) Advance. You all asume that in this film that applies to the protagonists, however, if you apply it to the ANTagonists (the angels) it takes on a whole new meaning, the angels are advancing, everything is being destroyed, and Rei is gone. So Shinji is the one who says 'you can not advance' (very Gandalfish i know...)

And whatever motivations Shinji had (selfish or otherwise, i mean when every 'good' thing we do in life is boiled down it can be interpreted as selfish), it doesn't matter, the difference this time around is that when crunch time came he at least TRIED. Like when he's in the eva I feel he's effectively saying 'I may not be able to save the world, but at least I'm sure as hell going to save Rei, it stops with her!'
Just look at the original ep 19 (was it 19?) when unit-01 runs out of power he goes all desperate and depressed and was 'sick of it' and effectively gives up leaving Yui to sort things out, in this one he instead chooses to TRY, even if it's only for one person, he's going to make sure he can at least save one person, and that is the wish eva grants him. I know many of you empathised with original Shinji (being in bad places yourselves and are trying to see old Shinji in him), but EVA was essentially and always has been, a mirror for Anno's own psyche and the place he was in his life, he created rebuild now he's in a much better place (seriously) and it's reflected in the characters. Who knows, this may be his way of finally putting his issues and past behind him and moving on, and is therefore doing so with Evangelion and it's characters, perhaps he feels it's time for both him and them to live happily ever after (kind of like Shinji's acceptance at the end of the tv series)
Art is very theraputic that way.

So yeah, assume in this case You can (not) advance is instead being said to the Angels, possibly by Shinji, for that one moment right at the end.

Gods I'd love to see the looks on half your faces if the fourth movie gives us a happy ending, the supreme irony being it would probably make you inconsolable...

[skikes]

Hmm... He's certainly more likeable but an improvement? I don't think so. Like all of the characters in rebuild, he has become paper thin.

[IkariRei]

In episode 19 he said "move or everyone will die" before "i'm already sick of it" so doesn't that make TV Shinji better for wanting to save everyone not just Rei?

p.s. Yes it was Yui who did all the work after that but it was his strong wish in that moment that made it go berserk.

[Reichu]

In episode 19 he said "move or everyone will die" before "i'm already sick of it" so doesn't that make TV Shinji better for wanting to save everyone not just Rei?

This probably goes toward the observation that NME!Shinji is, so far, showing much more "actively selfish" tendencies in comparison.

p.s. Yes it was Yui who did all the work after that but it was his strong wish in that moment that made it go berserk.

Hmm... Yui... I feel a rant coming.


The maternal aspect of the Evas so overwhelmingly prevalent in the original has been greatly deemphasized so far, and I wonder if this is connected to some of the character alterations that they've chosen to make. Originally, with the Evas being giant mother incarnates, and the entry plugs symbolic wombs that one constantly returned to, Eva piloting represented reliance upon one's mother, the lack of separation... To be an Eva pilot was to not yet truly be an adult and to have found one's own sense of identity and purpose, because you were trapped in an unhealthy Freudian nightmare with the First Other.

Had emphasis not been taken off "Eva = Mom", would the end of 2.22 and its implications for Shinji's character come off quite a bit differently to audiences, I wonder? I'm still kind of hoping they'll bring the Mom stuff back in in the next movie and spin Shinji's GAR moment into something really squick and uncool for everyone who thought it was awesome, but I probably shouldn't count on it.