Shinji 2.0 an improvement?

[Hiten777]

ultrassjstuart I praise you for your words of wisdom. If I could add more to your comment I would, but the way you said is summed up everything I've been thinking about since the movie. I can see a theoristic brother.

[ultrassjstuart]

Although if there's commentary on the Dub DVD there should be some hilarious words from Spike Spencer when that final scene rolls around.

[Seele00TextOnly]

People keep saying things like this: "[Shinji's] comments about not caring if the world is destroyed"

Can we please put this to rest already? Sauce, explanation, and justification of this conclusion please from anyone who insists on perpetuating it.

[ultrassjstuart]

It's okay Seele00 it's pretty much wrapped up now

[JoeD80]

Sauce, explanation, and justification of this conclusion please from anyone who insists on perpetuating it.

I haven't listened closely enough to the Japanese version yet (I just got the Blu-Ray yesterday), but the translation on the wiki says:

"Shinji: I don't care what happens to me. I don't care what happens to the world."

[Shinji_Fan]

I feel that I should write something about this. I've always thought that Shinji, while flawed and made some bad mistakes was always a heroic character. He grew, fought, and preformed many actions to save the human race. And I feel I need to post something about it and I will take some time and consider the best way to post that latter.


however one thing springs to mind about this I think needs to be said, that while I do believe Shinji had no idea that his actions would result in third impact he has been in this situation before. When he did killed his friend to save the world. And yet that verison of Shinji is the one that was called a "bitch" and seen as a nasty character. Despite the fact that he did what is considered now the right choice, he barely got any consideration for it at all.

So the question becomes what type of test do you take when you can give one answer or the other and still be wrong? The answer my friends is simple, a fixed test. One that no matter what you do you can't possibly win.

[ultrassjstuart]

So, what? It seems the bottom line is new Shinji is still a flawed person but lsn't a dumping ground for freudian psychosis metaphors any more (which is ALL he was in NGE), if anything new Shinj is just pain and simply... Human, unlike old Shinji who was just a metaphor for human and all humanity's flaws all rolled up into one 14 year old sack of crazy with absolutely zero growth potential.

[Seele00TextOnly]

EDIT: this post merged to here after this post of SSD's in the "Since you guys hate Rebuild so much" thread.

Not exactly the noblest of intentions or reasons, similar to how Shinji was acting at 2.0's finale.

This again... why is it people insist on seeing "I don't care about the world" in this light? Is there that much appeal in pursuing a parallel with EoE? I asked in the translation thread if there was a way to have a further dissection of this line, in hopes of further addressing the issue once and for all, with unfortunately no response. This is continues to seem to be the accepted interpretation around here, and I don't see the justification.

Aside from that interpretation of that line, Shinji's intentions and reasons are incredibly noble.

[AuraTwilight]

It's mostly because he said that while almost destroying the world, and it sort of implied that he wouldn't of cared if he actually DID kill anyone, so long as he and Rei were safe. Especially since this is completely believable and in-line with Shinji's character.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Hopefully this won't turn into a tangent, but:

I asked in the translation thread if there was a way to have a further dissection of this line,

Done: http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=364729#364729

so long as he and Rei were safe.

I agree with your line of thinking too, the only thing I want to clarify is Shinji's lines seem to be taken one step further with "I don't care what happens to me", not just "I don't care what happens to the world". He pretty much seems to be saying and to at least get one person, Rei, to safety even if it's at the cost of his own life, not just everybody else.

But yeah, by the point in time Rei's actually saved, Shinji of course seems glad he's able to be with her.

Seele: It's not so much people WANT to find a parallel to EoE as much as 2.0 is (intentionally?) setting itself up that way.

[Seele00TextOnly]

I guess this is getting tangential, sorry if a few of these posts have to get split into the Shinji 2.0 an improvement? thread.

That fact that he is destroying the world cannot be used to judge him because he is not aware this is happening. He has no idea. The 'sort of' implication is nonexistent; it is founded on one interpretation of one line. It is most certainly not in-line with Rebuild!Shinji's character; I saw no such evidence of him hating anything other than his father and himself, saving for his attack on Nerv HQ. He finds the world cruel but seeks to protect himself from it, to escape it. Not to destroy it.

2.0 does set itself up to have some EoE parallels in the physical manner, showing a third impact begin and so much of the Geofront utterly destroyed. However, 2.0 does not set itself up to parallel EoE in its characterizations in anyway, not with a single character. Shinji's descent, his actions, and his way of responding to what occurs around him are all substantially different. There is no correlation in the regard some are alluding to concerning Shinji and a will to destroying the world or any person other than his father and himself.

[Warren Peace]

That fact that he is destroying the world cannot be used to judge him because he is not aware this is happening. He has no idea. The 'sort of' implication is nonexistent; it is founded on one interpretation of one line. It is most certainly not in-line with Rebuild!Shinji's character...

I think it's perfectly in line with his actions earlier in the film. He'd rather risk the victory of the Angel's than fight the posessed Eva Unit*. He'd rather initiate Third Impact than lose Rei. They go hand in hand... they're both noble gestures in an emotional way but are ultimately short sighted and selfish pragmatically.


* Interestingly, swapping Asuka for Toji here puts Shinji's and Asuka's (professed) world views head-to-head. At the aquarium, in response to Rei's refusal to eat meat, Asuka says something like, "Idiot! We have to kill/eat our enemies in order to survive!" I wonder if Asuka would have wiped out the Eva had she been in Shinji's shoes?

[lars18th]

I guess this is getting tangential, sorry if a few of these posts have to get split into the Shinji 2.0 an improvement? thread.

That fact that he is destroying the world cannot be used to judge him because he is not aware this is happening. He has no idea. The 'sort of' implication is nonexistent; it is founded on one interpretation of one line. It is most certainly not in-line with Rebuild!Shinji's character; I saw no such evidence of him hating anything other than his father and himself, saving for his attack on Nerv HQ. He finds the world cruel but seeks to protect himself from it, to escape it. Not to destroy it.

2.0 does set itself up to have some EoE parallels in the physical manner, showing a third impact begin and so much of the Geofront utterly destroyed. However, 2.0 does not set itself up to parallel EoE in its characterizations in anyway, not with a single character. Shinji's descent, his actions, and his way of responding to what occurs around him are all substantially different. There is no correlation in the regard some are alluding to concerning Shinji and a will to destroying the world or any person other than his father and himself.

I agree absolutely.

[Seele00TextOnly]

I think it's perfectly in line with his actions earlier in the film. He'd rather risk the victory of the Angel's than fight the posessed Eva Unit.

Here there is an undeniable point, and it is consistent with the series. Same as quitting altogether and attacking Nerv HQ; all things that one can reasonably condemn him for in Rebuild as well as the original series.

He'd rather initiate Third Impact than lose Rei. They go hand in hand...

Here I must once again repeat that he had absolutely no idea that he was initiating Third Impact, nor did he know that he had any ability to do so in the first place.

[Nonoriri]

If the world had ended we could very well still put the blame on him and his actions even if he was unaware of it.

[Legendary]

We could, but that seems unfair. It is one thing to blame a man who says, stupidly, "Fuck the world, I'm saving HER," and then destroys the world. It's quite another to blame a man who says, "I'm saving HER, even if I have to die to do it," and then destroys the world.

[The Fourth Evangelion]

Maybe, to turn things a bit around, Shinji saw that Rei got eaten by Zerrie. Feeling guilty because of Asuka and being a guy with a hugo ego, he decided to take action.

What he saw however, was someone who was in deeper trouble then he.
Maybe he felt that he was actually worthless but, he didn't want to have someone be in deeper trouble then he and thus he saved Rei. Because he's such an ego that he needs to be the most pitful guy in the world.

I think that would make Shinji 2.0 an improvement, because he did something an actual man could do. He did something rather human, while doing the craziest shit on the planet.

[carla]

i, too, agree that we can't say he's dooming the world on purpose, he didn't know it would actually happen. i think rebuild!Shinji is an improvement (surprise, surprise).

i think the "but he's still destroying the world!" argument first came up not as a criticism of rebuild!Shinji, but as a defense. there's a lot of "grrr they turned my EVA into a typical shonen grrrrrr why is Shinji being so GAR dammit" going around, and i think the idea that he's still (however inadvertently) causing third impact was first brought up as something that sets 2.0 apart from other, more upbeat shonen series.

also, while Shinji's reasons for destroying the world are definitely NOT the same as in EoE (it's completely different to say "i wish everybody was dead because i hate them all" than saying "i'll save this person no matter what happens to the world"), it could still be argued that there's a selfish component to each scenario. just different selfish. that, i think, was the part that was reminescent of EoE!Shinji, although the "parallel" isn't much of a parallel at all.

[MicroBalrog]

There isn't anything mature about almost ending the world to save a friend.

On this argument, Gendo is an immature brat, as he wants to end the world to be with Yui...

Wait. You're onto something.

[AuraTwilight]

i think the "but he's still destroying the world!" argument first came up not as a criticism of rebuild!Shinji, but as a defense. there's a lot of "grrr they turned my EVA into a typical shonen grrrrrr why is Shinji being so GAR dammit" going around, and i think the idea that he's still (however inadvertently) causing third impact was first brought up as something that sets 2.0 apart from other, more upbeat shonen series.

No it's not. The problem is that even if Shinji was aware of what he was doing, he wouldn't change his course of action. He even says as much. His awareness of what's going on is totally irrelevant.