EoE and the DC: Retcon or Not? [split]

[cody727kirby]

Yes, and thus we can clearly assume they are not the same event and instrumentality can come in different 'flavors'. To be brief:

EoTV

• people seem to still be themselves within the larger union
  
• both Misato and Gendo are reunited with their lost loves
  
• Gendo seems to be a figure of authority
  
• ends with congratulations and fanfare in a smiling group in a pleasant fantastical landscape
  

EoE

• individuals don't seem to persist at all, just ground up into raw soul-stuff
  
• Gendo is rejected and Kaji is nowhere to be seen
  
• it's all on Shinji to decide
  
• ends with attempted murder, isolation and a cold rejection in a very real world gone wrong
  

Yes, absolutely this.
I attribute this to the difference between what the story is saying to the characters vs. what it is saying to the audience. These issues don't at all impact the latter, which is what you're focusing on.

Agreed with Bags. And again, many of these points can be easily attributed to the lack of time that was available during production. I think the Instrumentality we see in EoE is what Anno had originally intended, but he had to rush and simplify many aspects of it. ("people seem to still be themselves within the larger union", "ends with congratulations and fanfare in a smiling group in a pleasant fantastical landscape")

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Agreed with Bags. And again, many of these points can be easily attributed to the lack of time that was available during production. I think the Instrumentality we see in EoE is what Anno had originally intended, but he had to rush and simplify many aspects of it.

I would question that assumption, actually. If that were the case, then I would expect Anno to title the EoE episodes with the exact same title the EoTV episodes had, just like he did the DC versions of the episodes. I mean, why wouldn’t the episode titles be the same of EoE were simply a fix for EoTV? But they have different titles, possible suggesting entirely different events.

[pwhodges]

The changes required to implement the whole of Anno's original plan (as he himself says) weren't just tweaks - they included the whole of the missing original 25, for instance - so it's hardly surprising that the changes were a lot more substantial than the tweaks in the DC episodes, and thus justified new names.

[Bagheera]

I would question that assumption, actually. If that were the case, then I would expect Anno to title the EoE episodes with the exact same title the EoTV episodes had, just like he did the DC versions of the episodes. I mean, why wouldn’t the episode titles be the same of EoE were simply a fix for EoTV? But they have different titles, possible suggesting entirely different events.

Or different takes on the same event.

[NemZ]

Well whatever, I've made my case as strongly as I care to. If people still aren't convinced then that's your problem, not mine.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Or different takes on the same event.

Shinji still wondering if it’s alright for him to be there in EoE seems a bit more than just a “different take” of him knowing it’s alright for him to be there in EoTV. Though the events might be similar (ands= some would argue even exactly the same), Shinji’s mental state throughout is entirely different, which is in it of itself a different event.

[Bagheera]

Shinji still wondering if it’s alright for him to be there in EoE seems a bit more than just a “different take” of him knowing it’s alright for him to be there in EoTV. Though the events might be similar (ands= some would argue even exactly the same), Shinji’s mental state throughout is entirely different, which is in it of itself a different event.

I don't think it is, really. It occurs to him that it might be alright for him to be here in EoTV, but that doesn't mean he knows for certain that it's true. He's just opened himself up to the possibility that it might be true. Hence the congratulations.

Instrumentality is not, and never was, a quick fix; it's just a way to bridge the gap between what is and what might be. We still have to get there on our own.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

He's just opened himself up to the possibility that it might be true. Hence the congratulations.

The statement made by Shinji is “It’s okay for me to be here!” not, “It might be okay for me to be here!” It’s also notable that in EoE Shinji never even addresses the possibility of it being okay for him to exist. He just admits that he’ll continue to wonder about it. In EoTV Shinji admits that he could probably be happy instead of sad. In EoE he says that he’ll probably never find happiness. These are two different emotions to be had. These are two different questions being pondered. These are two different events playing out in Shinji’s internal struggle.

Do You Love Me? as opposed to Love is Destructive. 

Take Care of Yourself as opposed to I Need You.

[Bagheera]

The statement made by Shinji is “It’s okay for me to be here!” not, “It might be okay for me to be here!”

I know the quote, Freaky, it's in my sig. And if you look at the full quote there's an awful lot of "maybe" in there, making it pretty consistent with what he says in EoE.

I really think you're splitting hairs here.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

The “maybes” are in the beginning of the realization, and then in confused rather conclusively. And remember, EoE doesn’t even have the “maybe” in it at all. And these are all things that are highlighted by entire episode title changes. I really doubt I’m splitting hairs when the identity of the episodes needs to be reconfigured to match the alternate tones and implications of the episodes themselves.

[Bagheera]

The “maybes” are in the beginning of the realization, and then in confused rather conclusively. And remember, EoE doesn’t even have the “maybe” in it at all.

I don't know what the first sentence means. As to EoE, Shinji says he'll still wonder why he's here, and whether or not coming back was the right thing to do. That echoes what's said in EoTV pretty well.

And these are all things that are highlighted by entire episode title changes. I really doubt I’m splitting hairs when the identity of the episodes needs to be reconfigured to match the alternate tones and implications of the episodes themselves.

Given that every episode has multiple titles already I really fail to see the significance. If EoE is telling the same story from another angle of course it will have different titles. It would be bizarre if it didn't. That has no bearing on the question of whether or not the two tellings are different continuities.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

The "maybes" are only there at the beginning of his statements. By the end of his statements, the maybes are no longer there, and the as a result Shoji is seen as more confidant in what he's saying. When he began talking there were only possibilities to him. By the time he had finished talking, there were things he was actively doing. Hence the "Congratulations" at the end.

Given that every episode has multiple titles already I really fail to see the significance. If EoE is telling the same story from another angle of course it will have different titles.

So, why do the titles of EoE contradict the titles of EoTV? Also, the more titles something has doesn't make the titles any less significant. The significance is there regardless of whether or not you can see it. You cannot disregard the different titles simply because there are so many of them. If we had disregarded elements of Eva simply because of their sheer abundance, then we would have abandoned the show a long time ago, Bennet the Sage style.

[Ispellnogood]

The "maybes" are only there at the beginning of his statements. By the end of his statements, the maybes are no longer there, and the as a result Shoji is seen as more confidant in what he's saying. When he began talking there were only possibilities to him. By the time he had finished talking, there were things he was actively doing. Hence the "Congratulations" at the end.

The "Thank You Father" line shows the difference between the endings too. They're positive words of gratitude to Gendo which I don't remember being in EoE. I don't think there's even a place to splice them in EoE. Maybe "Thank you father" could fit in Gendo's retribution scene, but only if you add "you were a tasty snack" to it.


I interpret the "thank you father" line in EoTV, as Shinji thanking Gendo for initiating instrumentality which broke down the barriers of his soul and allowed him to join the others and be completed.

EoE is sort of the opposite of that, being that Shinji faces the very harsh reality at the end. I actually think EoE was responding to the frustrated WTF/FU reactions the EoTV ending generated. But that's just me.

There are probably many different interpretations to "Thank you father", which is alright. But if someone interprets Rei's "This is the instrumentality project your father has initiated" line in EoTV as meaning something other than Gendo initiated the instrumentality project, then they must be some kind of pothead.

EoTV and EoE are different endings with different events. In EoTV Gendo initiates instrumentality, while in EoE it's Shinji who pushes the button and kills everybody. That's a very significant and intentional change.

[Bagheera]

The "Thank You Father" line shows the difference between the endings too. They're positive words of gratitude to Gendo which I don't remember being in EoE. I don't think there's even a place to splice them in EoE. Maybe "Thank you father" could fit in Gendo's retribution scene, but only if you add "you were a tasty snack" to it.

That was Anno thanking his father, not Shinji thanking Gendo.

EoTV and EoE are different endings with different events. In EoTV Gendo initiates instrumentality, while in EoE it's Shinji who pushes the button and kills everybody. That's a very significant and intentional change.

Gendo initiates Instrumentality in both endings (he shoved his hand into Rei's chest, remember?), and Shinji never actually did anything in either ending. You're reading too much into things.

You will not make people agree with you on this unless they already share your mindset. We've been arguing about it for 18 years, so coming in at this point and telling us this is the way it is isn't going to get you anywhere.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

"Pushes the button that 'kills everyone'" is language that's a bit extreme for Eva's context.

[Ispellnogood]

Gendo initiates Instrumentality in both endings (he shoved his hand into Rei's chest, remember?), and Shinji never actually did anything in either ending. You're reading too much into things.

"Come back Rei"

"I can't, Ikari is calling me"

"Everyone can just die"


In EoE it was Shinji's fault. Even in that unused alternate ending to the alternate ending, Asuka kicks down her tombstone and says something like "Idiot, as if i'd let you kill me".

Shinji is the one responsible in EoE.

We've been arguing about it for 18 years, so coming in at this point and telling us this is the way it is isn't going to get you anywhere.

It's the never ending struggle of LIGHT vs DARKNESS.

[Bagheera]

In EoE it was Shinji's fault.

Nope. Shinji had zero power in NGE, nada, zip, none. It can't be his fault when he didn't actually do anything.

It's the never ending struggle of LIGHT vs DARKNESS.

Indeed. Come into the light already, this is getting stupid.

[Mr. Tines]

Shinji is the one responsible in EoE.

Nope. Shinji had zero power in NGE

EoE is not NGE (EoTV)

[Arcadia's legacy]

EoE is the end to NGE (it's in the damn name)

[Bagheera]

EoE is not NGE (EoTV)

On the contrary, NGE is the who shebang. It's NGE as opposed to NTE, not the name of the series/movie proper.

But hey, sub in EoE if it makes you feel better. The point is the same regardless.