Asuka's issues

[Atropos]

^ Good thing no one suggested otherwise!

And Bags was trying to whitewash her behavior, although this thread is several months old so who knows what he thinks now.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

At no point do I see Bagheera denying that Asuka does things. All I see is him giving his interpretation of why, which simply severely deviates from your own.

[Atropos]

^ Indeed, he denies that her actions are malicious, when clearly they are. The problem is that some of you can't accept that a character who is a "bully" might also be sympathetic and well-rounded.

[pwhodges]

although this thread is several months old so who knows what he thinks now.

Well, he knows Asuka very well indeed, so I doubt his view has changed materially.

[Ispellnogood]

In the series Asuka's really seems to be part of Annos critique of otakus. The way she runs away from her failures by playing games and all that.

In Eoe she really is the one doing the critique of Shinji/otaku. I think Anno wanted to do an up yours to all the people, who complained and wanted a Shinji and Asuka sunset ending.

[Gob Hobblin]

I don't know if it was as in-depth as that. I mean, playing and binge-ing on video games is both a form of escapism and indicative of an addiction (she is becoming addicted to video games as a means of a temporary 'fix' from the trauma and loneliness she feels). If anything, it's less a critique of otakus and otaku culture than it is a representation of Asuka's deteriorating social and mental state.

[Bagheera]

Asuka is one of my favorite anime characters period, but she was definitely a bully at times. It's actually frustrating to read through this thread and see Bagheera attempting to whitewash her bullying behavior. You can be a fan/friend/lover of someone and still acknowledge their flaws. Your arguments are weak and frankly they reek of sycophancy.

They aren't weak, and they don't reek of anything of the sort.

^ This describes Asuka to a tee in the numerous examples that have been provided in this thread. Seriously Bagheera just stop it.

1. No it doesn't, for reasons I explained in detail earlier.

2. You necroed a 7-month-old thread to tell me to stop doing something. Stop and think about that for a minute.

I have no problem with those who consider Asuka to be a sympathetic character, hell that's part of why I like her so much. I only take umbrage when people like Bagheera verbatim say that Asuka wasn't a bully and then deny the numerous examples that prove the contrary.

I think I explained pretty clearly why I think they don't prove anything of the sort. Calling Asuka a bully is like calling Rei an emotionless doll or calling Shinji a wimp; it works on a superficial reading but falls apart once you delve a bit deeper and start to understand the character's motivations.

^ Indeed, he denies that her actions are malicious, when clearly they are.

[citation needed]

Seriously, just making the claim doesn't make it true. Gob at least had the courtesy to put forth some effort on the matter, but you and Introvert are just saying "this is obviously true and your argument sucks, so there" and that doesn't work. What is needed to make the argument work is an actual pattern of behavior and proof of malicious intent. The problem is that some key elements of the pattern Gob provided are clearly slapstick elements of the show, and do not persist into the descent arc (where things get much more serious and "realistic"), while others only fit the pattern in the loosest possible sense (calling Asuka's ranting in the locker room gossip being perhaps the best example).

I don't know if it was as in-depth as that. I mean, playing and binge-ing on video games is both a form of escapism and indicative of an addiction (she is becoming addicted to video games as a means of a temporary 'fix' from the trauma and loneliness she feels). If anything, it's less a critique of otakus and otaku culture than it is a representation of Asuka's deteriorating social and mental state.

An important thing to note here: she was playing games at Hikari's place, and she didn't exactly pack up a game console when she left Misato's place. That's Hikari's game system; we never see Asuka playing one earlier in the show (I'd have to rewatch the ep to be sure, but I don't think we even saw one in her room in ep 20).

[Atropos]

Seriously, just making the claim doesn't make it true. Gob at least had the courtesy to put forth some effort on the matter, but you and Introvert are just saying "this is obviously true and your argument sucks, so there" and that doesn't work. What is needed to make the argument work is an actual pattern of behavior and proof of malicious intent.

I'm not sure what there is to gain by endlessly renumerating the facts. I chose not to list them all because Gob had already put together a comprehensive list, complete with explanations, and you just said "Oh, but it's not malicious, therefore it's not bullying." At this point it's clear that you refuse to be convinced, which is fine, but please forgive those who don't want to engage with you for that reason.

The problem is that some key elements of the pattern Gob provided are clearly slapstick elements of the show, and do not persist into the descent arc (where things get much more serious and "realistic"), while others only fit the pattern in the loosest possible sense (calling Asuka's ranting in the locker room gossip being perhaps the best example).

Oh? She:
-Loudly states how Shinji deserved to be nommed by Leliel and how she's glad he's gone. (Ep. 16)
-Reacts to a genuine attempt to reach out by shouting at him and once again trying to assert herself over him. (Ep. 22)
She barely interacted with Shinji in eps 17-19, Shinji was incorporeal in ep. 20, she doesn't appear in ep. 21, and she gets mindraped in ep. 22, so it's understandable that she doesn't continue this behavior when she has no means to do so.

And besides: the fact that it's "slapsticky" doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Even events which are treated humorously inform the characters and how we should interpret them. Example: Misato's alcoholism. Played for laughs early on, but is an early indicator of just how messed-up she is.

[Mr. Tines]

Can we try perhaps a little more peace on Earth and good will to all men in this thread?

[Bagheera]

I'm not sure what there is to gain by endlessly renumerating the facts. I chose not to list them all because Gob had already put together a comprehensive list, complete with explanations, and you just said "Oh, but it's not malicious, therefore it's not bullying."

The fact that it's not malicious means it's not bullying by definition, since malicious intent is central to what the word means. It's quite possible to be mean, hurtful, or even a straight up asshole without being a bully (and I would never argue the point that Asuka's a jerk, because she kind of is).

Oh? She:
-Loudly states how Shinji deserved to be nommed by Leliel and how she's glad he's gone. (Ep. 16)
-Reacts to a genuine attempt to reach out by shouting at him and once again trying to assert herself over him. (Ep. 22)

. . . and we learn at the end of ep. 16 that that was all bluster and that she's actually glad to have him back, and the bit in 22 came after she was mindraped, so, well, circumstances.

She barely interacted with Shinji in eps 17-19, Shinji was incorporeal in ep. 20, she doesn't appear in ep. 21, and she gets mindraped in ep. 22, so it's understandable that she doesn't continue this behavior when she has no means to do so.

The fact she didn't exhibit this behavior in 17-19, when she was clearly upset with him and angry about the fact that he was outperforming her, is a significant example of why her behavior is not that of a bully. Her motivation to pick on him is stronger there than at any other point in the show, and she doesn't do it. And she actually did have the opportunity, because we see the two of them together in 18 for half the episode.

And besides: the fact that it's "slapsticky" doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Even events which are treated humorously inform the characters and how we should interpret them. Example: Misato's alcoholism. Played for laughs early on, but is an early indicator of just how messed-up she is.

That's not really the same thing, though. Slapstick comedy can't be taken seriously by its very nature; we have to assume that that's not what's actually happening, since there's no way Shinji would be able to laugh that off if it were played straight. The change in the tone of the show over the course of its run is very significant here.

[Atropos]

The fact that it's not malicious means it's not bullying by definition, since malicious intent is central to what the word means.

And, really, if you want to get down to it...how do you define "malicious"? Hurting people for the sake of hurting them? Or simply wanting to hurt other people, regardless of the underlying reason? There are few real-life abusers who don't have their own issues. It doesn't excuse their behavior.

[Bagheera]

And, really, if you want to get down to it...how do you define "malicious"? Hurting people for the sake of hurting them? Or simply wanting to hurt other people, regardless of the underlying reason? There are few real-life abusers who don't have their own issues. It doesn't excuse their behavior.

Hurting people for the sake of hurting them, pretty much that. That's what bullies do -- they hurt other people because it's fun. They gossip with their friends, laugh at and torment targets of opportunity, and generally get off on hurting others. There are some pretty good examples of this sort of character in anime and manga, but Asuka isn't really one of them (particularly since the most oft-used example to support the idea is her love interest and someone she doesn't appear to actually want to hurt). When you compare her to such characters the difference is night and day.

And who's trying to excuse anyone's bad behavior? I don't think anyone's made the claim that Asuka's bad acts are somehow okay, and the notion that labeling her a bully is inappropriate has no bearing on that.

[Gob Hobblin]

^

I can tell you for a fact, Bagheera, that a lot of bullies don't intend to be malicious in their behavior, and actually do not realize that they're being bullies. That doesn't change the damage they cause, or how much what they does hurts others, but it still makes them bullies.

On the game system:

An important thing to note here: she was playing games at Hikari's place, and she didn't exactly pack up a game console when she left Misato's place. That's Hikari's game system; we never see Asuka playing one earlier in the show (I'd have to rewatch the ep to be sure, but I don't think we even saw one in her room in ep 20).

Which is a very good point, but I felt it went without saying. The thing about her going to Hikari's house to play the game is that is really the ONLY reason she goes there. She barely acknowledges Hikari when she's playing. She does confide in Hikari (an important point), but her behavior on the game console is definitely someone zoning out. She's technically using Hikari for the game system during these periods, a sign of how much more detached she's becoming (emphasized that, when she DOES talk to Hikari, it's as she's having extremely emotional moments).

[Bagheera]

I can tell you for a fact, Bagheera, that a lot of bullies don't intend to be malicious in their behavior, and actually do not realize that they're being bullies. That doesn't change the damage they cause, or how much what they does hurts others, but it still makes them bullies.

But they still are malicious, which is what makes them bullies. They might not think of it that way, but that's immaterial. I'm not claiming Asuka doesn't see her behavior as being malicious, I'm saying it is not malicious, since she doesn't actually want to hurt anyone (with Rei being an arguable exception, but apart from the elevator scene there's not much to work with there). If you wanna call her a thoughtless jerk prone to childish outbursts I'm right there with you, but saying she intends to hurt others and, moreover, enjoys it is a bridge too far IMO (and I'll reiterate the fact that she didn't melt down and try to take others with her when she was rejected as a pilot; instead she just wandered off to die alone. Where's the malice there?).

(and as an aside I'll remark again on how shockingly self-contained Asuka's disintegration was. I'm frankly astonished that she didn't lay into Shinji, Misato, or both like the mother of all harpies, since that would be an understandable reaction given her circumstances. But instead she did just the opposite: left them alone without a word to seek solace in the only friend she had. She hurt no one when she crashed and burned. Hell, Shinji had to mind meld with her, enter her own personal hell, and be a selfish brat before she turned on him, and that was after she learned about his stunt in the hospital! That right there says an awful lot about her character.)

Which is a very good point, but I felt it went without saying. The thing about her going to Hikari's house to play the game is that is really the ONLY reason she goes there. She barely acknowledges Hikari when she's playing. She does confide in Hikari (an important point), but her behavior on the game console is definitely someone zoning out. She's technically using Hikari for the game system during these periods, a sign of how much more detached she's becoming (emphasized that, when she DOES talk to Hikari, it's as she's having extremely emotional moments).

I think that's assigning a bit too much importance to the game system, honestly. Remember that that's one of several aspects of her downward spiral that we see. We also have the fight with Shinji, her wandering around for a week, the scene with her and Hikari in bed, the bathtub scene, etc. I agree the game system represents zoning out, but I think that's just one piece of the puzzle, not the main event.

[Gob Hobblin]

Dude, that's exactly what I said though: Asuka's intent is immaterial to her actions. A person who has no intention of being malicious can still be a bully. I can think of one guy who was absolutely vicious and hellish to me in middle school. Met up with him again at the end of high school, and he had very fond memories of me. I told him with a smile on my face, "Yeah, you made my life a complete living hell last time I saw you." He was genuinely stunned, and kind of mumbled through the rest of the conversation.

The point being that his intent may not have been malicious, but his actions were exceedingly hurtful. He wasn't even aware of how hurtful they were, and it never occurred to him he was being a bully. In this sense, whether Asuka's intentions are malicious or not (and I think that's a whole other debate), it doesn't change her actions and the result of them, which CLEARLY do hurt Shinji and Misato (with Rei, it's just not even on her radar). Whether it's Asuka's intentions or not, her ACTIONS define her as a bully.

As for the game system: I'm on the same page. Remember, I was the one who pointed out it was simply an ACCESSORY to her mental state, not necessarily something more meaningful in the long run (ie, a jab at otaku culture). Her behavior around it is simply a further indicator of how her mental state is degrading at that point: it's not that the video games are all-important or a crutch, but that she's actually going to a friend's house to zone out for hours on a game console. It could be anything at that point: it just happens to be video games. You see her doing something similar with zonking on television in Misato's apartment.

It's not so important WHAT she's doing (games, television, etc.,) as opposed to how she overindulges in it and what it says about her state at the time. She's actively seeking escapist entertainment without really knowing why.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

It is important to realize that if somebody is engaging in bully-type behavior, that does technically make them a bully. Now, the intent may not be malicious-- and indeed, like Bagheera says, we're provided with multiple examples in the show as to how her behavior does NOT stem from malicious intent. However, we know this, but the characters don't (at least not at the time they're receiving the bullying.) To call Asuka a bully doesn't take away from the reasons (possibly very good ones) that she's doing what she does, but it's an apt description of how her behavior looks to others. She's hurt and lashing out because of this... but it's still lashing out. Not to victim-blame, but someone who engages in such behavior is going to be held responsible for their actions.

Just because you're not trying to hurt someone doesn't take away from it if you hurt them.

[Bagheera]

The point being that his intent may not have been malicious, but his actions were exceedingly hurtful. He wasn't even aware of how hurtful they were, and it never occurred to him he was being a bully. In this sense, whether Asuka's intentions are malicious or not (and I think that's a whole other debate), it doesn't change her actions and the result of them, which CLEARLY do hurt Shinji and Misato (with Rei, it's just not even on her radar). Whether it's Asuka's intentions or not, her ACTIONS define her as a bully.

And I fundamentally disagree with that definition of the term, since it leads to some absurd situations in short order. The fact that someone's actions are hurtful is not enough to make them a bully -- see our conversation re: intent upthread. And, moreover, her actions don't match up with the definition anyway. Your examples of gossip are a stretch in all cases, and the patterns you describe rely heavily on slapstick elements clearly played for laughs and not taken seriously by the characters. The Misato bits are more arguable, but the fact the most damning example was precipitated by Asuka learning that Misato had just lied to her face makes the whole thing dodgy at best. All we're left with is Asuka calling Shinji stupid, typically when Shinji says really stupid things.

The funny part of this? If actions are what really count, and someone being hurt is what determines whether or not someone else is a bully, the best example of a victim in the show is . . . Asuka. We know that Misato and Shinji in particular did tremendous damage to her. This isn't even a matter of interpretation, it's spelled out directly in the mindrape and in Instrumentality. Shinji hurt Asuka deeply and repeatedly, and Misato steadily ground her down over the course of the descent arc. And of course, we all know who wound up in a bathtub with slit wrists. By contrast, it's really not clear at all that Asuka's barbs had any effect whatsoever on Shinji. Misato was clearly affected at one point, but Shinji just seems confused more than anything. And of course, Asuka's the one he turns to at the end, since Rei and Misato have alienated him beyond all hope of recovery. They did more harm to the boy than Asuka could ever dream of doing.

So yeah, not on board with calling Asuka a bully. There are just too many qualifiers, too many counterexamples to make the term useful in her case. To draw an analogy, I think she's a bully about as much as she's a tsundere -- some of the superficial elements are there, and there's some overlap with the things she says and does, but there's enough going on underneath the surface (of both the character and the show) that it ultimately doesn't really fit.

It's not so important WHAT she's doing (games, television, etc.,) as opposed to how she overindulges in it and what it says about her state at the time. She's actively seeking escapist entertainment without really knowing why.

I think the why of it's pretty clear during the descent arc, but I'm with you otherwise.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

When it comes down to it, it looks like you and Gob are together on the points that really matter. Naming conventions aside, you're pretty on board with Asuka (as could only be expected of her bulldog, of course.)

[Gob Hobblin]

The difference being active versus passive: Asuka is actively lashing back, whereas Misato and Shinji are passively engaged. Everybody is hurting everybody, but Asuka is invested in it whereas Shinji and Misato are not. Asuka is attempting to assert herself, to make herself a presence: Misato and Shinji are either reacting to this, or taking stances that are not in and of themselves aggressive, but hurtful to Asuka. This doesn't put them in the right, but it does mean their behavior does not fall into a bully mentality.

And Asuka does not do one or two isolated, aggressive attacks: her entire personality, her consistent defining trait, is attempting to dominate those around her. To be the center of attention. To be lauded. To be adored. She picks on people, cuts them down, calls them out on their weaknesses in ways that are not helpful and highly inappropriate. She is the very model of a Blue Falcon.

Shinji hurts Asuka not because he's actively engaged in asserting himself, but because he's too inept and too inexperienced as to know what she wants, how to engage with her, and what to provide her that doesn't hurt. And Misato's in a position where she is inevitably going to hurt Asuka: she is the authority in the apartment. Hell, she's the authority over Asuka period: she's not just her guardian, she's her commanding officer. Of course she's going to do things that may bear down on Asuka and hurt her. You can say she's flawed in how she goes about it, but she's not unjustified and her actions don't make Asuka a victim. If you butt heads with a superior officer or NCO in the manner Asuka does, it doesn't matter how right you may or may not be.

You will lose, and it will be awful for you. If anything, Misato was being a lot KINDER than she had rights to be (considering that Asuka is a teenager and lacks perspective on the consequences of her behavior and actions).

As for the result of Asuka's arc (the suicide attempt), this doesn't write her off the bully card. As has been proven in psychological studies and surveys time and again, many bullies (possibly even the majority) act out as they do because of psychological problems they themselves carry. They are abuse victims, depressives, people with severe self-hate and self-loathing. They victimize others to take agency and power in lives that are lacking it. Simply because Asuka had a tragic downward spiral that may or may not have been helped along by those around her does not discount her from being a bully, and if anything reinforces it.

Can you actually call out any of the other characters in the show being as actively engaged in dominating and belittling Asuka as she is of others? That's why her actions make her a bully.

[Bagheera]

The difference being active versus passive: Asuka is actively lashing back, whereas Misato and Shinji are passively engaged. Everybody is hurting everybody, but Asuka is invested in it whereas Shinji and Misato are not. Asuka is attempting to assert herself, to make herself a presence: Misato and Shinji are either reacting to this, or taking stances that are not in and of themselves aggressive, but hurtful to Asuka. This doesn't put them in the right, but it does mean their behavior does not fall into a bully mentality.

But neither does Asuka's, and in fact you've explicitly said that one need not have malicious intent to be a bully. So, mentality doesn't matter -- you're arguing cause and effect, and the fact that Misato and Shinji were passive about things doesn't change the very real harm they caused.

And Asuka does not do one or two isolated, aggressive attacks: her entire personality, her consistent defining trait, is attempting to dominate those around her. To be the center of attention. To be lauded. To be adored. She picks on people, cuts them down, calls them out on their weaknesses in ways that are not helpful and highly inappropriate. She is the very model of a Blue Falcon.

I disagree with all of this. Asuka has no interest in domination, she wants acknowledgement. She doesn't want to be the center of attention, she wants to be taken seriously. She doesn't care one whit for being adored, and in fact rejects it at every turn (she likes being admired by her classmates, but categorically rejects the adoration of the boys in her class). She doesn't really pick on people, she doesn't really cut anyone down, and when she calls them out on their weaknesses she's generally spot-on in her assessments.

Asuka has many failings. She is an abrasive, chauvinistic, immature, and profoundly annoying brat, but the traits people are ascribing to her in this thread are off-base. As with most things in Eva she's a subversion of what she appears to be -- her image is that of a narcissistic bully but that's a facade, not who she is or what she actually does. Those things are no more accurate than the whole tsundere business or her being the hotblooded ace pilot. Let me ask you this: apart from the main cast, who do we actually see Asuka attack in the show? Touji and Kensuke? Who wouldn't attack those idiots after the stunts they pulled? So who else? Certainly not Hikari. Are there examples of her picking on classmates? Nerv staff? Anyone apart from Misato and the other pilots? I can't think of any. And that leaves me thinking her default mode is what we see with Kaji and Hikari: she gets on fine with others unless they're fucked up somehow and provoke her with profoundly annoying personality quirks (which Rei and Shinji have in spades). That doesn't justify her behavior, of course, but it does put it into perspective and suggest that we might be reading too much into it.

Shinji hurts Asuka not because he's actively engaged in asserting himself, but because he's too inept and too inexperienced as to know what she wants, how to engage with her, and what to provide her that doesn't hurt. And Misato's in a position where she is inevitably going to hurt Asuka: she is the authority in the apartment. Hell, she's the authority over Asuka period: she's not just her guardian, she's her commanding officer. Of course she's going to do things that may bear down on Asuka and hurt her. You can say she's flawed in how she goes about it, but she's not unjustified and her actions don't make Asuka a victim. If you butt heads with a superior officer or NCO in the manner Asuka does, it doesn't matter how right you may or may not be.

When your charge winds up taking a Roman bath you've fucked up, dude. There's just no way around that. Asuka didn't get ground up because of her attitude, she got ground up because she was no longer useful. And Misato's failures had nothing to do with command.

As for the result of Asuka's arc (the suicide attempt), this doesn't write her off the bully card. As has been proven in psychological studies and surveys time and again, many bullies (possibly even the majority) act out as they do because of psychological problems they themselves carry. They are abuse victims, depressives, people with severe self-hate and self-loathing. They victimize others to take agency and power in lives that are lacking it. Simply because Asuka had a tragic downward spiral that may or may not have been helped along by those around her does not discount her from being a bully, and if anything reinforces it.

That would be more significant if she'd actually done anything to anyone on the way down. But, as I noted above, she didn't. You're making a leap of logic here -- the fact that bullies are often psychologically damaged does not mean any given damaged individual is a bully. You're basically saying that an assertive victim is a bully by default, even though in this case her supposed "victims" did far more damage to her than she did to them. And that's absurd to me, and goes back to why I consider the matter of intent to be so important.

Can you actually call out any of the other characters in the show being as actively engaged in dominating and belittling Asuka as she is of others? That's why her actions make her a bully.

Since I disagree with the assetion an example wouldn't make sense. But heck, you want an example of someone who does those things? Misato. She never misses a chance to call Asuka a child, nor to demean her attempts to be taken seriously as an adult. Now mind you, Misato's generally correct in her assessment, but that's beside the point. She's doing exactly what you claim Asuka is doing, albeit with a less abrasive demeanor. Same effect, and considerably more fallout.