Toji, Kensuke, and Hikari

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Ray
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Postby Ray » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:57 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
Well, I think it depends greatly on what Toji told Sakura about Shinji, be it before or after N3I.
Maybe Toji told her that he didn't believed that Shinji willingly tried destroyed the world to save Rei, and defended his case against the general opinion.
Or maybe the people mainly hates Shinji because he's the son of Gendo Ikari, and nothing more than gutting open the Geofront is held against him, but Sakura isn't influenced by that again thanks to what her brother told him about Shinji.
Or maybe she's just very good at putting her personal grief aside and put a nice smile for the sake of her role as a medic.


Touji is the kind of person who would defend Shinji even when it hurt. In the original series he got his leg ripped off and he still didn't hold it against him! (If he is still alive and shown in Final, giving him a robot leg or a crutch would be a great shoutout to the original series.)

As for Sakura. . . Shinji needs kindness, but he also needs honesty. A fake smile isn't going to help anyone.

SPOILER: Show

Shinji:

STOP SMILING! I know you really hate me deep down for what I did to Touji! Just stop it! stop smiling and hate me like everyone else! I'd rather be hated than be lied to again!

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:19 pm

^
But if her smile was fake or not remains to be seen in FINAL.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby wiser3754 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:43 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Well, if EVA-01 is the one that stopped Lilith's rampage, then why Shinji doesn't remember something about it?
Hell, if it's really EVA-01 which stopped Lilith, then that would make it and Shinji heroes that saved mankind again, so why did WILLE treat him like a war criminal?

That theory doesn't make sense, and there could be other Evas used to pierce Mark.06, since the incident involved the 12th Angel, that means that some time passed between the end of 2.0 and said events : maybe EVA-02 was repaired, or EVA-08 finished and sent to Japan(the preview implied that it what almost completed), or maybe that was one of the unseen Evas, like Unit 07, if Unit 08 was almost finished, then it stands to reason that 07 was even closer from completion. Maybe Toji became a pilot and was the one who impaled Mark.06 and Lilith with EVA-07, making him a hero!
Or maybe that was a team effort involving Mari and Asuka and whoever else was also a pilot at the time.


Why doesn't he remember saving Asuka which may have happened only days ago? He was essentially EVA-01 for the 14 year duration and once removed and formed back into his human form, the memories were either left within EVA-01 or as of now, regressed memories which may come to surface via dreams or nightmares.

But seriously, Unit-02 or Unit-08 stopped Lilith? Asuka couldn't even stop Unit-13 in it's normal form and had to sacrifice her unit to stop the Mark.09. And when Unit-08 came into contact with an awakened Unit-13 it's arms started to turn to core, not to mention that Unit-08's design in the preview is different than in 3.0. No halo being the biggest change meaning no supernatural abilities.

The Mark.06 had awakened along with Lilith and when pierced by a Lance and subsequently removed from Lilith, it retains it's normal colors. Just like Eva-13 when it's pierced it returns back to it's normal
state (with wings) and just like EVA-01 it returned back to it's normal state.

Only one question remains, why has EVA-01 turned to CORE?! My explanation is, it was taking the full force of Lilith's catalytic power when attempting to subdue her as she transforming the Earth to core like wasteland.

Why does ex Nerv personnel believe it's him, they weren't there when the 12th Angel came knocking and I'm sure Ritsuko would recognise if Eva-01 had awoken again should any data sent be to her for analysis whilst being in custody of the UN, hence the accusing finger at Shinji.
Her statement to Misato "I don't know who did it, but 4th Impact was aborted", I can understand why she would say that. The variables to the abortion being either the DSS Choker, Mari, Unit-13's self mutilation or Shinji himself would drive anyone to an inconclusive outcome.

Compare that to when we see what happened to Lilith and the revelations that come out of her, too many variables to form a coherent answer. Was the Mark.06 who killed her, or did she kill herself or did something else kill her.
Either way, the third impact began in her chamber, Nerv was trying to keep the Angels from reaching her, one eventually made it, SELLE had planned 3rd impact as depicted in the Dead sea scrolls along with the fulfilment of the covenant with Lilith, there was only one functioning Eva that we know of that was in no-ones control but Shinji's, he stopped it and took not only the effects of 3I but also the blame.

Yeah, if Anno wanted to hate Shinji, why not ostracise and condemn him for doing the right thing for what may have the only right thing Shinji had ever done, besides saving Asuka upon request and not starting another impact upon awakening of course.

Cue Monk Ed for surgery, this thread's gonna need it as I just went completely off topic.
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:00 pm

Just opening an eye and frying a menace is different from awakening even with a LoC impaling it, descending through the main shaft and attack and defeat Mark.06/12th Angel/Lilith!

And with the LoC, Unit 02 and/or 08 could had perfectly stopped Lilith, that spear is the ultimate god-shooter.
But anyway neither Asuka or Mari seemed surprised by seeing Lilith's cadaver, Mark.06 or the 12th Angel, and were only chocked to see that the former was still alive. That means that they knew at least in the broad lines what happened down there 14 years ago, so if EVA-01 was the one which stopped Lilith, WILLE should know it.

As for your question, EVA-01 didn't turned to core, it turned to core the tesseract encasing it, and later EVA-02's robot arm when it connected the Wunder igniter. That means that Awakened Evangelion emits a sort of radiation that turns their immediate surroundings into core material, but the Eva itself is still intact. Look at how EVA-13's power started to turn EVA-08's hands to core but when it was finally deactivated took back it's original colors without any trace of core erosion on the armor.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Ray » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:02 pm

For the sake of argument. Let us assume the best case scenario, that they are alive. Would it help or hurt Shinji's sanity to see them again? Would it just be another reminder that his old life is gone and he's never getting it back? Wouldn't meeting a 28 year old Touji, Hikari, or Kensuke, even ones that supports him and wants to be friends with him again, just cause him pain? It's awkward enough being a kid with only a few friends, but now all his friends are grown up and have moved on with their lives. While he's still the same insecure person he was when he last met them.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:09 pm

^
I think seeing them alive and well will make Shinji far happier than knowing them dead, even if they're now 28 years old and moved on their live, Shinji isn't that egocentric.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:04 pm

Considering the state of literally everyone else he meets, seeing that his peers grew up might show him that there's hope for him to move on, too.

One of the biggest things that he's been confronted with is the fact that there's nothing beyond where he is now. He was gone but his peers are the same age, Rei is just a shell, there's no life in the world. He comes back into a pointless existence.
the prophecy is true

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Postby Dataprime » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:04 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Considering the state of literally everyone else he meets, seeing that his peers grew up might show him that there's hope for him to move on, too.

Was Hikari even Shinji's friend to begin with?

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:03 pm

If they said she was off screen I'd buy it. He's clearly friends with the Stooges.

Rebuild is short on the banal domesticity that Eva spends some time on, so there's a gap to be filled in.

The domestic scenes are focused on the main trio and building and then horribly, cruelly demolishing the greatest ship ever, Shinji and Asuka, who are destined lovers born to each other's embrace, an act of personal insult aimed directly at me, which I found so egregious that I nearly marshaled all my eldritch might to hurl a curse at Anno before the balm of Marisuka stayed my hand.
the prophecy is true

Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski

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Postby Ray » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:15 pm

What?

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:22 pm

Oh. Sorry.

If Shinji met up with Hikari in Final and it was implied they had a cordial relationship prior to N3I but it was all off screen and not shown in 1/2.0 I'd buy it without reservation since it's not critical to the plot.

I'm pretty sure they're all dead, though.
the prophecy is true

Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:53 am

View Original PostDataprime wrote:Was Hikari even Shinji's friend to begin with?

Well, Shinji did mentioned her to Kaworu when he talked about his past life in Tokyo-3 and how he wonders what happened to everyone(this is the scene just after Shinji receive Toji's shirt, and just before Kaworu shows him the outside world), but he mentions her as "Class rep", so IMHO that means that Hikari was an acquaintance of Shinji, but not as close as Toji and Kensuke.

My pet theory is that Hikari was the one who was going in Misato's apartment to give him and and Asuka the missed homework when his pilots duties made him skip school.
But according to (somewhat) official side-material, namely the "Evangelion Chronicles" magazine, it's Asuka who's actually a close friend of Hikari, but it was off-screen and only implied via Asuka citing her as being the one for whom she was cooking.

View Original PostRay wrote:What?

That's Chuckman for you, you'll get used to it! :lol:
But he's right in that the domestic scenes, peaceful and full of funny silliness, make a very hard contrast with the harsh, cold and militaristic atmosphere in Q when Shinji was aboard the Wunder.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Mr. Jive » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:09 am

Hikari was not Shinji friend or acquaintance. He was the only member of the trio she didn't like. By the way,seeing how touji an kensuke took a joyride whit Shinji in the first movie, don't that means they are apart of the curse too?

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:22 am

Well Shinji did cited her to Kaworu as the people he wondered of there were alright, so he has some acquaintance with her, although not the extent of Toji and Kensuke, maybe she was the one who brought him his homework when his (and Asuka's) pilots duties prevented him to go to school?

And where did you saw that Hikari didn't like Shinji? She never showed any sign of hostility toward him?

As for your last point, we don't know yet how a pilot get "cursed", maybe it's just by piloting at least once, or maybe it happens when you have a too great plug depth, like it happened to Asuka, then Mari and finally Shinji in 2.0.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby wiser3754 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:00 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Just opening an eye and frying a menace is different from awakening even with a LoC impaling it, descending through the main shaft and attack and defeat Mark.06/12th Angel/Lilith!

And with the LoC, Unit 02 and/or 08 could had perfectly stopped Lilith, that spear is the ultimate god-shooter.
But anyway neither Asuka or Mari seemed surprised by seeing Lilith's cadaver, Mark.06 or the 12th Angel, and were only chocked to see that the former was still alive. That means that they knew at least in the broad lines what happened down there 14 years ago, so if EVA-01 was the one which stopped Lilith, WILLE should know it.

As for your question, EVA-01 didn't turned to core, it turned to core the tesseract encasing it, and later EVA-02's robot arm when it connected the Wunder igniter. That means that Awakened Evangelion emits a sort of radiation that turns their immediate surroundings into core material, but the Eva itself is still intact. Look at how EVA-13's power started to turn EVA-08's hands to core but when it was finally deactivated took back it's original colors without any trace of core erosion on the armor.


The point you made about EVA-13 is my point exactly! Same with the Mark.06! It awakened, turned white and emitted the same radiation along with a then resurrected Lilith. Just the sheer size of them would dwarf any EVA not just in size, but in power as well.
You have to take into consideration the "Covenant with Lilith" using the "True Evangelion" and not to mention SEELE's outlay of the HIP terraforming the earth so that Lilin would adapt and change to the world around them.

Also, why would SEELE send out Unit-01 to space when 3I was required? Yeah it was a premature move
but still it did what SEELE was trying to do. Fuyutsuki's statement to Gendo after n4I "Look at this mess. Nearly everything went as SEELE had intended". He's looking at the red earth and the lop sided black moon, SEELE wanted it to happen. If Unit-01 had killed Lilith I'm sure it would give SEELE more than enough reasons to send it out to space.
And would you also consider that if both Unit-01 and the Mark.06 hybrid went toe to toe, the energy in which they produce for one to subdue the other would have considerable collateral damage to the Earth in the battle's aftermath? I'm sure WILLE knows of EVA-01's and Shinji's involvement in Lilith's death, but his methods to do so went a little bit to far.

The lance is the "Ultimate god-shooter", doesn't explain why they should have just thrown it instead of cutting off her left hand, her feet, head and disembowelled her while piercing both her and the Mark.06.

And one more thing, we never saw what would happen should an Angel make contact with Lilith nor one making contact with ADAM in NGE. Shouldn't the aftermath of the contact between the 12th Angel and Lilith not to mention if Kaworu had made contact with ADAM satisfy everyone's curiosity presented in 3.0? If that's case, I'm surely sated.
I watch and speculate.


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