I have some questions about Asuka…

[Axx°N N.]

I've heard about this a lot but haven't really looked into it yet, here or elsewhere, has it been specifically commented on, and preferably, translated?

I've only heard this second-hand as well so I tried to get to the bottom of it. I couldn't find tweets from staff (unless my twitter search skills are totally crap), but there are endless tweets from fans about comments made by staff during some youtube video/event called "Khara Radio," but unfortunately the link they keep sharing is now set to private. Here's an example tweet. Another one. And an article.

A rundown of what was said:

Mari=Moyoco is a theory originating from Toshio Okada.
Dismissing his credibility, staff emphasize that Okada hasn't been in contact with Anno for years, and has no contact with Moyoco historically.
From the staff POV, the origination of Mari is actually Tsurumaki, and they describe her as "stemming from his libido."
They specifically call the theory (and Okada) "misguided."

All problems with second-hand relaying of information and translation taken into account, I hope someone can come up with the original words, radio broadcast and supposed tweets.

Anyway, judging by subsequent fan tweets the Mari=Moyoco theory only strengthened in popularity, with many pivoting to "perhaps the creator denies it, but he's protesting too much so it's obviously true" or "even if it wasn't intended, creators sometimes don't realize the basis for their expressions so it's still true, it's just subconscious."

Perhaps it was set to private because they decided silence was less controversial (and validating) than a statement, especially because they mentioned Okada by name.

[FelipeFritschF]

Ah, yeah. Oshida has a very curious reputation, since at the same time that he's an insider with deep knowledge of Anno and Gainax (but not Khara...) he is also known to make exaggerations and being very much a showman. Rikki is a fan of his, I think, so a number of his "seminars" on Eva have been translated here:

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Statements_by ... _seminairs

Notably, he says the NHK doc was trying to make Anno look good, and more original than he really is (instead getting inspiration from Yamaga, a fair point), and called it sloppy. He might have a point, since Anno, as Miyazaki's more or less appointed successor and responsible for Khara's quite visionary projects of sponsoring new talents, is now one of the anime industry's luminaries and enjoys tremendous tremendous social prestige. You don't really get higher than remaking Godzilla, Ultraman and Kamen Rider. Still, it's his perspective.

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Evangelion_3. ... ocumentary

It is worth nothing that Maeda describes Mari as being handled by an outsider (Enokido, presumably, taking the 2.0 CRC into account), though Tsurumaki is also the one who apparently directed her scenes (along with Asuka's), according to Saakamoto and Miyamura both.

[ElMariachi]

Sorry to butt into this convo, but am I missing something here? Kaworu straight up tells Shinji in the revelation scene in Q that Third Impact occurred while he was absorbed inside Unit 13, and that's what caused the red earth. Kaworu even tells Shinji this event has been planned since ancient times, and that's Gendo/Nerv's true purpose. Then Kaworu says what initiated all of that in the first place was Shinji being the trigger for what the lilin call the Near Third Impact. Why is it impossible for Shinji to know there were two different events when Kaworu outright tells him there were? It seems like he knows very well that they are, but he still feels guilt for all of it because him initiating N3I is what led to everything else happening too. I don't know, Kaworu's explanation always seemed pretty clear to me. Maybe this is an issue with how the English translations render his dialogue, because the Japanese he uses is not cryptic in the slightest and actually fairly easy to follow.

Not gonna lie, you're the first person I met that says that they immediately understood that there were an actual 3I after N3I from Kaworus explanations.

[Derantor]

@Axx°N N.: Reg. subtletly: Well, that's the problem with subtlety, isn't it? It's by definition something that isn't spelled out, so, you can always say "It isn't spelled out, so it isn't there to begin with, because if it was important, it would have been spelled out, right?" That's also why it's difficult to give examples of subtletly, because, well, you need to pick up all the other subtle hints too. If you start from a position where you assume that NTE is a mainstream product without any subtlety (a false dichotomy to begin with - those two characteristics aren't mutually exclusive), you can of course dismiss any example of subtlety because you don't believe it's there to begin with, dismissing all the small hints because individually they indeed don't mean much. Besides, there's the inherent bias of hindsight: once you figure out what a subtle hint means, the hint itself becomes rather obvious, making it seem less subtle than initially percieved. This goes on to the broader discussion of what subtle even means. If Misato having a small smile (for whatever reason, really) doesn't count as subtle, what would be "small" enough to count as subtle? Feels like we end up at a situation where the only true subtlety is stuff that is outright not shown at all, because if it is noticeable by paying a tiny bit of attention, it isn't subtle anymore.

Given how open-faced so much of Shin seems to be, I don't see why it wouldn't similarly be open about its lore [...] Can we say the stuff with Adams, Minus Space, Eva Imaginary, and the Book of Life similarly fit together in a way that feels consistent enough to let slide in favor of the character story? [...] I fear that the films are more liable to being misread because of how long we've been left to wrack our brains over the missing pieces, and that at this point much has been glommed onto the narrative that simply doesn't exist within the narrative.

NTE's lore is notoriously hidden, despite some things being said upfront (e.g., Misato telling Shinji right away that they've got Lilith down in Central Dogma), but it leaves it to us to figure out the rest. And nobody ever suggested letting the character stuff slide, this is another false dichotomy. Exploring the lore implications does not in any way preclude the character exploration, nor does focusing on either thing diminish the other. And again, if you don't go out and look, you can't even know what is part of the narrative and what isn't. If you dismissed half of what's actually in the narrative because "it doesn't mean anything/the movie doesn't want me to think about it", then you are effectively missing stuff you were supposed to pick up on.

there is a loop but it almost doesn't matter beyond Kaworu's character arc, and perhaps doesn't matter beyond his metacontext.

Another example of where you can only make this statement with any sort of certainty if you actually take the time to look and take everything into account, and don't stop at "Kaworu says he's looping, therefore, loop theory confirmed", for example.

NGE and EoE hid certain things but never the emotional broad strokes of its characters, and that includes characters that become like gods or always were. If what it means (and has always meant) for characters to go into Instrumentality is that we, the audience, penetrate into their deepest psyches and origins, why would it go the length of revealing to us that Asuka is a clone (something meant to shock and feel like hidden truth coming out with all its discomfort) but not that any of the characters are Adams? If the intent of staff were to be obscurantists and craft enigmas they wouldn't be on twitter clarifying and outright debunking certain readings like "Mari = Moyoco."

The staff pointing out that Mari isn't meant to be Anno's real life wife has really no bearing on anything beyond what is being said: "Mari isn't Moyoco"... Mari's voice actress also told twitter that Anno told her "Mari's secrets, secrets she will take with her to the grave." So, that leaves us exactly as wise as before when looking at the movie series from a diegetic perspective ...

And again, it is no contradiction to be upfront and on the nose about the broad emotional strokes while keeping a lot of things hidden. A work can be more than one thing at different points, or even at the same point; there's no dichotomy going on here, where a work on the whole is either subtle or on the nose. And the same argument you propose here, that NTE would have shown Asuka to be an Adams, can be turned onto EoE: in EoE Instrumentality, Shinji never talks to Gendo; therefore, Gendo isn't ultimately important for Shinji as a character, right? Maybe showing her as a clone, making Asuka the same thing as Rei, was meant to point you to the possibility that she's similar to Rei in other ways too - after all, Asuka draws parallels between herself and Rei earlier in the movie, and between herself and the Evas. Of course, we can just say that that's completely unimportant or only important in some meta-sense, and leave it at that. But that's a matter of personal preference, not absolute proof of anything. It's more or less saying "I dismiss these hints because I think they are unimportant. When leaving out all the hints that something more is going on, I come to the conclusion that nothing more is going on, unsurprisingly."

[Axx°N N.]

Well, that's the problem with subtlety, isn't it?

Yeah, I have to admit, the conversation re: subtlety quickly reaches the point of absurdity. It's like that unknown-origin oft-misattributed folk quote, "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

And again, if you don't go out and look, you can't even know what is part of the narrative and what isn't. If you dismissed half of what's actually in the narrative because "it doesn't mean anything/the movie doesn't want me to think about it", then you are effectively missing stuff you were supposed to pick up on.

I don't want to be misunderstood as advocating for sticking to assumptions or selling NTE short by default; I think, especially just for the sake of thorough discussion, we should humor all the potential depth there may be in NTE. It's just that, somewhere along the line of all that discussion, there has to be a ceiling hit eventually where we begin to reel back to where the truth might sit lower than the outermost reaches, the point after which things are going too far and fans are spending more time than was ever intended on certain elements, inevitably attaching meaning instead of divining and extracting it--which is not to say that everything, rather, is meaningless, but that the meaning is merely different than the most overelaborate of takes.

I'm not trying to say NTE is purely unsubtle, but rather that discussion shouldn't be trying to reach a predetermined point, whether that point is a hater's "NTE is brainless" or the extreme opposite, "NTE is a brilliant work rivaling Ulysses in depth and esotericism," which, frankly, is the notion I get from a lot of scattershot "the meaning of Eva can be understood only by reading the Kabbalah in the original hebrew" fan wank. In approaching NTE we should be stepping away from our preconceptions and trying to meet it at its level, otherwise there isn't really a viewer/creator communication occurring, but rather a "viewer taking the creation, running off with it and tying it up in the cellar" schtick.

As for NTE's lore being "notoriosly hidden," my personal feeling isn't that it's hidden, but more like obscured to save time. The sequences of events are hidden but we're told the important implications and consequences, and those explanations don't seem like they're crafted to leave anything out but said specifics. It's almost like everything is veiled and exposed simultaneously.

And the same argument you propose here, that NTE would have shown Asuka to be an Adams, can be turned onto EoE: in EoE Instrumentality, Shinji never talks to Gendo; therefore, Gendo isn't ultimately important for Shinji as a character, right? Maybe showing her as a clone, making Asuka the same thing as Rei, was meant to point you to the possibility that she's similar to Rei in other ways too - after all, Asuka draws parallels between herself and Rei earlier in the movie, and between herself and the Evas. Of course, we can just say that that's completely unimportant or only important in some meta-sense, and leave it at that. But that's a matter of personal preference, not absolute proof of anything. It's more or less saying "I dismiss these hints because I think they are unimportant. When leaving out all the hints that something more is going on, I come to the conclusion that nothing more is going on, unsurprisingly."

But the ambiguity of Instrumentality persists in that we don't know how much of the individual Instrumentality is being witnessed by its central star, Shinji, or how much of him is painting even Gendo's Instrumentality. If EoTV is anything to go off of, Shinji is seeing it all, and that's always been my impression. The extreme montage effect when all the voices are talking at once isn't directly portraying Gendo's scene, but it does speed through all of NGE's episodes, and the impression at least in a visual/aural/visceral sense is one of overwhelming totality.

Nonetheless, Shinji does see Gendo later on in EoE. And around that same point, in describing themselves as love and hope, Rei and Kaworu, our two godly beings, seem to have actualized and understood their true natures. I don't see why Asuka would be any different in Shin, and I don't see why Shin's Instrumentality would leave anything out when the indication seems to be the same as it ever was: Instrumentality is getting at the very deepest roots, this time around with much less poetics. Given that Shinji confronts Kaworu, Rei and Asuka in terms of who they are underneath all their layers, including the fact that Kaworu is involved in some kind of time abnormality, something that could have remained a hint and instead "had our attention drawn to it" as you suggest about Adams, the exclusion of Asuka being an immortal being is such an inconsistency that Occam's Razor comes in handy here, stopping us at the point that Shin's math is a formula that (go figure) actually calculates. The overwhelming abundance of overt communication occuring in Instrumentality isn't serving the intended function if we construe it as secretly cryptic, or take the opportunity to insert our choice of omissions.

[Blockio]

"NTE is a brilliant work rivaling Ulysses in depth and esotericism," which, frankly, is the notion I get from a lot of scattershot "the meaning of Eva can be understood only by reading the Kabbalah in the original hebrew" fan wank. In approaching NTE we should be stepping away from our preconceptions and trying to meet it at its level, otherwise there isn't really a viewer/creator communication occurring, but rather a "viewer taking the creation, running off with it and tying it up in the cellar" schtick.

Strawman much? As Dera has pointed out, basically all you have been doing so far is deny any sort of deeper-than-surface-level readings, and when confronted with evidence to the contrary, you default to what more or less amounts to "everyone who looks deeper than I do is just a stuck-up nerd looking for depth that isn't there" (because of course, you are the singular objective measure for anything). If you want anyone on here to take you seriously instead of just dismiss you as an anti-intellectual troll the same way that you dismiss arguments that don't fit your surface-level reading, you're gonna have to do a whole lot better than that.

[Axx°N N.]

Strawman much? As Dera has pointed out, basically all you have been doing so far is deny any sort of deeper-than-surface-level readings, and when confronted with evidence to the contrary, you default to what more or less amounts to "everyone who looks deeper than I do is just a stuck-up nerd looking for depth that isn't there" (because of course, you are the singular objective measure for anything). If you want anyone on here to take you seriously instead of just dismiss you as an anti-intellectual troll the same way that you dismiss arguments that don't fit your surface-level reading, you're gonna have to do a whole lot better than that.

I realize I worded that poorly; I wasn't referring to Derantor's post itself or even the Adams theory, I meant "fan wank" in the plural and was speaking generally.

I don't see what's anti-intellectual about finding "Shinji & gang are all immortal beings" arbitrary, because if it were true, which is something I'm completely fine with considering, is that really in itself intellectual or deep? The content of the film as is seems more intelligent than that, whatever one makes of its merits. There's a difference between deeper-than-surface-level readings and obtuse thoeries, which, again, I'm not against but totally reserve the right to critique, or don't I?

Not sure what evidence you're talking about, as I only see vague gestures toward the fact that it's a theory that exists.

Derantor comes closest here: "It ties together a lot of hints given throughout the movies and gives explanations for things otherwise having no explanation, offering deeper understanding that way."

But there's no specifics there and the rest of the conversation has been in the abstract.

But really, what's controversial about the idea that fan theories can be misguided or actually detrimental to understanding the film? Can't they? Khara seems to agree when outright negating the Moyoco Anno theory.

[Derantor]

As for NTE's lore being "notoriosly hidden," my personal feeling isn't that it's hidden, but more like obscured to save time.

Not trying to be contrarian here, but obscured and hidden are the same thing, aren't they? Your initial point was that it was plainly visible ... Anyway ...

I'm not trying to say NTE is purely unsubtle, but rather that discussion shouldn't be trying to reach a predetermined point, [...] In approaching NTE we should be stepping away from our preconceptions and trying to meet it at its level, otherwise there isn't really a viewer/creator communication occurring, but rather a "viewer taking the creation, running off with it and tying it up in the cellar" schtick.

Agreed that we shouldn't reach a predetermined point. "NTE Is a mainstream product and has never been subtle" is on the other hand a quite definite statement as to what it is, and that's what you said. So, you already have a predetermined point you're trying to reach? In any case, what is NTE's level? Who is to determine that? Either Anno steps forth and says something towards that himself (which he won't do), or we're left to determine that at our discretion. The rest of this discussion leads invariably into the Death of the Author topic, and I'd rather not open that can of worms.

Nonetheless, Shinji does see Gendo later on in EoE. And around that same point, in describing themselves as love and hope, Rei and Kaworu, our two godly beings, seem to have actualized and understood their true natures.

Is he? We see Gendo when he gets eaten by Yui, that's all. Kaworu and Rei are answering the question "What are you two within my heart" - "What do you two represent from my point of view and for me personally." That's not an all-encompassing statement, reducing their nature as gods to those two things. We see they are much more than that, right before, and EoTV made it pretty clear that there is more than one truth out there. Shinji is asking about his own truth, his PoV, nothing more. It would be rather strange for Rei to reduce herself to "The hope that one day people can understand one another" when she's an ancient seed of life which created all life on earth. That hope might be an aspect of her, but it can't encompass her whole being or be her true nature. It's taking a single piece of evidence and boiling it all down to that one thing, considering the case of what Rei and Kaworu truly are closed.

that Occam's Razor comes in handy here, stopping us at the point that Shin's math is a formula that (go figure) actually calculates.

But that's the point. Shin's math doesn't make sense if there's nothing special about the pilots, from my point of view. Occam's razor only says that you shouldn't make things more complicated than they need to be - but they do need to be as complicated as they need to be to make sense. For your other point, Shinji doesn't talk about Lilith's true nature with Rei, either, or about Kaworu's nature as an angel. In fact, Kaworu is the only one of the definitely fishy trio (Rei, Kaworu, Mari) to bring up his nature in any way. (Which is one of the big failings of the movie - Lilith just doesn't matter at all, looking at the surface; neither she nor Rei have any agency beyond trying to keep Shinji from piloting for 14 years.) So, the inconcistency argumenty doesn't hold. Shinji doesn't talk to Asuka much at all; he witnesses part of memories, at best. To assume that we get a complete picture of their characters, or the deepest part of them, is just that, an assumption. Might be true, might be false, but the way I see it that's completely up to interpretation at this point. Asuka quite prominently does not communicate with either Mari or Shinji when she has the chance, so especially in her case, I wouldn't assume that the viewer gets to see everything about her, either. Asuka is the third person featured on the other platform in the finale - she goes where Rei and Kaworu are going. Now, it might mean something ... or it might mean nothing at all.

But there's no specifics there and the rest of the conversation has been in the abstract.

Yes, because this conversation was never about Adams theory but about the abstract concepts. Anyway, this:
"I don't see what's anti-intellectual about finding "Shinji & gang are all immortal beings" arbitrary, because if it were true, which is something I'm completely fine with considering, is that really in itself intellectual or deep? The content of the film as is seems more intelligent than that, whatever one makes of its merits."
again rubs me the wrong way. No, there's nothing inherently intellectual about the idea itself - but then again, "the movie as is seems more intelligent than that" states that it's an inherently stupid idea, to which I can only say: if you haven't yet seen the evidence, or even understood the framework, how can you say it's more stupid than "what we see in the movie?" (Put that in quotes, because we aren't even sure what we see in the movie, and saying that "the movie as is" does not contain Adams theory is already making a judgement about the theory and the movie, namely, what it definitely does not contain.) From my point of view, it's more intelligent to introduce a concept like the Adams and then actually do something interesting with it, like bind it up in the plight of our main-characters, and plant all the hints that there are in the movie that there's *something* funny going on (repeating myself because these are the most easily accessible ones that don't require long writeups in themselves): Asuka directly comparing the pilots the the Evas, the pilots showing superhuman abilities, "Children with fate built into them", the cyclical nature of the Impacts themselves, the Covenant with Lilith, SEELE's Plans, who uses whom in which way ... The reason you are not seeing easily digestible bite-sized bits of evidence from me is because it requires a lot of writeup to tie everything together, and we still don't have the final movie in our hands to test the theories against. That's the nature of dealing with stuff that's sometimes only visible in freeze frames or hinted at obliquely. Like I said, take every single piece in isolation, and it seems preposterous to build a theory on any single thing, like the fact that Asuka is associated with the number 9, or all the blue goo stuff, or any other number of things. But, much like in a court case, you pile on evidence until you can be reasonably sure about something. If you're actually interested, the old Adams thread is a nice starting off point, even though it is highly outdated. If you feel that the evidence presented in those threads doesn't fulfill your standards of what you'd consider significant, most of the other stuff that's up on Reichu's blog or which will be used later on to explain the thought process behind the theory will not fulfill your standards either.

Anyway, I think we should stop this meta discussion about what should and should not be done. Nobody is saying you need to know the Kaballah in Hebrew to make sense of NTE. That's just patently absurd, so you don't need to worry about that. (Like ... literally. I've never seen anybody claim anything like that, not even from the darker corners of the net ... I'll leave it up to your imagination what those are.) As I tried to explain to Nuke, seeing parallels or wondering which works Anno might have used for inspiration is just that: parallels and things that can help us understand the movies, but not evidence in and of itself.

All I wanted to say originally was that it's bogus to claim that you can't relate to Asuka if she turns out to be an ancient god. And I think it became obvious that it's indeed a bogus claim. All the axe-grinding against overanalysing works while mischaracterising the nature of analysis that's actually done is really besides the point I wanted to argue, tiresome in itself and doesn't make me actually want to engage in theorizing, so I will stop now.

[Axx°N N.]

Not trying to be contrarian here, but obscured and hidden are the same thing, aren't they? Your initial point was that it was plainly visible ... Anyway ...

And I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the difference to me seems to be that hidden means well covered, to the point you don't even know its location at first glance, whereas obscured means it's detectable but there are obstacles, such as an eclipse or holding a sheet in front of someone whose silhouette is still visible. My point was that although there are specifics obscured, the important aspects about them are delivered plainly. We don't know what occured in the time-skip, but we know who blames who and what it effects in terms of Shinji's arc, for instance. We know everything but nothing, and it seems that Shin spends a lot of energy on what it wants and needs us to know. To be fair, maybe you can just chalk up "they're all Adams" as a "not need to know." But if it exists I feel "hidden" is more accurate because it doesn't get a backlighting.

"NTE Is a mainstream product and has never been subtle" is on the other hand a quite definite statement as to what it is, and that's what you said. So, you already have a predetermined point you're trying to reach? In any case, what is NTE's level? Who is to determine that? Either Anno steps forth and says something towards that himself (which he won't do), or we're left to determine that at our discretion. The rest of this discussion leads invariably into the Death of the Author topic, and I'd rather not open that can of worms.

Anno has stepped in and since its beginning unambiguously referred to it as a more mainstream project. When Q was considered confusing the reaction by staff was to nearly apologize, and promise it would make sense come Shin, blaming people finding Q inscrutable on Shin's delay, a situation they clearly didn't intend.

I said leads me to suspect regarding NTE's creative choices tending toward the outwardly comprehensible, but you're right, when I said NTE has "never" been subtle I should have not worded it in the most absolute way possible. At that point my knee-jerk reaction was to instill the conversation with a differing perspective, because of how intensely it struck me then (and still strikes me now) as an incongruity to see NTE discussed as if it wasn't just capped off with a lot of exposition, lore reveals and character confessions. To see Adams theory specifically after Shin spent so little time on anything validating it, barring supposed forthcoming potential freeze-frame evidence, is surprising to say the least and I (maybe wrongly) felt the need to counterbalance it with hyperbole.

Nobody is saying you need to know the Kaballah in Hebrew to make sense of NTE. That's just patently absurd, so you don't need to worry about that. (Like ... literally. I've never seen anybody claim anything like that, not even from the darker corners of the net ... I'll leave it up to your imagination what those are.) As I tried to explain to Nuke, seeing parallels or wondering which works Anno might have used for inspiration is just that: parallels and things that can help us understand the movies, but not evidence in and of itself.

It was meant to be absurd, it was an exaggeration. As for using Anno's potential influences to understand Eva, that's obviously worthwhile, but has Anno even ever indicated he's a fan of Blake? Are there any references within Eva to Blake specifically, a series that doesn't hesitate in obvious tributes, homages and outright naming? I'm not being facetious here, I'm genuinely curious and drawing a blank.

I say this as someone intimately familiar with the theory, btw, but thank you (sincerely) for the thread suggestion for those reading along.

All I wanted to say originally was that it's bogus to claim that you can't relate to Asuka if she turns out to be an ancient god. And I think it became obvious that it's indeed a bogus claim. All the axe-grinding against overanalysing works while mischaracterising the nature of analysis that's actually done is really besides the point I wanted to argue, tiresome in itself and doesn't make me actually want to engage in theorizing, so I will stop now.

Maybe I should have said it so that my position was more clear, but I totally agree with you on that point re: Asuka and relating to her despite whatever she is.

Perhaps there should be a split or a thread started in advance or something re: Adams theory and if it holds up under Shin. There was more I could have said for sure, but to get it back to Asuka:

Asuka quite prominently does not communicate with either Mari or Shinji when she has the chance, so especially in her case, I wouldn't assume that the viewer gets to see everything about her, either.

I don't see why that's relevant, because she also doesn't tell Shinji about being a clone. That's for the audience to see and we see it because (in all likelihood) it was deemed important.

[Derantor]

As for using Anno's potential influences to understand Eva, that's obviously worthwhile, but has Anno even ever indicated he's a fan of Blake?

I don't think he has, no. I can't even tell you off the top of my head how Blake's mythology entered into the picture, as I wasn't there when that happened. I can tell you a little about the parallels, however, like a single god being split into multiple aspects (Adam -> Adams), entities merging and splitting apart constantly, but also being around at the same time ... E.g, Rei is around while Lilith is also around, despite Rei being a part of Lilith - it gets much more complicated than this. And yes, Adam is one of the Adams ... So it's not a case of "Anno was necessarily inspired by this", but one of seeing the similarities in two works, the other kind of outside sources I mentioned previously. As I said, it's a tool to help us make sense of things. And it's so heavily modified at this point that only a few concepts and the names remain. As I said, you can cut out Blake entirely and end up at the same place. NTE presents a pantheon it leaves mostly unexplored/unexplained, but it gives a few hints as to what's going on. For some more direct possible inspiration/parallels, take Diebuster, where Nono also sports flaming hair once she becomes "godlike".

I don't see why that's relevant, because she also doesn't tell Shinji about being a clone. That's for the audience to see and we see it because (in all likelihood) it was deemed important.

It was to counter the point that Instrumentality features very open communication - it does in part, but not in others.

To see Adams theory specifically after Shin spent so little time on anything validating it, barring supposed forthcoming potential freeze-frame evidence, is surprising to say the least

Believe me, we certainly expected a lot more from the movie, too. Kneejerk reaction was to throw the whole thing out. You can ask Lavinius (not sure if he's still around here or only on the Discord) about how Shin never followed up on all the interesting lore the previous movies established. But it's not as bleak as it seems at first glance. There's more than freeze-frames, too; just having all scenes actually available in good quality will clear up a lot of stuff very quickly. Eva relies a lot on visual storytelling, something that is as of now completely missing for the most part. Much of the evidence for Adams theory comes from visual storytelling. You can read up on Reichu's blog or the threads on the forum, to see what's there so far. I guess once the movie is out, and the theory is in an actually presentable form, there will be much more to discuss. Not sure it will be discussed here, though, as Reichu won't be coming back. I think most people who do that kind of speculation have left EGF already.

Maybe I should have said it so that my position was more clear, but I totally agree with you on that point re: Asuka and relating to her despite whatever she is.

Oh yeah, that part wasn't targeted at you specifically - more a general sentiment.^^

I say this as someone intimately familiar with the theory, btw, but thank you (sincerely) for the thread suggestion for those reading along.

Edit: I think you edited this in, because I didn't see it last time, but ... that's really not possible because the most current iteration of the theory hasn't been published yet, beyond some tidbits on twitter, glimpses of (already somewhat outdated) groundwork on Reichu's site, and other than that, it hasn't really been discussed outside of private Discord servers and DMs ... Intimate knowledge isn't really possible at this point outside of those places. I don't know when the stuff on the forum was last updated, but that's horribly out of date at this point, as I mentioned before when I pointed to those threads.

[Konja7]

I don't exactly understand the Adams theory and what relation has with Asuka.

In Shin, Asuka seems to be a clone with the 9th Angel inside. I don't think it is implied anymore in the movie.

[pwhodges]

As for using Anno's potential influences to understand Eva, that's obviously worthwhile, but has Anno even ever indicated he's a fan of Blake? Are there any references within Eva to Blake specifically, a series that doesn't hesitate in obvious tributes, homages and outright naming?

Art is often subject to influences which are not apparent. They are interesting to study, as even if they are not necessarily important for the resulting artwork, they can still throw light on the creator's path while making it.

[Axx°N N.]

Art is often subject to influences which are not apparent. They are interesting to study, as even if they are not necessarily important for the resulting artwork, they can still throw light on the creator's path while making it.

I don't disagree, but personally I'd prioritize known influences (even Ultraman) over Blake, and I say that as a massive fan of Blake.

Edit: I think you edited this in, because I didn't see it last time, but ... that's really not possible because the most current iteration of the theory hasn't been published yet, beyond some tidbits on twitter, glimpses of (already somewhat outdated) groundwork on Reichu's site, and other than that, it hasn't really been discussed outside of private Discord servers and DMs ... Intimate knowledge isn't really possible at this point outside of those places. I don't know when the stuff on the forum was last updated, but that's horribly out of date at this point, as I mentioned before when I pointed to those threads.

Yeah when I said that it's pretty relative to the last time I checked in which, aside from skimming Reichu's site and twitter here and there, is a year or more back. Thanks for the insight, I'm interested to see the full update.

[BusterMachine4]

Yeah, I definitely agree. As someone who enjoys reading Eva analysis, I feel like the Blake-based theories are really stretching the bounds of believability. I mean, we have practically no evidence that Anno has ever read Blake, and what minor Blakeian inspiration that theorists claim is in Eva can be easily dismissed. A god splitting into multiple gods, and two entities being technically one? That's not exclusive to Blake at all: In Buddhism all the gods are different forms of one single god, and in Christianity the idea of the "Trinity" plays a big role.

The Adams theory made a bit of sense before the movie was released, although as I said it was somewhat hard to believe. But it makes practically no sense to still believe in it right now, when the new movie hasn't even hinted at the pilots having some sort of divine origin. In fact, I even doubt that Rei still has the soul of Lilith in this continuity, given that it's never hinted at either. Sorry for any offense, but continuing to believe in this theory almost feels like cope: like people who were really attached to this theory before the movie was released are desperately trying to find ways for it to still be true. That's just the feeling I get, though.

[Konja7]

The Adams theory made a bit of sense before the movie was released, although as I said it was somewhat hard to believe. But it makes practically no sense to still believe in it right now, when the new movie hasn't even hinted at the pilots having some sort of divine origin. In fact, I even doubt that Rei still has the soul of Lilith in this continuity, given that it's never hinted at either. Sorry for any offense, but continuing to believe in this theory almost feels like cope: like people who were really attached to this theory before the movie was released are desperately trying to find ways for it to still be true. That's just the feeling I get, though.

I agree that I don't see any hint all the pilots have a divine origin.

However, in Rebuild movies, it seems to still be a connection between Lilith and Rei. In Shin, another giant Rei will appear (not to mention that Lilith's head took the form of Rei at some point of the Third Impact).


PS: If I'm not mistaken, they've never directly reveal that Rei has Lilith's soul in NGE either.

[ElMariachi]

Believe me, we certainly expected a lot more from the movie, too. Kneejerk reaction was to throw the whole thing out. You can ask Lavinius (not sure if he's still around here or only on the Discord) about how Shin never followed up on all the interesting lore the previous movies established.

The lore of Shin doesn't make any fucking sense, by itself or in comparison to the rest of NTE: Paris is now an Eva parts warehouse for no reason, there were two Third Impacts yet the blame falls of the guy who triggered the first, Kaji is supposed to had stopped the Third Impact yet only a handful of people survived, they are reduced to scavenge for old Soviet era military material and US museum ships yet NERV and SEELE can shit Evas by the truckload, there have been a war for 14 years yet the humans can found isolated settlements without defenses that commerce between them just fine despite the giant murder machines all around the world, we were always presented four Adams with four spears but actually there were five of them and six spears and four giant battleships-bird things and they can create spears and here's a new one never hinted to had existed before and you can now create your own Lilith with the power of IMAGINATION for all your Impact needs, and an Eva always needed to eat one Angel to awake and be able to start Impacts but actually EVA-13 needs to eat another one to start another Impact and there was an adult original Asuka among Gendo's ranks or something and Mari complained to had to involve "adult in children's business" but it actually the oldest character among WILLE...

[BusterMachine4]

However, in Rebuild movies, it seems to still be a connection between Lilith and Rei. In Shin, another giant Rei will appear (not to mention that Lilith's head took the form of Rei at some point of the Third Impact).

There might still be a connection. However, it's also possible that the reason Lilith took Rei's form is because one of the Ayanami clones was piloting Mark 6 during the second phase of Third Impact. Or it could just be yet another meta reference that's not supposed to make sense in isolation. There are many possibilities, though.

PS: If I'm not mistaken, they've never directly reveal that Rei has Lilith's soul in NGE either.

They never directly reveal it, but just like Rei being a clone of Yui, it's heavily hinted at: Kaworu, who is explicitly stated as having the soul of Adam, is repeatedly described as being Rei's counterpart, and the "forbidden union of Adam and Lilith" in the Third Impact involves Adam's embryo being implanted in Rei's torso. There's much more hinting about the connection in NGE than there seems to be in Rebuild.

[Konja7]

There might still be a connection. However, it's also possible that the reason Lilith took Rei's form is because one of the Ayanami clones was piloting Mark 6 during the second phase of Third Impact. Or it could just be yet another meta reference that's not supposed to make sense in isolation. There are many possibilities, though.

I would really like to know what happened in that Third Impact.

In Shin, we will see a flashback where Mark-06 seems to be "fused" with Lilith, but I read Lilith has already lost her head in that flashback.

They never directly reveal it, but just like Rei being a clone of Yui, it's heavily hinted at: Kaworu, who is explicitly stated as having the soul of Adam, is repeatedly described as being Rei's counterpart, and the "forbidden union of Adam and Lilith" in the Third Impact involves Adam's embryo being implanted in Rei's torso. There's much more hinting about the connection in NGE than there seems to be in Rebuild.

Is it explicitly stated that Kaworu has the soul of Adam in NGE? I remember this was only hinted in NGE too.

That said, you're right that the hints are stonger in NGE.

[BusterMachine4]

Is it explicitly stated that Kaworu has the soul of Adam in NGE? I remember this was only hinted in NGE too.

It wasn’t stated in the original broadcast version, but it was made very clear in the Director’s Cut: the SEELE people said that Adam’s spirit is within Kaworu, while its body is in Gendo. The second part of that sentence caused a lot of confusion in the fan base because of its apparent contradiction with the scene of Kaworu discovering Lilith, but the first part explicitly states Kaworu’s true nature, heavily implying Rei’s true nature in the process.

[Konja7]

It wasn’t stated in the original broadcast version, but it was made very clear in the Director’s Cut: the SEELE people said that Adam’s spirit is within Kaworu, while its body is in Gendo. The second part of that sentence caused a lot of confusion in the fan base because of its apparent contradiction with the scene of Kaworu discovering Lilith, but the first part explicitly states Kaworu’s true nature, heavily implying Rei’s true nature in the process.

Thank you very much for the clarification.

I've seen the Director's Cut in a dub, but it seems this part wasn't so clear there.