Shin Eva General: Reborn

[Blockio]

Yamashita mentioned an original plans for the Rebuild movies ending was that Shinji in Eva-01 and Gendo in Eva-13 will fight for all eternity.

Heh, and here I was making jokes about Getter Armageddon parallels in Q.

[UrsusArctos]

I don't get the gymnastics being performed regarding Gendo when we have staff statements about him being a good example of a strong patriarchal figure in contrast to "feminized" modern men. Victim blaming shouldn't come as a surprise from such markedly of-their-generation viewpoints.

Who exactly said this, anyway?

If Gendo's meant to be some kind of "strong patriarchal figure" he embodies everything wrong with that idea and makes an excellent case for the so-called "feminized modern man" being better. NGE Gendo and NTE Gendo are both severely messed up human beings, although so far NTE Gendo seems significantly more callous and villainous than his broken original series counterpart.

[Zusuchan]

Ta-dah! Here it is. So Tsurumaki did talk about Gendo as a "cool father" which is...a bit interesting, seeing as the narrative of at least NGE doesn't seem to show him in exactly that sympathetic terms and his having neglected his own son is an important part of his EoE story and in any case, it certainly doesn't seem like the impression of Gendo as a positive influence actually managed to find its way into NGE or NTE and in both cases, it seems like the character isn't meant to be viewed in that way. (He's even worse in NTE, arguably.)

That said, unless Anno has said he intended for Gendo to be like this, this might just be Tsurumaki's own (stupid) opinion.

(Also, "Gendo was a positive influence who could help make Shinji more confident and adult-like" is hilarious.)

[hui43210]

Hmm, I don't see gendou as a cool dad, and if that was the intent, then they failed lol.

[EvaChero]

wow....that tidbit about Gendo is ......it's kinda laughable.

if Gendo was any colder he'd be whizzing out a yellow slushie......

[ElMariachi]

Yamashita mentioned an original plans for the Rebuild movies ending was that Shinji in Eva-01 and Gendo in Eva-13 will fight for all eternity.

So, the staff should know Gendo is a extremely problematic person.

To make a precision, in his tweet, Yamashita only said that Tsurumaki instructed him to "simulate a father and son who would continue to fight for eternity, even after their bodies were lost, for as long as they could.", he doesn't explicitly said that it was how the ending was first envisioned, although it's probable that it was the case.

Ta-dah! Here it is. So Tsurumaki did talk about Gendo as a "cool father" which is...a bit interesting, seeing as the narrative of at least NGE doesn't seem to show him in exactly that sympathetic terms and his having neglected his own son is an important part of his EoE story and in any case, it certainly doesn't seem like the impression of Gendo as a positive influence actually managed to find its way into NGE or NTE and in both cases, it seems like the character isn't meant to be viewed in that way. (He's even worse in NTE, arguably.)

That said, unless Anno has said he intended for Gendo to be like this, this might just be Tsurumaki's own (stupid) opinion.

According to the recent radio talk, didn't Anno had a much more hands off approach to the script of the last movie, with him giving them a bunch of separate ideas that he wanted to see in the movie and that Maeda and Tsurumaki tried to connect them all with a plot?
Maybe one of Anno's idea was "I want a confrontation between Gendo and Shinji where Gendo finally opens his feelings to his son, which never happened in EoE", and Tsurumaki did the rest. (this is just pure speculation pulled out of my ass)

[BernardoCairo]

That said, unless Anno has said he intended for Gendo to be like this, this might just be Tsurumaki's own (stupid) opinion.

To be honest, I'm not a fan of this notion. Of course, Anno is the creator and always has the final say in these matters. That said, Evangelion is not the work of just one man. There's an entire creative team behind it. Tsurumaki is the movie's director and, as HA's Complete Records Collection suggests, he had a major influence on the tetralogy as a whole. We all know that Anno is open to the contribution of other minds in his work. I mean, he literally outsourced all of Mari's creation and development to his partners. According to Yasabe, he seems to entrust minute details to the minds of other staff members. (at least when it comes to some elements).
What I'm trying to say is that Tsurumaki is an important person and we should probably take his statements into account. He doesn't seem to be giving a mere opinion, but commenting on Gendo's actual conceptualization as a character.

[FelipeFritschF]

Ta-dah! Here it is. So Tsurumaki did talk about Gendo as a "cool father" which is...a bit interesting, seeing as the narrative of at least NGE doesn't seem to show him in exactly that sympathetic terms and his having neglected his own son is an important part of his EoE story and in any case, it certainly doesn't seem like the impression of Gendo as a positive influence actually managed to find its way into NGE or NTE and in both cases, it seems like the character isn't meant to be viewed in that way. (He's even worse in NTE, arguably.)

I put that there! Hehe!

It's important to keep this in mind, too:

(Ogata):"One day, I got a call from Khara, Inc. saying, 'We'd like to discuss the scenario,' so I went there and had a meeting. Anno said, 'I want to know your opinion on how to deal with Shinji's inability to speak at the end of 3.0.' "I told him, 'I'll do whatever Anno decides,' but he said, 'Now I feel closer to Gendou than Shinji. The only people who can understand Shinji's feelings now are Ogata and [Anno's assistant] Ikki Todoroki' (laughs)."

Perhaps this is ultimately why Gendo gets a redemption that seems to be a 180 compared to EoE - Anno is Gendo now, not Shinji.

There is also this from S&P:

SPOILER: Show

Takekuma: You are projected into every one of the characters in your work, but you were in Gendo's position, right? The staff had to follow you anyway, even though [they] didn't know what [you were] thinking.

Anno: I'm in that position as far as my standing is concerned. As to whether I'm projecting that much [into him], I don't really think so. But he is certainly my shadow.

Takekuma: Speaking in terms of the drama, there is this enmity between parent and child, [but] the [actual] struggle [between them] remains unrealized.

Anno: Right. It's vague. I was saving it until the final episode, thinking I would do it then.

Oizumi: What I thought was intersting is that at the outset you kill all of the mothers. Was that a projection of something like your [own] maternal image?

Anno: Yeah.

Takekuma: For me, it was different. For me, it was my father who wasn't there. It's unusual, I think, [for people of] my generation to be confronting their fathers.

Anno: I'm not sure that it's a real father [that Gendo represents]. Well, not a father in the sense of a parent with a blood relation to his child, but more, I think, [in the sense of being] a representative of society or the system. That's why he has that expression.

Takekuma: So, he's kind of amorphous.

Anno: The angels are the same. I made them appear amorphous in that way because, for me, society is unclear, the enemy is unclear.

Takekuma: Gendo is [a representation of] the boundries or the pressure of society itself.

Anno: That might be it. Perhaps Gendo is [a representation of] society itself.

[Kendrix]

well, in the recent maeda interview there seemed to be a clear notion that he's a villain, tragic or not


it might be helpful what exact word was translated as "strong" here.


The final showdown in TuaT rather characterized him as someone who "wouldn't admit his weakness"

[Zusuchan]

El Mariachi wrote:
According to the recent radio talk, didn't Anno had a much more hands off approach to the script of the last movie, with him giving them a bunch of separate ideas that he wanted to see in the movie and that Maeda and Tsurumaki tried to connect them all with a plot?

The NHK doc showed Anno getting pretty hands-on with the movie, so I'm not really sure how true that statement is. And I strongly doubt Anno would just let important events into the hands of others and not at least check them. I can never see him casually not caring about what his work shows.

What I'm trying to say is that Tsurumaki is an important person and we should probably take his statements into account. He doesn't seem to be giving a mere opinion, but commenting on Gendo's actual conceptualization as a character.

Of course Tsurumaki is important and what he has to say regarding Eva has a bit more weight behind it than what an average animator has. But despite the fact that Anno's had a lot of helpers during the productions of both NGE and NTE, if one were to look at some kind of an "author" for Eva, it would really be Anno. Despite the genuinely important and invaluable help he has received, even in terms of direction and story, from Tsurumaki, Maeda and others, he ultimately decides what goes in NGE and NTE and he decides what 'fits'. Even Tsurumaki being a 'director' for NTE is more akin to him overseeing parts of the animation process and suggesting story ideas, if I understand it correctly, rather than him doing what he wants. (And the directing process for NGE was quite similar.)

And that's partly why I think the notion of Gendo as a good, strong father might just be a Tsurumaki thing. It's entirely possible for him to have a different understanding on certain tenets of Gendo than Anno does and he doesn't hold the same amount of control over NGE/NTE as Anno. This, coupled with the fact that I don't really see the narratives/stories really giving off the vibe of Gendo as a good, strong father. Now, maybe the intended ideas weren't communicated well, as it happens, but considering how much of NGE's narrative fits together well (as does a lot of NTE's, though not as much), that would be kind of surprising (and then there's the material Felipe gave, where Anno says Gendo is for him more representative of society than of a father and doesn't appear to consider Gendo a "good society" on top). So I'm really more inclined to take it as maybe being just an opinion by a staffer, not necessarily the intention.

FelipeFritschF: Thanks for the material! Anno getting closer to Gendo than Shinji with the passing of age sort of makes sense, considering how Gendo was in many ways originally a grown-up Shinji and Anno's own closeness to that boy. The redemption Gendo reportedly gets in Shin is interesting for me, especially with Gendo being so much of a worse being, so I wonder how it'll play in the film.

[BernardoCairo]

Here is the thing, though. I don't think there's a big gap between writers and directors. What do I mean by that? I don't think Anno is capable of holding such a different position from his director. Sure, as I said before, Anno has the final say in these matters. That said, he obviously doesn't work alone. Wasn't Miss Miyamura the one who said that Tsurumaki himself took care of Asuka's journey in Shin (the second most prominent character in the movie)? I'm not a filmmaker, but I believe the staff should work as a unit (at least to some extent). How can the creator have such different opinions from his director? You pointed out that Tsurumaki works primarily in the animation process for the movies. Even if that's the case, how can Tsurumaki capture Anno's ideas and concepts if they're not in sync? I mean, Gendo and Shinji's relationship is one of Evangelion's pillars. Again, how can the two have such different views? Keep in mind that Tsumaraki didn't say that he thinks Gendo is a strong father who had a positive influence on Shinji. He said that Ikari was meant to be like that. He most likely directed these movies with this notion in mind. Considering his position, I doubt he was alone.
Don't get me wrong, I don't see Gendo as a good father or anything like that (lol). Maybe we're taking Tsurumaki's words too literally. I mean, Gendo is a "strong" figure. He also had a positive influence on Shinji (for all the wrong reasons lol). In a way, Ikari inspired his son to be a better person and defeat him. That doesn't mean he's a "good father". Gendo looked down upon Shinji in HA. Now he is the one left behind and Shinji, who has matured, is trying to save him too. Perhaps that was the idea Tsurumaki wanted to convey with this statement.

[Zusuchan]

Here is the thing, though. I don't think there's a big gap between writers and directors.

I feel like you consider Tsurumaki of higher importance on both NGE and NTE than he really is. He's a "director", yes, but so is Anno-and Tsurumaki's direction isn't the same control that say, David Fincher has whenever he makes a new movie, when the writer is a partner and important part of the film's production and making, but also not perhaps intimately involved with the actual transformation of their script into a finished film. Tsurumaki is more like a really important assistant-he handles critically important parts of the production and also makes a few suggestions to the story whenever he feels like it or it's requested by Anno-but Anno is ultimately the director/writer and central author of the work, who decides what needs to be like that and what can be like that. If Tsurumaki doesn't do something to Anno's liking, it'll be vetoed. (Similarly to Shin Godzilla, where the credited co-director Shinji Higuchi actually took care of the visual effects and didn't interfere with the other parts of the film.) Tsurumaki and all the other helping directors are extremely important, just as are the low-level animators, but ultimately, it's Anno's vision. This also means for me that the opinions of people like Tsurumaki are important, but not as immediately weighty as the opinions of Anno himself. And this has been sorta the case with both NGE and NTE.

Maybe I'm drastically mistaken about Tsurumaki's importance, but in that case, just call me out.

Now Tsurumaki's statement that Gendo was meant to be like that is weird and lends credence to the idea it's not just really an opinion, but it could also be a mistranslation or something of the kind. And seeing the narrative's complete incapability to give off the impression he speaks of, I have my reservations. (And people working together having very different ideas on what they're doing and still ending up with good results is known to have happened.)

[BernardoCairo]

I feel like you consider Tsurumaki of higher importance on both NGE and NTE than he really is.

What exactly makes you think like that? First of all, I'm just talking about NTE (his role in NGE was much more limited). Anyway, all I said is that he is an important figure within the production of these movies. That's a fact. He works as closely as possible with Anno and has some control over the story (as pointed out by Miss Miyamura and suggested by HA's CRC). That said, I'm obviously not saying he is as important as Anno, who is the creator and has complete creative control over Evangelion (even if he's not a "one-man army").
Anyway, Tsurumaki's overall importance is not what we should be discussing here. As a matter of fact, I agree with you that he doesn't have complete control over the narrative's progression and works under Anno's supervision (even if he is somewhat important). What I'm trying to say is that I don't see a movie director being capable to misinterpret such a basic and fundamental aspect of the story he's working with. Gendo and Shinji's relationship is one of Evangelion's pillars. How can Tsurumaki convey Anno's ideas and concepts to the scenes if he doesn't understand them? How can the two work so closely and still "disagree" on such fundamental issues? Nobody works alone. As the boss, it's your responsibility to organize the team, set goals, and make your project ideas clear. This is a series of movies that cost millions to produce and mobilized hundreds of people. They probably have a fairly extensive design document detailing various elements of the story (including basic things like Shinji's relationship with Gendo).
Tsurumaki may not be the most important person behind NTE's conception. That said, he's directing a lot of scenes. He should have a basic understanding of what he is working on (as a guideline). It's a simple case of communicating with the rest of the staff.

[Konja7]

The last line in episode 26 of NGE is this: "To my father, thank you. To my mother, farewell. And to all the children... Congratulations!"

So, maybe the idea that Gendo as a father "helps" Shinji to grow isn't new or exclusively from Tsurumaki.

FelipeFritschF: Thanks for the material! Anno getting closer to Gendo than Shinji with the passing of age sort of makes sense, considering how Gendo was in many ways originally a grown-up Shinji and Anno's own closeness to that boy. The redemption Gendo reportedly gets in Shin is interesting for me, especially with Gendo being so much of a worse being, so I wonder how it'll play in the film.

At the end, Gendo is still represented a grown-up Shinji in Shin. The movie seems to focus on Shinji and Gendo being similar.

I think Gendo in NTE isn't so different from Gendo in NGE. It's just the Gendo in NTE has the "ability" to realize more horrible things.

[BernardoCairo]

tweet-body

— twitter-user (@username) date

Ladies and gentlemen, it's happening.
I haven't been this fucking happy in a while lol!
It's like Christmas, but better (and with mechas).

[Zusuchan]

BernardoCairo: I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see no reason why Tsurumaki may not interpret something differently from Anno (not necessarily a misinterpretation, just a different understanding)-they just need a common understanding of the whole of what they're trying to do, be good in their respective job issues and work together well. They might view Gendo differently, but still come off agreeing on some basic tenets and how to tell his story. There's the famous anecdote about Harrison Ford and Ridley Scott disagreeing on whether Deckard is a replicant or not-that did not stop them from having some common understandings and to the numerous fans of the original Blade Runner film, this did not hurt the value of the film, because Deckard still lives up to both POVs. Maybe a matter of intentional ambiguity is slightly different from something like what we're saying, but Ford would have had to play the character in way fitting to his interpretation. So Tsurumaki thinking of Gendo through his own lens is possible and Anno does not strike me as a man to insist how wrong he is.

Konja7: I haven't seen Shin, so I'd rather not say what Gendo is and is not. The past three films don't necessarily hint towards him being a grown-up version of Shinji, but I can 100% see that as happening in Shin. And I do think Gendo is quite different between the two works because in NTE, he comes across as far more widely, horrifyingly manipulative and uncaring about his son, obsessed with his own plans, compared to NGE, where he's more "just-keep-Shinji-away-from-me-please-I-don't-want-to-deal-with-feelings" and is ultimately shown to have legitimately cared for him, while also showing interest in things other than what would just enhance his own plans (though he is hidden in those aspirations of his a lot).

As for the ep.26 bit, I always interpreted that as Shinji coming to terms with his father and moving away from both hating him and being overly concerned what he's thinking. There is Gendo as a good narrator too, which I have to admit I haven't thought about more than just subscribing it to yet another voice telling Shinji how things are going, similar to the end of ep.25.

[Jayfive]

Can't find any confirmation that they are using the Funi voice case, the Netflix NGE voice cast or a entirely new voice cast.

I get the feeling it's going to be the latter of the three which if true is a damn shame.

[ChaddyManPrime]

Can't find any confirmation that they are using the Funi voice case, the Netflix NGE voice cast or a entirely new voice cast.

I get the feeling it's going to be the latter of the three which if true is a damn shame.

Maybe, Spike may have had perhaps been alluding to this a while back with a gif he made and replied to if he knew what was going on.

[ElMariachi]

Personally, in the end I don't care if it's Tsurumaki, Anno or both's doing, in the end we still have the movie having several characters telling Shinji that he should go talk and reconcile with his father, and showing the culmination of Shinji's character arc being him opening up to his father and try to understand him, when said father has been an actively malevolent force that manipulated and completely ruined his life on purpose just to advance his plans, all because he couldn't live without his waifu, and the story frames it as an unconditional good thing by having it being the key to have him abandon his plans yet still being rewarded by having him reunited with his wife to die at her side (which was his real objective all along), which I think carries a very unfortunate message. (to stay polite)

[Axx°N N.]

Excuse the run-on and glibness:

I can't help but lump Shin in with a general tendency I've seen lately in this kind of naive optimism that exists in shonen and "me & my friends" western adventure-type shows, where it's an unironic embrace of "jut be happy and open and things will work out" philosophy that in its worst cases (Steven Universe) ends up excusing in-universe versions of Hitler, as if the correct response to a group of starved freshly-liberated Holocaust survivors is "Well, no one even tried to give the guy a hug, of course things went bad!"