Shinji's Actions

[Lennik]

I've noticed something in the last ... let's say 8 years on this website, and it's that we're very quick to define selfishness, but no one seems as eager to present a definition for selflessness.

This leads me to believe selfishness/selflessness might not be the best dichotomy for judging Shinji's motives. Or any character's motives, for that matter. Nobody looks good under a microscope, and I'm sure any action could be described as selfish if it's examined too closely and too strictly. Sometimes I start to wonder how this poor little schmuck can possibly live up to such high standards of selflessness and maturity that I'm not even sure I've seen any fully grown adult truly live up to in the real world. But I guess that's why he's interesting.

[Zusuchan]

When I talked about Rei Q as someone who begins as what the perverted Rei fans actually want to be, but then goes off to be her own person aka something the perverted Rei fans don't want her to be, I didn't mean to say that's all of what Rei Q's character was. Obviously she has other reasons for existence as well and even if at least a part of her existence can be said to be similar to my thoughts, then that doesn't have to be an example of spite or giving a middle finger either, with NTE's anti-escapist message that still understands why people can be escapist and indulge in such bad tendencies.

Lennik: I don't think every action can be described as selfish when looked at close. When I think of "selflessness", I think of someone being the sort of person who isn't out for their own good and wants to genuinely help others. The thing is, for me at least, that despite NTE!Shinji wanting to be a good person, he's still consistently unwilling to step out of his own escapist desires. And I feel that if we don't look at the role selfishness and selflessness can play in characters' actions, we might just as well stop attempting to decipher them anyway, since there's not a lot of point in an undercooked examination.

[ElMariachi]

When I talked about Rei Q as someone who begins as what the perverted Rei fans actually want to be, but then goes off to be her own person aka something the perverted Rei fans don't want her to be, I didn't mean to say that's all of what Rei Q's character was. Obviously she has other reasons for existence as well and even if at least a part of her existence can be said to be similar to my thoughts, then that doesn't have to be an example of spite or giving a middle finger either, with NTE's anti-escapist message that still understands why people can be escapist and indulge in such bad tendencies.

I wouldn't say that Rei Q was what the "perverted Rei fans" wanted her to be, they want someone quiet and submissive yet completely devoted to her man, while Rei Q is the "quiet and submissive" traits pushed to the extremes (near silent and robotic) to the point that she became creepy. (which is the main clue for the audience that this Rei is not the Rei from 1.0 and 2.0)

Ironically, even 2.0's "poka Rei" wasn't the "perfect escapist waifu material", because while she was quiet (that's part of her character) and devoted to Shinji, said devotion didn't came out of nowhere, but was the fruit of their interactions and exchanges during the two movies (Shinji didn't picked up on her eating habits and her love of classical books out of nowhere), and said devotion wasn't exclusive to Shinji, as she was also devoted to Gendo, and she also wasn't "passive", we saw her being very blunt when needed (she could be very abrasive to Shinji and prompt to call him on his shit in 1.0) and the diner to reconcile Shinji and Gendo was her idea.

[dzzthink]

I want to draw a parallel with the Hedgehog dilemma scene in episode 4 of the series. Initially, Shinji's attitude could be perceived as bratty as he piloted the Eva without wanting to and seemed to be cocky of his entitlement. But at the end of the episode Misato realises that Shinji actually does want to be part of her life and NERV but puts up a front due to painful feelings of never having a 'home' and therefore feeling as though he is not deserving of such a role. The point isn't to show that Shinji is a flawed character but to showcase his desire to connect with others with either Rei, Gendo, his mother mostly in a human way. He abandoned Rei and Misato when things went to shit and left for good but returned when he realised he needed Rei more than ever and must therefore save her. He regrets his cowardice of rejecting others just like how he cry out to Toji and Kensuke in ep 4. It is this desperation to not run away that makes him want to make up for. His relationship with Rei is purely relating to need for connection (she possesses qualities that remind him of his lost mother and of other people like Misato and Asuka). He feels he wants to belong and not run away but this causes more issues.

I agree his action in 3.33 were a bit over-the-top but at the same time I sympathise with him. Personally, I have done some pretty stupid things before in my past, such as leaving a freezer open during a class project causing all the samples to defrost over night and ruin all the experiments. I was accountable and reckless but I didn't intend to ruin my experiments. Perhaps more of a point should be about the use of the term escapism. It could be interpreted as Shinji's psychological defence mechanism when faced with the possibility of Rei's death. He is essentially in the denial phase of grief as he faces again the same trauma he has experienced in the past: abandonment and loss of someone he cares for.

[Derantor]

I've noticed something in the last ... let's say 8 years on this website, and it's that we're very quick to define selfishness, but no one seems as eager to present a definition for selflessness.

The main problem I see is that people assume just because an action benefits yourself in any way, it is by definition selfish. Which is of course highly reductionary. Every altruistic action also benefits yourself in some way, so it can be framed as pure selfishness: lets say you are a firefighter and rescue a child from a burning house - you die in the process, while the child survives. An act of pure selflessness, right? Well, no: maybe you were doing it for the admiration; maybe you left behind a family that now has to cope with your loss - that maybe relied on you to a large extent. In fact, you ran away from your responsibilities. You took the cowards way out; you saved one child, but if you had survived, you could have helped many more people over a much longer time.

Alternatively, lets say you saved the child and yourself - we can apply the same skewed logic to this case. If we assume that true selflessness can not benefit yourself, it becomes obvious that you should have died saving the child, because that is the only way you can not experience any benefits of your action. After all, you are dead; you are truly unable to be selfish.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: trying to frame highly complex circumstances like the ones Shinji finds himself in in absolutes is doomed to lead nowhere. It becomes a question of assuming his motivation: so lets assume he let humanity return to life - but only because he wants to meet them again. To which I say: so what? Would you rather have people actually stay dead because Shinji didn't act for the right reason? Because he had his self-interest in mind? Fact of the matter is, he gave everybody else another chance, without any conditions attached: he might want everybody to thank him for it afterwards, but what he wants is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. It's up to every single person how they see him - but they are only able to do that because he gave them that chance.

[LightDragonman]

Selfishness vs selflessness seems to be, I think, a theme that 3.0 was trying to communicate. And if I'm being perfectly honest here, I don't think that it pulled it off very well, if only because it chose to frame Shinji's actions in the most negative way possible without much room for interpretation. Not to mention that Anno's philosophy of "choosing to live above everything else" also runs counter to a lot of the whole notion. Unless of course, the next film successfully manage to resolve the theme in a satisfying manner.

Personally speaking, I think other anime have managed to pull of this theme in a much better and even-handed manned.

[Zusuchan]

ElMariachi: I guess I should have clarified that Rei Q is kind of what the perverted Rei fans want her to be, but pushed to the extreme so much that she becomes an empty shell that points out the underlying emptiness of using a fictional character to find meaning in your own life in the first place. Of course, I have no idea whether or not that's what Anno intended, but that's the one thing I can see Rei Q as when discussing her as a meta statement meant for a subsection of the Eva fandom.

As for the whole selfishness-selflessness thing, I agree that human behavior is a rather complex thing and that seeking absolute reasons for an action is not taking into account the complexity of real-life situations. Still, I think that good things resulting from bad ideas aren't lesser in their goodness, but that doesn't mean the people should not maybe be looked at as bad because their reasons for doing good things weren't that bad either. Similarly, people who did bad things for good actions shouldn't be overly villainized for what they did. Still, I think a lot of this also has a lot to do with the specific circumstances, so it's a bit of a pointless argument in that case.

I think dzzthink made a good point that Shinji might have been in the "denial" stage of getting over grief during the final scene of Ha and I think I might have been a tiny bit too rough on Shinji when dismissing his actions at that time as entirely escapist-however, I still think that he was engaging in an escapist action in accordance with the other escapist actions he's taken other times during NTE and I think looking at things from a wider perspective should make people realize that Shinji was largely being in denial in a bad way when trying to save Rei.

Edit: Also, I really can't understand why someone would still think "care for yourself no matter the immorality and cost to others" is a genuine theme of NTE.

[ElMariachi]

Selfishness vs selflessness seems to be, I think, a theme that 3.0 was trying to communicate. And if I'm being perfectly honest here, I don't think that it pulled it off very well, if only because it chose to frame Shinji's actions in the most negative way possible without much room for interpretation. Not to mention that Anno's philosophy of "choosing to live above everything else" also runs counter to a lot of the whole notion. Unless of course, the next film successfully manage to resolve the theme in a satisfying manner.

It's important to remember that most of the framing of his actions has been done when he was at neo-NERV, which is full of people who have an interest on Shinji seeing his actions in the worst way possible to make him desperate to earn a redemption.
We don't know yet the full context of his involvement in the events between 2.0 and 3.0.

[Lennik]

I don't agree that 3.0 portrayed Shinji's actions in "the negative way possible." We're clearly meant to feel bad for him because we know it was an accident. If the movie wanted to portray his actions in the most negative way possible, it would have presented him as a villain, not a guilt-ridden pawn.

[Ray]

I don't agree that 3.0 portrayed Shinji's actions in "the negative way possible."

If that was the intent of Anno I still feel it was a bit lacking in execution. Especially now from what we've seen so far of 3.0+1.0 that the destruction was on a larger scale than initially thought. I was hoping ElMariachi's theory was right and that it was only Japan or only a certain amount of the world that was destroyed.

[LightDragonman]

Yeah, that's the problem. Anno chose to showcase the consequences in such a huge and globe-changing manner that it is really hard to see it as being something that can be viewed in anything other than the most negative light, which also casts an unfortunate shadow on Shinji and Rei's connection. Though, given it's Anno, it being shown as completely negative should be expected.

I don't know if the 2011 earthquake had anything to do with Anno's decision to have the damage be so high, but what's there is there. Honestly, had it been even slightly less catastrophic, it would've been for the better in terms of "grey moral-zone" if that makes sense.

[Thesufferingpumpkin]

Slightly off topic but it’s really sad currently to see megumi Ogata in a wheelchair after her emergency operation on her back.


Hopefully she will make a full recovery

[Ray]

Slightly off topic but it’s really sad currently to see megumi Ogata in a wheelchair after her emergency operation on her back.


Hopefully she will make a full recovery

She's a tough woman. She'll be fine.

[Heaven Piercing Man]

Yeah, that's the problem. Anno chose to showcase the consequences in such a huge and globe-changing manner that it is really hard to see it as being something that can be viewed in anything other than the most negative light, which also casts an unfortunate shadow on Shinji and Rei's connection. Though, given it's Anno, it being shown as completely negative should be expected.

I don't know if the 2011 earthquake had anything to do with Anno's decision to have the damage be so high, but what's there is there. Honestly, had it been even slightly less catastrophic, it would've been for the better in terms of "grey moral-zone" if that makes sense.

Hell, remember EoE? People still think the entire world is destroyed just by looking at the beach scene, yet the movie clearly shows that only part of Japan got destroyed by the emergence of the Black Moon and the death of Lilith might have caused tsunamis, but the rest of the world was just "vacated"

And about the 2011 quake, Christ, the number of conspiracy theories I've heard linking it to the production of Evangelion Q (particularly from Q haters still stuck on the Donkey preview) is annoying.

[kuribo-04]

Honestly, had it been even slightly less catastrophic, it would've been for the better in terms of "grey moral-zone" if that makes sense.

That would be a very different story to what Shinji is dealing with there.