Shinji's Actions

[Ray]

And I do think Shinji's decision was mainly motivated out of selfishness. He literally lays out his motivations during the scene, saying that he doesn't care what happens to the world, and only wants to save Rei. That seems less like a selfless heroic act, more like selfishly considering the person who he cared about most over everyone else. He didn't intend to destroy the world, but that outcome happening as a consequence is clearly intended to be a case of irony: He said that he didn't care about the world, but now that the world has been ruined as a result of his actions, he's devastated.

It’s not only that, it’s the reality he didn’t even succeed in what he set out to do by piloting the Eva. He didn’t save the only person he cared about. If his actions had resulted in at least Rei coming back. He might have been devastated or racked with guilt but at least he could rationalize it to himself as it being the right thing if the person he actually cared about hadn’t died. Like someone in the previously mentioned trolley problem if the person they were saving were their family or friend. But he didn’t even get that, he has nothing to show for it. No “validation” at all. not that I personally believe he was doing it for validation. At least in that specific context.

It’s part of what’s so frustrating about this series it has everything going for it to make a great heroes journey where the protagonist becomes something more than he is, but it keeps sabotaging him at every turn for alleged flaws that would be considered virtues in the world of something like Gundam or Dragon Ball. But at the same it’s the frustration from the series that gives it the appeal it has. If it did play the heroic stuff straight, It would not be the juggernaut that people still talk about decades later.

[ShinjiStranglesAsuka]

I guess that's a good point. He was relatively ok with the state of the world until Fuyu mindfucked him by telling him that's Rei Q is not his Rei, after which he broke down.

[LightDragonman]

Well hey, she was one of his closest friends, and he views her as irreplaceable to him, clone or not, so of course he'd be upset upon finding out he didn't even succeed in his goal.

I just take an issue with the decision of framing Shinji relationship with Rei as being some sort of psychologically unhealthy thing and that he needs to either never try to form a friendship with her or forget about her entirely and let her remain a distant unfeeling machine, less he be some sort of selfish mentally unstable wacko.

I mean, yeah he's mentally messed up already, but I saw his attempts to grow closer to Rei as being heartwarming, as through it, both characters slowly started to open up to others, and Rei herself became much more human. But apparently, all of her development is pointless and wasn't even worth happening in the first place, lest Shinji become the killer of millions over her.

[BusterMachine4]

Like we already said, we're not saying Shinji's relationship with Rei was bad by definition. You're making a complete strawman out of our arguments. What was bad, on the other hand, is how Shinji used that relationship to fuel his selfish outlook. Once he made a strong connection, he latched onto it, expecting Rei to give him unconditional love forever. It's the same problem that Shinji had with Asuka in the original show. But eternal unconditional love is an unhealthy, unrealistic expectation: eventually, it ends, and that's what happened when Rei got swallowed by the 10th Angel. But Shinji still wanted to hold on to that impossible idea by saving her, and we all know what happened because of that.

[Kendrix]

I guess that's a good point. He was relatively ok with the state of the world until Fuyu mindfucked him by telling him that's Rei Q is not his Rei, after which he broke down.

Really? Is that your take?
Does he remotely look "okay with it" to you? Is there anything 'okay with it' about his expressions when he sees the city or the chaos in his room afterward?

He's may be trying to defend himself in the aftermath of the shock ("But I had good intentions"! I was trying to do a good thing!")
But trying to think some up detail to cling to is itself a symptom of utter despair & guilt, denial and bargaining being natural stages of grief and all that, temporary stages that don't last long before he has to face the full despair.

It's sad, it's human. And I bet 90% of ppl who sneer in a superior manner & think they would do so much better are deluded.

Fuyutsuki dumps a lot more disturbing info on him, like that both his parents have been using him as a puppet in some shady plan since birth, that the terrifying EVA 01 and his mom are the same person, that Rei is artificial (and dead, at least the one he knows)...
That's just the straw that broke the camel's back, another bucketload of horror in such short succession that he couldn't take it anymore.

I'm not sure that any change to that scene would stop ppl ruling it "narcissistic" by default because they've decided a priori that Rei represents "escapism" & generally overstate that whole motif. It's hope, we're outright told its hope (along a host of other things; This isn't a simple one-note character but someone with her own sad story) and "communication" (as per that snippet about ep 6) that actually fits very well with the entire arc.

he latched onto it, expecting Rei to give him unconditional love forever.

Whohohoa you making a lost of fast-paced assumptions there like what do you base that on?
Like where does he ever make demands like that? It's not like he told her to come with him when he left NERV, he gave up on everything, Rei included so if anything his error lies in the other direction at least in this specific situation.
Where is the expectation there?

The closest thing maybe could be when he's upset that ReiQ doesn't respond to his attempts to interact with her but that's really muddied by the identical stranger situation.

It just seems like "fair world" fallacy all the way down. If it had a bad result clearly his intentions would have been rotten.... like that isn't in itself super childish reasoning.
Sometimes consequences happen regardless of your intentions that's the whole POINT

I just take an issue with the decision of framing Shinji relationship with Rei as being some sort of psychologically unhealthy thing and that he needs to either never try to form a friendship with her or forget about her entirely and let her remain a distant unfeeling machine, less he be some sort of selfish mentally unstable wacko.

I mean, yeah he's mentally messed up already, but I saw his attempts to grow closer to Rei as being heartwarming, as through it, both characters slowly started to open up to others, and Rei herself became much more human. But apparently, all of her development is pointless and wasn't even worth happening in the first place, lest Shinji become the killer of millions over her.

I assure you you're not the only one.
I agree with most of this though I would resent the notion that she wasn't human to begin with, just lonely inexperienced and resigned to a life of suffering and dissapearing without anyone noticing that she was even there.
She's there, having her moving own story, & ppl basically treat her as a carrot on a stick to lure Shinji into a trap. Basically like Gendo was doing.

[BusterMachine4]

I agree with most of your post, Kendrix. Shinji isn't some empathy-free monster, his actions are completely human and understandable. I bet a lot of people would act like him if they were in his situation. But that doesn't make his actions right, and I consider that to be the beauty of Eva's characters.

However, I still disagree with your take that saving Rei was good and noble, expressed in your last paragraph. I don't think Rei really represents "escapism" or "hope": Her character is much too complicated to be reduced to a simple metaphor. But I still think Shinji's treatment of her was selfish, for reasons I have already established.

[Kendrix]

Again I don't see how.

Where is the demand?

Is there some feeling of trying to prove himself tied up in there? Sure it is, how could there not be. But I don't see how that is so inherently bad or means he doesn't care about her for her own sake.

There's a difference between selfishness and self-interest. Despite what, say, Christian morality tells ppl, wanting anything for yourself isn't inherently bad (and if it was Asuka would be the evilest character). We ALL want something out of of aLL relationships, that's normal. And not just the typical 'cheap' things like sex, status or validation - quality time, good experiences connection, having obedient children etc.
You can never live a bland inoffensive life where you never offend anyone and never take the last piece of cake (isn't there this big motif in EoE about how it isn't possible to completely avoid hurting others?)

'selfishness' is when you disregard the needs of & consequences for others to get yours.

If he had known about the consequences, it would certainly have been selfish. You could also make a case about his attitude immediately before that where he wanted nothing more to do with anything cause he was mad at Gendo, though that's probably better described as reactive or impulsive, not thinking or choosing at all.
There is a difference between saying "I have no attachment to the company I just work here because I want money" and "I dont care if ppl go bankrupt I just want my money" - and what Shinji's doing/ saying with his "I don't care about the world" line is the former. He's talking about motivations.
He's not saying "fuck the world" he's saying that he's not doing it (fighting Zeruel) primarily FOR the world even if saving it would still be a consequence of fighting Zeruel (or so he thought)
And let's not forget that he answers this in response to concerns about his own safety.

And aren't we gonna talk about the fact that Misato (usually the voice of 'responsibility' - with regards to Shinji, not saying that she is perfectly responsible or anything) cheered him on?
"Oh but she didn't know what would happen then" Neither did he. At that point the inside of the plug had already 'faded to white'.


If things had gone like in the original series where the berserk EVA just roars a bit but then stops (you know, like in 1.0), and they would just both be extracted after a month (or even just Shinji), no one would be calling him 'selfish' over this. It's hindsight reanoning/ fair world fallacy.
It's no different that that bit where Shinji lies in bed and thinks to himself "But I just wanted to do a good thing" except the same reasoning in reverse, that it is because his thoughts were rotten.
It's not about his thoughts. It's about having to deal with the results, with the feeling of failure.

See the conversation with Kaworu:
"But I didn't want this! I didn't even know about this!"
"Yes but it's still real and people are angry about this."

Focussing on the purity of his thoughts is missing the point (and a misanthropic argument to begin with)


EDIT: Looks like we're having the same argument that's been going since the end of 1.0 should prolly get back to WILLE
We do have reason to think that this moment will be recontextualized again in the final movie (as in there was a staff viewing/commentary and Ogata was bleeped out when she started talking about this scene) and I'm looking forward to it...
I doubt that it will "settle the argument" though as everyone will probably have wildly different reads and opinions about the final movie itself, I mean look at us still arguing about EoE 15 years later

[Settie]

I think people are underestimating just a how badly the 9th angel incident fucked with Shinjis mind. He gave up on the life he had started to form and had 0 plan for the future. So while i do not see his actions to save Rei as narcissistic, they were definitely selfish. I see it as being desperate for some sort of redemptive act after the shit sandwich he had recently been dealt. A quick youtube-fu search for the scene in question shows that he was driven by desperation for some sort of silver lining to his now crumbled life.

He wasn't of sound mind when he decided to save Rei.

[Kendrix]

Again regardless of wether or not he was I don't see why he'd have to be unhinged to do it if he did not know the risk

How would a version with "pure" motivations even have looked like despite not including that one line maybe?


Even Ritsuko only told him "you might die" not "you might trigger 3rd impact". She didn't know this either until it started happening.

I wouldn't say he was 100% selfless because of the proving oneself/atoning for the fuckup with Asuka angle, but he did not expect to reap the fruits of this.
He expected that he would bleed out in Rei's arms and then she would go and live and maybe remember him fondly when she gets together with some other dude or gets her college degree.

It's not just the third impact that he didn't know about
He didn't know he'd survive if he was absorbed.
He didn't know her odds of a normal life were slim either way. (he's still right in telling her that her life is important & has value... and she really needed to hear that, doesn't matter from who.)



It only makes sense to judge ppl based on what they knew because there is a whole lot that none of us know in 100 years we'll all be looked at as foolish and backwards, there is an infinite amount of the unknown.


Unless you can argue that he had good reason to know the risk, I just don't see how he crossed the line from (partial!) self-interest into selfishness.
Wanting to get something out of what you do is not in itself bad.

[BernardoCairo]

I believe that people should stop looking at that scene as if everything could be simplified to a "right" or "wrong" scenario. In life, there are no such things as the concepts of "good" and "evil". Most of our actions are guided through a "gray line". Of course, there are some objectively immoral deeds. I would say that these instances can be observed when a person uses his/her own freedom to threaten another's, for selfish reasons. But most of it is just a matter of perspective.
In this particular scenario, I would say that Shinji's actions can't be seen as fortunate. I mean, because of them, most of humanity has to live in hell now. I'm not supporting that, no matter what were his intentions. He crushed the freedom of several people for personal reasons. Trying to save Ayanami was a decision that he made. However, things did not go as planned and the world paid the price for that.
With that being said, I can simpatize with Shinji a little bit. I mean, I get why he did it. We are talking about a 14 year old boy who has been entrusted with powers similar to the ones of God. Considering the nature of the situation, I find it a little bit unreasonable to expect him not to drop the ball. If I was in his shoes, I probably would have done even worse. But that doesn't change the fact that he made a decision which inflicted pain in others (even if intentionally).
Decision. That's one of 2.0's central themes, in my opinion. In a similar note, Shinji actively chose to do nothing while facing off against Unit 03 and that cost Asuka's well being. If he had fought, maybe he could have saved her while defeating the angel.
Anyway, that's life! Sometimes you have the best of intentions and fail all the same. Other times, your failures hurt the people around you. You have to deal with this, acknowledge your mistakes and strive to be a better person everyday, I guess.

[ShinjiStranglesAsuka]

I think he cares about Rei but he's also using her on some level as validation that he did a good thing in 3.0.
How did he react upon seeing the girl he risked his life (and the world) to save for the first time? He was super happy that she was safe and jumped up to hug her right?



Oh wait no lmao he just made some bitter comment about how Misato's a liar.
Come on Shinji.

Anywho. Despite him having moments like the above, I'm not gonna string Shinji's balls up like some other people. He's just a little kid after all.

[Ray]

Oh wait no lmao he just made some bitter comment about how Misato's a liar.
Come on Shinji.

Yet later in the movie in the climax he screams about how he's obsessed with her loving him again.

[Settie]

@SSA Yeah pretty much, his breakdown later on is more about his failure to save Rei and what it cost him personally in terms of his closest relationships than Rei not actually being there. His agreement to Kaworus plan was to get back into Misatos good graces rather than doing it for them. Doesn't make him a bad guy, far from it, but he's no selfless hero, and that's ok too.

@ Kendrix He was unhinged though, he literally saw the 10th eat Unit-0 in front of him. what knowledge that he possessed made him think he actually could do anything to save Rei? It was desperate wishful thinking and not something he actually thought through.

[BusterMachine4]

I think people are underestimating just a how badly the 9th angel incident fucked with Shinjis mind. He gave up on the life he had started to form and had 0 plan for the future. So while i do not see his actions to save Rei as narcissistic, they were definitely selfish. I see it as being desperate for some sort of redemptive act after the shit sandwich he had recently been dealt. A quick youtube-fu search for the scene in question shows that he was driven by desperation for some sort of silver lining to his now crumbled life.

He wasn't of sound mind when he decided to save Rei.

This, all of this. Shinji sure as hell isn't narcissistic, he's pretty much the polar opposite. Look to Asuka for a shining example of narcissism. But he was being selfish, and he wasn't of a sound mind when he decided to save Rei. He was pretty much completely unhinged, and I doubt he would have gone through with his insane plan to save Rei if he was actually thinking clearly. I don't think Shinji deserves capital punishment for reacting like a normal human in response to insane amounts of trauma, but like I've repeated over and over, it doesn't make his actions right. Just because Shinji didn't understand the true consequences doesn't make his decision any less motivated out of selfishness.

[ArtyumR]

I think he cares about Rei but he's also using her on some level as validation that he did a good thing in 3.0.
How did he react upon seeing the girl he risked his life (and the world) to save for the first time? He was super happy that she was safe and jumped up to hug her right?



Oh wait no lmao he just made some bitter comment about how Misato's a liar.
Come on Shinji.

Anywho. Despite him having moments like the above, I'm not gonna string Shinji's balls up like some other people. He's just a little kid after all.

Shinji cares about Rei (he fucked up the entire world just trying to save her, this is right there up to those times when the Doctor from doctor who does not care about what happens with the entire universe if one of his companions is in danger) but Shinji sometimes is completely self centered and narcissistic, "I have enough time to talk with her later" "what about them? Yeahh my father is behind all of this"

There are times in 3.33 that no matter how you look at it he's just trying to feel good about himself "why I feel so bad, at least I saved her that counts, right?" but then you've got little details as him searching for books just to make bonds with what it seems to be her.

So the only conclusion we can draw is that the structure of this movie requires Shinji to be completely oblivious to normal behavior and manners for the sake of "the poor guy needs a friend and no one else is there to be a good friend, it's kaworu's time babe (more than friends in kaworu's case) .."

I blame 3.33 for whatever misbehavior Shinji had, there had been gas leak (search gas leak Community) so everything seemed off, Misato is not her former self so that's why everyone is mad at Shinji for stuff he was not responsible for because if that wouldn't be the case then Shinji would never join Nerv again and you got no movie if that happens, contrived as hell.

[Kendrix]

How did he react upon seeing the girl he risked his life (and the world) to save for the first time? He was super happy that she was safe and jumped up to hug her right?
Oh wait no lmao he just made some bitter comment about how Misato's a liar.

That is because he never had any real reason to think she's actually dead or in danger.
As far as he's concerned Misato is just talking incomprehensible nonsense because one moment she was right here and the next she show up in an EVA ("How can you say that, she's right there?")

It makes no sense to consider that it's an identical stranger unless you know that clones are a thing in the setting.

No one explained anything & they barely had any time to.

what knowledge that he possessed made him think he actually could do anything to save Rei?

He hadn't seen her body.
I once watched this forensic commentary where the Dr was convinced the perp had killed her daughter because she wrote it down as an accidental drowning. But the Dr had been involved in enough cases with drowned children to know that the parents always call the ambulance no matter how obviously dead the kid is, because what if there's the slightest change...

She's have been in a sealed metal container, for one thing.

I don't think he was any more deluded than say, Misato in episode 16. Of course she's feel less guilty if Shinji had turned up alive. They had some reason to think that he might already be dead, but he might still also still be in there.


Now I'm not saying that he was putting great thought into this but deeming this a situation where "fucker should just accept that shes dead" or even likening it to Gendo's elaborate 30 year plan is REALLY uncalled for. There was a good chance she might be dead but he wasn't certain and as far as he knew the worst that might happen is that he spends the last minutes of his life ripping Zeruel to shreds and not finding her.


You have to be utterly lacking in empathy for Shinji and already having him stashed away in a "beneath you" box to describe some feeble obviously fragile attempt to hold onto any means to maintain his sanity as "trying to feel good about himself" especially under those circumstances. Like, I don't see how anyone with a shred of reading comprehension can look at that, his tone of voice, his expressions the state of his room and conclude that he actually believes that it would all be fine and dandy if he'd actually saved her.

[pwhodges]

Thing is, he had no idea that he was gonna do it. Heck, his statement can easily be excused as him being in the heat of the moment. You're not gonna be thinking about what "might" happen when someone you care about is in peril, and you have the opportunity to save him or her.

Absolutely. And there's no reason to think that Anno thinks otherwise.

What's shown in 3.0 is people who are confused and who misunderstand because they don't know as much about what happened as we do. But any apparent contradictions can readily be worked out - as I did in my fic (see signature - oh, and I also give my answer to the thread title's question). Anyway, I presume Anno will do a better job in Shin than I could hope to have done.

[Joseki]

Oh wait no lmao he just made some bitter comment about how Misato's a liar.
Come on Shinji.

From his point of view he woke up about 2 hours after seeing Misato desperately trying to stop him from leaving their house and he saw Misato putting a bomb collar on him, arrest him, threaten him to kill him and say the girl he had right before his eyes was actually dead.

I think some level of "what the fuck is Misato doing/saying" is perfectly acceptable from Shinji considering the informations he had.

Gendo knew exactly what he was doing when he sent Mark.09 with Rei mimicking Unit 00 in that precise moment. The timing was so perfect I still think he had inside info on what was happening in that room.

[BernardoCairo]

I blame 3.33 for whatever misbehavior Shinji had, there had been gas leak (search gas leak Community) so everything seemed off

Comparing season four of Community with 3.33 is extremely unfortunate, to say the least. Firstly, Anno was not fired from the production. That's still his vision for the movie. Secondly, there is nothing odd about how the main cast behaves in it. That's because there was a 14 year gap between the end of 2.22 and what's going on. People change, you know? Especially when they spent the last decade living in hell and fighting a bloody war. It is completely unreasonable to expect these people to act in the same way as they did before. Even their distaste for Shinji is comprehensible.
As I said before, I can sympathize with Shinji and understand why he tried to save Ayanami. But that doesn't change the fact that his decision inflicted pain into several people around him, even if unintentionally.
Imagine this scenario: You are an inexperienced driver who has just taken your license. One day, your girlfriend starts to feel sick and you decide to take her to the hospital. She is in really bad shape, so you irrationally chooses to drive at max speed. However, you suddenly hit someone. People are not going to be happy with you afterwards. It doesn't really matter if you meant to do it or not. The pain that you inflicted is still there. You took a decision and now you have to face its consequences (mentality, physically and legally). There is no point in not acknowledging your mistakes and hiding behind the idea that "I was just trying to help my girlfriend, I didn't see that coming". That's bullshit and you are not growing as a person from it.
So, yeah. I can see why the Wille crew is not happy with Shinji. He made a choice and now he has to take responsibility for it. That's the nature of the situation and he has to deal with it.

[ElMariachi]

Wow the subject of this thread derailed pretty hard uh.

Personally I took the end of 2.0 as a tragedy: Rei had good intentions when she sacrificed herself so Shinji wouldn't had to pilot again (and since she can be cloned and probably her soul transferred like in NGE, it wouldn't had been that much of a sacrifice), Shinji had good intentions when he piloted to save Rei (and protect the others, because at the end of the day, he does care for Misato, Asuka, Toji... or else he wouldn't had been so elated at seeing Asuka alive in 3.0), and Misato had good intentions when she cheered on Shinji for having found his reason to fight, but all these good intentions led to horrible consequences because Gendo and Fuyutsuki knew and planned for it to happen to gain an edge over SEELE, and at the end of the day that event became the first step of 3.0's hellish world, Rei is dead for good and Shinji was robbed 14 years of his life that he could had spent with Misato and the others helping fight Gendo and SEELE.

Same thing with him escaping the Wunder with Rei Q: he simply didn't had enough information to realize that it was a bad idea, and the WILLE crew didn't had the time to explain to him everything because Mark.09 attacked in the middle of their briefing. Again, this was a tragedy and not really Shinji or Misato's fault, but actually Gendo's, because he was the one who ordered the attack and planned to use again his son for his nefarious plans.

What I do lay the blame on him though is when he pulled out the spears despite everyone's warning, with the fact that he was half crazy due to his guilt being a mitigating circumstance at best. And it brought him his best friend' sacrifice as a consequence, and that's something that he'll have to live with for the rest of his life.


Now to go back to the actual theme of the thread, of course Shinji doesn't have any skill other than piloting the Eva that will be a game changer for WILLE, like Misato's leadership or Ritsuko's scientific genius, but that doesn't mean that he can't do anything of value to them, after all even Misato and Ritsuko (or Asuka and Mari for that matter) won't go far without the support of all the people of WILLE supporting them, and I can see Shinji be a part of the fight too in his own manner, he could be among the cooks, or maybe will be a junior in one of the other posts in the Wunder (technician, nurse under Sakura's tutelage...) and find his place in this world, like deep down he always wished for.

But even with that, I don't see him not having an important part of the big fight and not piloting, instead I imagine that when he'll pilot again, it won't be out of desperation like in 3.0 (or EoE) or to please people, but this time it'll be for the good fight, with a collected mind and a new maturity gained for his past experiences, because else that would mean that indeed he's a weak-willed kid that can't be trusted with a dangerous tool and that he should stay put and let the others clean up his mess, which... well would be realist (I mean I wouldn't let a 14 years old kid pilot a tank), but anticlimatic.