Theory about the coffins, Kaworu, and the EVA universe

[Monk Ed]

Indeed, there's a very high probability that this is true, and that Kaworu in Q is not the same fellow we see in Ha.

Is there any evidence for that which couldn't be explained as little more than a change in art style?

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Aside from coffins and the similarities between the mechanics of Rei and Kaworu, I really don't have anything else to add to that theory.

[WunderBah]

I can't tell if it's me or how Kaworu's behavior from 1.0/2.0 compared to his 3.0 counterpart being rather....somewhat different.

The Kaworu from 2.0 usually came off looking as shady as his NGE counterpart in a different setting, while in 3.0 he kinda felt like he wasn't exactly the same to me (sorry if it doesn't sound like i'm explaining this correctly).

[Charsi]

Is there any evidence for that which couldn't be explained as little more than a change in art style?

14 years sitting around a ruined NERV base didn't drive him absolutely bonkers?

But seriously... that's the alternative. If Kaworu in 3.33 is the same Kaworu we saw at the end of 2.22, he sat around for 14 years doing remarkably little. Maybe helping deal with the Angels that must have shown up in between but that's the funny thing...

Asuka sees Eva 13 standing there and immediately assumes Shinji is the pilot. No thought is given to it being anybody else. In fact, the only reference to there even being a 2nd pilot in Eva 13 is Mari's reference to Shinji being the backup plan after 4I commences. If Kaworu has been hanging around NERV for 14 years without an Eva to pilot, how is the possibility of his presence overlooked by what would have been his contemporaries at the time? Other than the obvious - bad writing.

What if Mark 06 wasn't really autonomous? The only version of events we have is from Q!Kaworu - what if he's lying? What if the Kaworu from 2.22 fell to become the 12th, just like Q!Kaworu fell to become the 13th? Asuka and Mari's lack of knowledge kind of works if they think Kaworu was just some pilot that went all Angelic and died 14 years ago.

Multiple Kaworu clones - very similar to Rei - makes a lot of sense to me.

[ElMariachi]

14 years sitting around a ruined NERV base didn't drive him absolutely bonkers?

That would be an explanation : seeing the world go to hell and not being able to do nothing for the past 14 years could have messed with his head(if it wasn't already messed up to begin with...), forcing him to take more extreme measures to finally make Shinji happy, after all everyone seems to have become an extremist since 2.0, why not Kaworu?

Asuka sees Eva 13 standing there and immediately assumes Shinji is the pilot. No thought is given to it being anybody else. In fact, the only reference to there even being a 2nd pilot in Eva 13 is Mari's reference to Shinji being the backup plan after 4I commences. If Kaworu has been hanging around NERV for 14 years without an Eva to pilot, how is the possibility of his presence overlooked by what would have been his contemporaries at the time? Other than the obvious - bad writing.

Just after her first attack Shinji talked to her by through EVA-13's loudspeakers to ask her what she was doing, that's how Asuka realized that Shinji was piloting.
As if she knew that there was another pilot, we don't know, but Mari must have realized it when the DSS Choker sent the signal it detected its wearer became the 13th Angel : Shinji isn't an Angel(looks like WILLE confirmed it between his escape and the final battle), so the logical conclusion is that someone else is in there with Shinji and wearing his DSS Choker. That's also probably how she knew that Shinji was still alive once the Choker exploded and came to the conclusion that he was SEELE's back-up, explaining why the Door of Guf still didn't closed.

What if Mark 06 wasn't really autonomous? The only version of events we have is from Q!Kaworu - what if he's lying? What if the Kaworu from 2.22 fell to become the 12th, just like Q!Kaworu fell to become the 13th? Asuka and Mari's lack of knowledge kind of works if they think Kaworu was just some pilot that went all Angelic and died 14 years ago.

Kaworu lying about Mark.06 being autonomous would explain how it used the LoL to spear Lilith, since a soul(i.e. a pilot) is needed to wield a spear. It could be that Kaworu was really ready to trigger Instrumentality, thinking that it would bring Shinji his happiness, which would also explain why he didn't joined WILLE to protect the Lilin once everything had gone to hell.

But I don't think Kaworu became the 12th Angel : his powers and status as an Angel don't come from his body(which is a pretty normal Lilin body, albeit with unusual hair and eye colors) but his soul : and if he already descended from First to 12th Angel in the past and got replaced by another clone without recuperating the soul, then that fresh clone would be entirely human, and thus unable to trigger an Impact(like Rei Q) and without powers, and since we saw him strolling outside without protective gear and do his magic AT Field Hax with the DSS Choker, then that means that the soul of this Kaworu is the same that form 14 years ago.

Besides I doubt SEELE would have trusted him with their plan if they already tricked him before and he noticed it.

[WunderBah]

If Kaworu has been hanging around NERV for 14 years without an Eva to pilot, how is the possibility of his presence overlooked by what would have been his contemporaries at the time? Other than the obvious - bad writing.

I don't believe something like that really constitutes as "bad writing".

[Monk Ed]

But I don't think Kaworu became the 12th Angel : his powers and status as an Angel don't come from his body(which is a pretty normal Lilin body, albeit with unusual hair and eye colors) but his soul : and if he already descended from First to 12th Angel in the past and got replaced by another clone without recuperating the soul, then that fresh clone would be entirely human, and thus unable to trigger an Impact(like Rei Q) and without powers, and since we saw him strolling outside without protective gear and do his magic AT Field Hax with the DSS Choker, then that means that the soul of this Kaworu is the same that form 14 years ago.

ATF powers come from the body, not the soul, and the proof of this is the Evas themselves.

[ElMariachi]

But if a simple copy of the body was enough to make fresh clone an Angel/Impact Trigger, then why didn't SEELE just made two copies of Kaworu to pilot EVA-13? Why take all the hassle to let WILLE recuperate EVA-01 from space and kidnap Shinji from the Wunder, with the risk they kill him rather than let SEELE get their hands on him?

And if Kaworu fell from First to 12th Angel 14 years ago, then who was the original 12th Angel? Unless we adhere to the theory that each Angel was in one of the coffin in the Moon in a Kaworu form, then "mutated" into one of the Angels we saw through the movies... but then who is/was the "true" Kaworu?

[Monk Ed]

But if a simple copy of the body was enough to make fresh clone an Angel/Impact Trigger, then why didn't SEELE just made two copies of Kaworu to pilot EVA-13? Why take all the hassle to let WILLE recuperate EVA-01 from space and kidnap Shinji from the Wunder, with the risk they kill him rather than let SEELE get their hands on him?

The only thing I contested is that ATF powers come from the soul (assuming, and it's a big if, that the basic ATF mechanics still work at least that much like they did in NGE). I just wanted to interject that in case it had any further effect on the conversation. I do not think, however, that the Kaworu we see in Q is some soulless clone like he says Rei-Q to be, for exactly the reasons you've brought up: If he was a soulless clone, he'd be just as unable to pilot Eva-13 as he claimed Rei-Q to be (unless he was lying about that stuff too but just how far can we take that excuse, right?). That's not to say it can't be a completely different soul in a Kaworu body but that's a case for someone else to make -- I personally currently think Q-Kaworu is the same Kaworu we've been seeing all along.

[ElMariachi]

I don't think too that the Kaworu from Q is another than the one in Jo and Ha, if only for the reason I also posted in the topic "Filling the gap" : it would completely destroy the power of Shinji's and Kaworu's friendship in Q since the Kaworu in there would be a fake one created by Gendo to manipulate his son, like Rei Q.


And on a side note, I don't think that Rei Q was soulless, Kaworu said that her soul was in the "wrong place", not that she didn't have one, besides I don't think that a soulless being would be able to feel emotions, and Rei Q did had some, like confusion about identity or terror in front of the giant deformed red Rei head.

The most likely explanation for me is that Gendo put an artificial soul inside Rei Q(they got 14 years to get that technology work after all!), to make the path clear in FINAL for a character arc of her where she question what make her identity : who she is(a clone of Yui and Rei II) or what she want to be(her own person, not Yui Ikari bis or Rei III), the fact her official name is "Tentative Name : Rei Ayanami" is for me a sign that she will search her own identity in FINAL(she already started at the end of Q) and will symbolize that by taking a new name.

[pwhodges]

It would also not fit with multiple Kaworus that he says in one film "I will make you happy" and in the next "this isn't the happiness you wanted".

[Charsi]

I don't think too that the Kaworu from Q is another than the one in Jo and Ha, if only for the reason I also posted in the topic "Filling the gap" : it would completely destroy the power of Shinji's and Kaworu's friendship in Q since the Kaworu in there would be a fake one created by Gendo to manipulate his son, like Rei Q.

Well, not Gendo. Since Gendo and Fuyutsuki refer to Kaworu as Seele's boy, it's pretty clear who the progenitor is. They also keep a wary eye on him and his actions, as signified by the fact that Fuyutuski mentions what Kaworu has shown Shinji, like he is operating outside of their authority.

It would also not fit with multiple Kaworus that he says in one film "I will make you happy" and in the next "this isn't the happiness you wanted".

Two successive Kaworu's cant have the same basic motivation in life (or lack of motivation, eg, Rei)?

[ElMariachi]

Blast! I forgot about the "SEELE's boy" nickname, so yeah, Gendo can't be the one who created it.

But still it doesn't change the fact that if Q!Kaworu isn't the same that in Jo and Ha(meaning a clone without the originals' soul transfered into it, like Rei Q who is not Rei III) but a copy with fake memories implanted into it, that would completely destroy the power of Kaworu waiting for Shinji during 14 years(and across time lines/dimensions/whatever the hell the "meet you again" and "this time" lines mean)

The only way I could see a satisfying way of bringing a Kaworu clone is that for some reason SEELE transfered his soul to a spare body clone of him(in another coffin?), and eventually could have tempered with his memories if his former demise came from them trying to trick him. That's it if Kaworu wasn't all for SEELE's plan from the start and they didn't needed to tamper with his memories...

[pwhodges]

Two successive Kaworu's cant have the same basic motivation in life (or lack of motivation, eg, Rei)?

It seems too specific a continuation to me (cf Rei III vs Rei II, whose memories are not fully carried over).

[Charsi]

But still it doesn't change the fact that if Q!Kaworu isn't the same that in Jo and Ha(meaning a clone without the originals' soul transfered into it, like Rei Q who is not Rei III) but a copy with fake memories implanted into it, that would completely destroy the power of Kaworu waiting for Shinji during 14 years(and across time lines/dimensions/whatever the hell the "meet you again" and "this time" lines mean)

Kaworu seems to always know more than he's letting on. Why the complex technical explanation?

He's a clone. He knows it. He knows his death is ultimately irrelevant, there are replacements, they'll just pop another Kaworu out of a box.

Kaworu's commentary in 2.22 has been the main pillar in support of a loop theory (which, heck, even i've suggested). The only way to kick it over is - as per the original post - take those lines to imply that Kaworu's met Shinji multiple times across multiple Kaworu's. Remember: we see four open boxes, so four predecessors. This plays into a Kaworu clone theory, but a slightly different kind of clone to Rei. Where both Rei and Kaworu are aware of their status and inherent disposable nature, Rei doesn't seem to carry anything from one version to the next. Kaworu seems to retain motivation and memory.

NERV have proven in 3.33 they're perfectly capable of erasing memories, and that this technology has existed since just after the original contact experiment with Yui - because we now know Shinji's memories of the incident were erased. The assumption that seems to be made here is that clones don't carry memories forward and Kaworu is somehow special. What if we've got it backwards - a "series" always carries forward memories, but Gendo is wiping Rei's memories each time to make her the perfectly obedient soldier? Doesn't Gendo ruthlessly brainwashing Rei seem a whole heck of a lot more likely that some complex soul/memory transference technobabble?

Furthermore, how does Kaworu "not existing" make waiting 14 years any more or less tragic? He still has to wait. Maybe the next clone in the line is dozing in a box for 13 of those 14 years until it becomes convenient to pop him out. That doesn't make it any less tragic in my book - it's still somebody that, no matter how many times he gets killed off, always wakes up with the same desire to keep trying to make the same person happy, always willing to give his life to do so.

[Gurren12]

Does anyone here find it kind of odd that there are 4 Adams in rebuild and 4 open coffins? It may just be a harebrained idea but there might be a correlation. In nge Kaworu knows more than he should, and there is one Adam. What if nge was the second go, with the first Kaworu for some reason becoming a Adam every time he fails.


Also what if there is a loop but instigated by the universe in a attempt to fix something that went wrong in the original timeline.

Im not saying that this is what happened but just consider it.

[monitoradiation]

NERV have proven in 3.33 they're perfectly capable of erasing memories, and that this technology has existed since just after the original contact experiment with Yui - because we now know Shinji's memories of the incident were erased. The assumption that seems to be made here is that clones don't carry memories forward and Kaworu is somehow special. What if we've got it backwards - a "series" always carries forward memories, but Gendo is wiping Rei's memories each time to make her the perfectly obedient soldier? Doesn't Gendo ruthlessly brainwashing Rei seem a whole heck of a lot more likely that some complex soul/memory transference technobabble?

That isnt consistent with what Kaworu said to Shinji right before he died to close the Door of Guf though. I distinctly remember him saying "even if your soul disappears, the wishes and curses remain. Your will roams the world as information and gradually changes. Eventually even your self is altered"

I take that kind of to mean that bits and pieces of memories will be imprinted on the next recipient of his soul but not everything is retained.

[Makaruu]

Have you all heard about that kaworu nagisa is coming back in the last movie? There were some previews released (heres a tumblr gif set about it) and well kaworu is back! So this goes in favour to many of the ideas suggested such as the kaworu nagisa series

also id like to add that in this image http://images.wikia.com/evangelion/images/6/68/Tabgha_Base_%28Coffins%29_%28Rebuild%29.png next to the first three open coffins there is some kind of roundish object next to each one and if you look closely you'll see another one of these objects next to the third open one but red instead, anybody got any ideas on what this means or if it means anything at all?

[robersora]

^
I'd really love to see that fake gif-set. Links, please.
And the round objects are something very rarely found on the moon. Stones.

[TMBounty_Hunter]

I would also like to see the guaranteed fake gif set because all the usual sources turn up nothing.