What's your opinion on the ending?

[CATO]

Is it second near 3rd impact or near 4th impact? And what about that near impact involving Lillith and Mark 06? I think the sequence should be as many near 3rd impacts and then the proper 3rd impact. But then again the second impact was aborted and should have been a near one! Damn, pointless terminology!

Anyway, does anyone else find it pointless? It seems to suffer a bit of the second death star syndrome.

I liked the impact in 2.0 much better and I really did not need to see a new one expect the proper one (if they ever decide to show it anyway). I also did not buy Shinji's motivations for this one. Sure he is confused after the time loop and rejected (forced plot design) by everyone BUT he found the only person he has ever loved and he looks happy as hell with him. Furthermore, his homoplatonic lover is with him in the cockpit and tells him to stop. The Shinji I know would do anything Kaworu asks... even decapitation. I don't buy this one.

[Reichu]

CATO, you violated the anti-spoiler policy pretty bad with your title there. Please read it and follow it.

Terminology problems aside, it is clearly called Fourth Impact in the film.

The spectacle isn't just a repeat of what we've seen before and has its own sense of context and purpose, so I'm fine with it. It's really hitting the notion that "Eva is a story of repetition" home full-force.

[Knuckles]

I don't buy this one.

Not many people do. That, and other silly plot choices made in this film are what make so many people dislike it.

[The Killer of Heroes]

The Shinji I know would do anything Kaworu asks... even decapitation.

Maybe this is the point? That this Shinji is so blinded by his selfishness (Even if his intentions are well meaning) that he only ends up hurting the people he cares about?

Maybe these movies are "rebuilding" Shinji into Gendo; To explore a story where the "hero" of Evangelion never learns his lesson fully after all.

Or maybe not. It's just a random idea I had here at 2 in the morning.

[esselfortium]

Maybe this is the point? That this Shinji is so blinded by his selfishness (Even if his intentions are well meaning) that he only ends up hurting the people he cares about?

Maybe these movies are "rebuilding" Shinji into Gendo; To explore a story where the "hero" of Evangelion never learns his lesson fully after all.

Or maybe not. It's just a random idea I had here at 2 in the morning.

They definitely have been since 2.0 at least, and there are some subtleties in 1.0 that seem to hint at it in retrospect as well.

[ElMariachi]

Maybe this is the point? That this Shinji is so blinded by his selfishness (Even if his intentions are well meaning) that he only ends up hurting the people he cares about?

Maybe these movies are "rebuilding" Shinji into Gendo; To explore a story where the "hero" of Evangelion never learns his lesson fully after all.

Or maybe not. It's just a random idea I had here at 2 in the morning.

Even in NGE Shinji was kind of selfish, he refused to fight Bardiel(or even try to save Toji) even if it was killing him and would have killed mankind by fear of "tainting" his hands, he never tried to comfort Misato or Asuka in their lowest moment, very noticeable when Misato was crying over Kaji's last message, he didn't comforted her under the assumption that he would fail because "he's only a child"... granted he himself had a lot of shit of shit piled on him and didn't really know how to comfort people, but he still didn't even tried.
The biggest case being in EoE when he decided to doom mankind because in his conception of the world everyone hates him and nobody cares for him if he gets hurt and dies, while never trying to understand other peoples' pain which could explain why they don't try to comfort him(he even get chewed on it by Rei, Misato and especially Asuka because all that was only in his head)

In Rebuild Shinji looks to me like a mix of his traits from his NGE self(with his antipathy against the world) with his manga version(notably his suppressed anger and at times very hot blooded temperament), which in the ends sometimes makes him look like a borderline sociopath... or a proto-Gendo.

His actions in N3I are a special case, because they were at the same time totally selfless("I'm ready to give up my humanity and even my life to save Rei...") and very selfish("... and I'm not doing it for you the rest of the world!"). Per se his motivations aren't really reprehensible(most people needs concrete motivations to fight, abstract things like "for the sake of mankind" are precisely too abstract for them), if it weren't for the completely unforeseen and utterly apocalyptic consequences of his actions.
Had any of this not happened, Shinji saving Rei and destroying Zeruel without triggering an Impact and Misato heard his comment about not caring about himself or the world (did she even heard him say that on the intercom?), I'm sure she wouldn't even be mad at him and in fact completely understand his motivations, and even support him in doing things for himself, after all she's doing exactly the same thing : she mainly joined NERV not for mankind's sake, but to make the Angels pay for her father's death!

During the events of the final of 3.0, when you think about it, Shinji was almost exactly the same as at the end of EoE : an huge pile of traumas brought him to a state of utter desperation, to the point he's ready to do anything to make it stop, without caring for what others could think.
But there are three big differences between EoE and 3.0, which can be summed as "his involvement", "the consequences" and "the price to pay" :
- his involvement : basically it's the difference between ordering someone to pull the trigger and pulling the trigger himself. In EoE Shinji told to Rei "fuck the world, I hate it, Rei make it disappear!" Cue Komm Susser Tod. In 3.0, HE is the one who pulled the trigger by pulling out the Spears, this time he took a much more pro-active role in the Impact.
- the consequences : in EoE, as mind-screwy and apparently depressing at it seems at first sight, ultimately the very end is full of hope : Instrumentality finally made possible communications without barriers between Shinji and the rest of the cast, leading to the destruction of his bubble of self-hatred and apathy(and it's implied the rest of the cast got his therapy session as well), he was finally ready and eager to embrace reality, and came back to said reality, Asuka came back to, everyone killed/tanged can come back too, SEELE got their false paradise and will probably stay inside it, meaning no more plotting from them, the EVAs and Angels are destroyed, Adam and Lilith disappeared and the Spear of Longinus is very very veeeeeeery far away, so no more Impacts! So in the end it's almost an hopeful ending, promising a lot of hard times indeed, but at last there is hope!
In 3.0, had Fourth Impact occurred, nothing good would have come from it : it would have been SEELE's version of it without Rei/Lilith/Adam to hijack it, and would probably involve trapping the remnants of mankind in Instrumentality, but this time without any escape(and that's the best case scenario, if their plan was the same than in the NGE2 games mankind would have been utterly destroyed!)
- the price to pay : in the end of EoE everyone Shinji cared about was dead at that point, so he didn't had to think about how he will sacrifice them in the altar of his self-hatred, really he had nothing to lose! But in 3.0 his actions had a very heavy price : the little(OK, almost non-existent) remaining trust from the people from his "old life" he cared about(i.e. WILLE) and more importantly the life of his last true friend and only remaining emotional support : Kaworu.

These three different are very important, because that's what will, in my opinion, make Shinji reach the same epiphany than in EoE and put him out of his little bubble of selfishness : Rebuild is far more straightforward than NGE(be it a choice from Anno or a constraint of the format), there is no place for long introspections inside a train for Hell where Shinji questions his existence, motives and the rest of the Universe.
So Rebuild shows him how he was selfish by directly putting him in a bad situation were the responsibility is his and throwing the consequences right in his face, without escapes routes : in 2.0 his responsibility was at best very mixed : he only wanted to save Rei, didn't knew that his EVA could awaken and become some kind of an Impact-throwing God, and didn't had any clue that an Impact was happening.
But here, in (Near) Fourth Impact, it was all his doing : he did piloted EVA-13 with Kaworu, he did broke Terminal Dogma's seal with the intent to pull out the spears, he did knew that something akin to an Impact will happen when the pull out said spears. And even if Gendo tricked him and Kaworu about the spears actually present in Terminal Dogma, it doesn't changes the fact that Shinji did HAVE the possibility to stop right here, to prevent Fourth Impact to happen. But he didn't. He lost his nerves under the pressure(even if I admit that an angry Asuka could be an immense source of stress!), and completely ignored everyone's pleas to stop right now and surrender, that the spears aren't the one they are looking for, that it will only make the situation worse than what it is... and, completely locked in his panic and selfish desire to be THE ONE to save the world so that everyone will love him again, pulled out the spears, shit happened, and Kaworu had to sacrifice himself to stop this madness.
And this time, Shinji can't blame the circumstances, his ignorance about what was about to happen or the fact that couldn't do anything to stop it, because it's false, he did screw up, hard, someone he cared immensely died because of it, and this time it's entirely his fault, Kaworu's blood is on Shinji's hand, and he will have to live with that fact for the rest of his life, deal with it!




In that light, I will conclude that 3.0 ending was perfectly coherent with Shinji's journey and Rebuild straightforwardness compared to NGE.

[pwhodges]

Thank you for that excellent analysis, which expresses thoughts close to those I was moving towards when I suggested in another thread that Q is parallel to EoE rather than just the preceding episodes.

[ElMariachi]

Well, I remember that old topic in which it was discussed that narratively 2.0 has Zeruel's attack, then jump to EoE with his world-ending Impact(even if it was "Near").
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/13436/SPOILER-Our-Mistake-with-20-and-30-as-post-EoE-fiction/

And he was right... for the rest of the cast. Shinji is late in his development, thanks to his 14 years long "nap" inside EVA-01. And 3.0 corrected that by being his "exclusive" EoE. In it Shinji get the big slap in the face about his conception of the world that was the end of EoE, now he had to make the conclusions from it, but that point aside Final is now really a "true" post EoE story, narratively speaking.
I just hope that the majority of Final won't be about Shinji assimilating the lesson of the end of 3.0, because now there is really space for anything to happens!

[A.T. Fish]

he did knew that something akin to an Impact will happen when the pull out said spears

That's very arguable.

[ElMariachi]

That's very arguable.

When I said something "akin" to an Impact, I was talking before the final battle, not when Asuka and Kaworu were begging him to don't pull them : when explaining to him the Plan, Kaworu told him that once the spears will be pulled, EVA will change the world to a state viable for mankind.
Shinji don't need to be a genius to guess that once he pulls the spears, something extremely powerful will be at work. So when everyone screamed to him "don't touch that!", he should have understand that if he don't listen, the extremely powerful forces will do something really ugly... if he wasn't locked in panic mode and obsessed by being the one who saves the world that's it!

[A.T. Fish]

Yes, it all seems very obvious in retrospect, to the outside viewer that is, it's hard to imagine Shinji would have any clue that pulling the spears would destroy the world just because the guy who told him they would restore the world asked him to stop, I'd also like to remind people that the pulling of the spears alone did not start the impact, it simply freed Mark. 06 from Lilith's body, for the impact to start Rei had to behead Mark. 06 and free the 12th Angel, Shinji couldn't possibly predict that outcome.

[Alpha]

You're absolutely right. The Spears appear to be getting too much attention, but as far as I know, their only role was to seal Mark.06 and Lilith. Once they were removed, the Impact proceeded like the one in 2.0, with the consumption/assimilation of an Angel into the Eva. The Spears dont seem to play any role at all in the Impact itself.

My apologies if this is more suited to another thread. Please, a mod move this if needed.

[Na7e]

Yes, it all seems very obvious in retrospect, to the outside viewer that is

Or, you know Shinji could've have followed Fuyutsuki's advice, and avoided the situation all together.

[Alpha]

Or, you know Shinji could've have followed Fuyutsuki's advice, and avoided the situation all together.

What reason did he had to believe his father's right hand man? None, really. For all he know, Fuyu could have been sent by Gendo- And his dialogue seems to support that he really was.

[A.T. Fish]

Or, you know Shinji could've have followed Fuyutsuki's advice, and avoided the situation all together.

He would have, if it wasn't for Kaworu, but even with Fuyutsuki's advice he couldn't possibly predict what ended up happening.

[TheFriskyIan]

What reason did he had to believe his father's right hand man? None, really. For all he know, Fuyu could have been sent by Gendo- And his dialogue seems to support that he really was.

I don't believe Uncle Fuyu's little slideshow presentation was planned by Gendo. Fuyutsuki seemed rather displeased with Gendo not showing Shinji some truths about the world around him.

[Na7e]

I don't believe Uncle Fuyu's little slideshow presentation was planned by Gendo.

That's genuinely supported by the dialogue between the two.

00:53:23 {Fuyutsuki} Seele's boy has contacted the Third Boy.
00:53:27 {Fuyutsuki} He showed him the conditions outside, it seems.
00:53:30 {Fuyutsuki} Was his reaction as you anticipated?
00:53:33 {Fuyutsuki} Are you okay with all of this, Ikari?
00:53:35 {Gendo} Seele's scenario is being rewritten by us.
00:53:39 {Gendo} All existence is nothing more than a tool to that end.
00:53:42 {Fuyutsuki} You assume that your son wouldn't benefit even from seeing how you live?
00:53:48 {Fuyutsuki} I don't agree with that.

Fuyutsuki seemed rather displeased with Gendo not showing Shinji some truths about the world around him.

I really don't believe Fuyutsuki is much on Gendo's side anymore. Certainly one doesn't try to sway someone over to their side by saying its going to cost pretty much everything including ones very own soul in the process.

[Warren Peace]

"How Gendo lives" doesn't really figure into Fuyutsuki's slideshow, though. Granted, that's a vague statement, but his speech seems to be about Yui. I'm not sure how he explicitly goes against Gendo, and his last line implies it's all part of the plan.

[ElMariachi]

it's hard to imagine Shinji would have any clue that pulling the spears would destroy the world just because the guy who told him they would restore the world asked him to stop

The guy who embarked him into this two spears quest, who keep informing him about what he's seeing in Terminal Dogma(the Seal, FoI, Lilith's cadaver...) and generally seems to know what's happening starts begging him to don't pull these spears because they are of the same type... seems to me to be an excellent reason to listen to the knowledgeable guy and just stop!(ironic to think that had WILLE not intervened, Shinji wouldn't had locked himself in "manic panic mode" and Kaworu would probably have succeeded in reasoning him to stop, did Gendo somehow knew that WILLE would try to interfere?)

Of course, instead of just shooting "Don't do it Shinji-kun", Kaworu could have added "If you pull out these spears that will trigger a Fourth Impact and kill everyone!", but I guess the power of the Idiot Ball is greater than his Space Jesus magic...

Or, you know Shinji could've have followed Fuyutsuki's advice, and avoided the situation all together.

What advice?

[Na7e]

What advice?

00:57:20 {Fuyutsuki} Breaking the world is not difficult.
00:57:24 {Fuyutsuki} But rebuilding it, that isn't so easy.
00:57:28 {Fuyutsuki} The world can be reversed no more than time.
00:57:32 {Fuyutsuki} Nor even the human heart...
00:57:35 {Fuyutsuki} And thus, so that his wish might be granted,
00:57:38 {Fuyutsuki} Ikari is paying every price there is.
00:57:41 {Fuyutsuki} Even his very soul.
00:57:44 {Fuyutsuki} I've imparted to you a little of the truth.

It isn't exactly hard to see that this is tied into the finale. It also conflicts with Kaworu who pretty much gives Shinji an out in the form of two magical spears that will fix the world supposedly.