Do we need to know about the timeskip?

[Stillborn]

Why are you saying they want him on their side?
They don't want him on either side. They want him under lock and key and survailence, away from anything important that he may blow up by touching or even by looking at.
At what his new position will be, Misato was pretty clear at the beginning.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

At what his new position will be, Misato was pretty clear at the beginning.

“You will do nothing.”

Wille didn’t ruin anything. Gendo did. NERV did. I’m surprised that, after all this time during our second run in the Anno-directed Eva franchise, we (myself included, at times) tend to forget that Gendo is behind it all. He ruined things for Earth, he ruined things for Shinji, he ruined things for humanity, and he ruined things for Seele. Gendo ruined everything for everyone, forgetter or for worse (if that makes sense at all), and the test here is to see if the viewers think his action of planetary demolition are pardonable by his motivation of Yui (an understandable motivation, for sure). We’ve seen this before, and we’re clearly seeing it again, just in a whole new way.

[ElMariachi]

Excellent answer, and it also shows that even if Shinji had accepted Misato's pleas to stay in the Wunder, it wouldn't had changed anything : Mark.09 only had to slightly move its arm to grab Shinji and then get out, and once in neo-NERV Kaworu would had convinced him to pilot.
Maybe there would had been less animosity between Shinji and Asuka in Lilith's Chamber, but it's impossible to say if it would had ultimately changed anything.

In fact, it seems that the whole fate of the story was sealed the moment Mark.09's fist punched that hole in the wall.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

In fact, it seems that the whole fate of the story was sealed the moment Mark.09's fist punched that hole in the wall.

Yeah, most complaints against Q would be valid if the one scene was retconned.

[Giji Shinka]

In fact, it seems that the whole fate of the story was sealed the moment Mark.09's fist punched that hole in the wall.

IMO I think that Wille still had a chance to change the fate when Asuka and Mari were fighting against Shinji in Central dogma. (Unfortunately that didn't happen)

[ElMariachi]

IMO I think that Wille still had a chance to change the fate when Asuka and Mari were fighting against Shinji in Central dogma. (Unfortunately that didn't happen)

That could had happened if Asuka and Mari were also willing to talk, unfortunately Asuka wasn't and Mari seemed content to just troll Rei Q, as for Kaworu... well we still don't know why the fuck he was staying lost in thoughts while Shinji was desperately calling for him to give him an hand.

Everyone was holding a Wunder-sized Idiot Ball here, except Rei Q (who didn't had any clue) and Shinji (who was holding an horribly dangerous combination of Idiot and Insanity Ball), the situation was sadly bound to end in disaster.

[Dream]

Huh, this sure is a messy thread.

As for the whole Mark 09 thing, while it's true that they just didn't have time to tell him what was going on it doesn't change the fact Wille made the worst impression possible. Any potential diplomacy and trust went out the window the moment they started pointing the guns and bomb-collar at him. Even setting aside Shinji's personality and how sensitive he is (which i think any sensible commander should have taken into account) it all added up to give an individual in Shinji's position the impression that this environment was overwhelmingly hostile if not downright dangerous for him.

I'm sure they had their reasons, but that is irrelevant. Petty personal feelings shouldn't get in the way of an organization's objectives, but i have to wonder if Shinji would have helped Rei in her extraction attempt had he gotten a less ambigous (which for Shinji means negative) initial impression of Wille.

[ElMariachi]

^
Well again, WILLE didn't know that neo-NERV was actually after Shinji and thus couldn't had imagined that Mark.09 would barge in to snatch him away in a few hours, so they didn't thought that they had to put gloves and get diplomatic to convince him to stay with them.
Also take in account that Shinji returning was a complete surprise for them, they didn't had time to prepare themselves for the rush of emotions of seeing him after 14 years.

I think that Shinji would had hesitated to follow Rei Q had Misato (and the rest of WILLE) gave him a better impression, at this point Misato was the only adult that he trusted after his falling out with his father, so if she told him to not go with "Rei" because it's dangerous, then she must have a good reason. Which wouldn't had changed anything, since Mark.09 would then only had to take Shinji by force, and from here Gendo would had all the time needed to break him and later leave Kaworu convince him to pilot EVA-13.

[Ray]

Last post off topic.

@Ray:
Out of curiosity...what would your ideal Misato and Asuka have done in 3.0?

Ideally?

Best case scenario:

Misato should have kept him sedated until either her or Asuka could take their time to speak with him without letting emotions, bitterness, and military protocol get in the way, in a private area (preferably a settlement or base), being there when he first wakes up. Not on the Wunder in front of a group of people who have every reason to hate his guts, and are expecting her to hate him too.

Lie to him if they must, and keep people he would instantly recognize like Ritsuko or The Bridge Bunnies away from him, don't let him know about the 14 years and his crime of Gaiacide before it's absolutely needed, if the DSS choker is truly necessary tell him its a medical device or something to that effect, NOT a bomb. But tell him the truth about everything else. His father, Rei being a clone of his mother, Wille, Asuka being alive, the destruction of Tokyo 3 etc. but omit everything that would imply a time skip, until its absolutely necessary.

And for heavens sake you cruel woman, give the kid some real clothes!
-
Worst Case Scenario:

If his life truly is over, if he truly is guilty of Genocide and Gaiacide, and is hated by the majority of mankind despite his intent, and it's only a matter of time before a judge and jury convicts him and he's executed or imprisoned with a life sentence, or an overzealous member of Wille or the civilian population shoots him out of spite, or the guilt drives him into an early grave. Then putting him out of his misery beforehand would be the best option.

Not an option I would personally go through with mind you (and I'm glad Misato didn't regardless of her reasons). But you have to ask yourself, when you weigh said options. . .whats worse?

This is of course assuming he truly is guilty for the state of the planet.

-
@WunderBah and Mariachi

Asuka could have told him when she was there, but she chose to punch the glass and call him a brat instead. Sakura could have told him why the collar was "never coming off" instead of clenching her fist and putting on a fake smile. Misato should have told him on the bridge in front of everyone, but she chose to look on him with contempt and all but humiliate him in front of her crew. Even if it had been delivered as an insult it could have maybe convinced him to stay, or at least make him absolutely refuse to pilot again when Rei Q took him to Gendo!

Everyone was just unwilling to give up their bitterness towards him, despite the fact it would have saved everyone the grief. I guess that's one of the messages at the heart of Eva, bad communication kills.

I'm sorry, I'm starting to sound like stillborn. . . I don't want to be that kind of fan. Lets get back on topic.

[Stillborn]

I'm sorry, I'm starting to sound like stillborn. . . I don't want to be that kind of fan. Lets get back on topic.

Don't worry. You're just coming to reasonable conclusions

[Dream]

Asuka could have told him when she was there, but she chose to punch the glass and call him a brat instead. Sakura could have told him why the collar was "never coming off" instead of clenching her fist and putting on a fake smile. Misato should have told him on the bridge in front of everyone, but she chose to look on him with contempt and all but humiliate him in front of her crew. Even if it had been delivered as an insult it could have maybe convinced him to stay, or at least make him absolutely refuse to pilot again when Rei Q took him to Gendo!

Everyone was just unwilling to give up their bitterness towards him, despite the fact it would have saved everyone the grief. I guess that's one of the messages at the heart of Eva, bad communication kills.

Sorry for posting off-topic again, but i just wanted to say that i think you put it better than i could have specially on the bolded part. The fact they didn't know Rei was going to extract him soon doesn't change (what seems to me) the main issue with Wille's modus operandi.

[ElMariachi]

Misato should have kept him sedated until either her or Asuka could take their time to speak with him without letting emotions, bitterness, and military protocol get in the way, in a private area (preferably a settlement or base), being there when he first wakes up. Not on the Wunder in front of a group of people who have every reason to hate his guts, and are expecting her to hate him too.

And Mark.09 would had snatched him even more easily, and Shinji would had been even more easily convinced to pilot EVA-13.

Lie to him if they must, and keep people he would instantly recognize like Ritsuko or The Bridge Bunnies away from him, don't let him know about the 14 years and his crime of Gaiacide before it's absolutely needed, if the DSS choker is truly necessary tell him its a medical device or something to that effect, NOT a bomb. But tell him the truth about everything else. His father, Rei being a clone of his mother, Wille, Asuka being alive, the destruction of Tokyo 3 etc. but omit everything that would imply a time skip, until its absolutely necessary.

1/ And once he asks why the hell did they keep him imprisoned, what would Misato say?

2/ Did she intends to keep him forever imprisoned and in the dark about why so? Wouldn't that be even more cruel than telling him?

Also, Misato is the kind of person who's very frank, someone for whom the truth, even if it hurts, is always better than a comforting lie, she even said something like that in NGE IIRC. For, her, what your scenario would be the ultimate form of cruelness.

And for heavens sake you cruel woman, give the kid some real clothes!

*Sigh* Again, Shinji just got out of quarantine bay, there aren't probably any teenage-sized clothes in the Wunder except Mari and Asuka's plugsuits and uniform, and they weren't even sure that he was really Shinji and not some angelic horror in Lilin form in which case they wouldn't want to give him other clothes yet.

Asuka could have told him when she was there, but she chose to punch the glass and call him a brat instead. Sakura could have told him why the collar was "never coming off" instead of clenching her fist and putting on a fake smile. Misato should have told him on the bridge in front of everyone, but she chose to look on him with contempt and all but humiliate him in front of her crew. Even if it had been delivered as an insult it could have maybe convinced him to stay, or at least make him absolutely refuse to pilot again when Rei Q took him to Gendo!

Everyone was just unwilling to give up their bitterness towards him, despite the fact it would have saved everyone the grief. I guess that's one of the messages at the heart of Eva, bad communication kills.

I agree that part of the theme of Q is that bad communication is harmful (and even lethal in Kaworu's case), but also when he was in the Command Bridge wasn't the moment for explanations, they had a supplying to supervise and just after a Nemesis Series attack to repel. As for Asuka or Sakura not telling him anything, that wasn't their role : do you imagine Sakura telling him right in the middle of the Command Bridge "we're never gonna take that collar off, which is a bomb btw, because you're a war criminal"!
You were talking in your "best case scenario" about Misato taking him to speak in a more private place, and that's exactly what they did, they waited a moment were the fleet was safe and prepared a personalized briefing for him in an isolated room, and delivered by the fleet's two highest-ranking officers no less!
Asuka was just here to vent-off (and to see Shinji again if Mari's teasing to be believed), she wasn't even supposed to be part of the briefing.

I do agree that the semi-public humiliation when she told him that he'll do nothing was uncalled for. But you know what? They got they Karmic retribution for their attitude right when this dude arrived :


I thing that everyone has a lesson to learn from what happened in Q, and I hope that everyone will realize it and act on it in FINAL, or I have the feeling that this time Gendo will win for good.

[Dream]

Mariachi, while it's true that both Wille and members like Asuka had reasons for acting the way they did that isn't really Ray (or mine) point at all.

Regardless this thread has been derailed far enought and generally speaking i'm not interested in discussing aspects of Q.

[KingXanaduu]

^
Well, of course he keep asking about Rei. He risked life and limb to try to save her, and it was the last thing he remembered at that point, thus that would be the ultimate question that came to him. He came to Nerv because of her.

[Ray]

@Mariachi

This will be my last post on this thread for a while. I feel I've exhausted what I've had to say.

1/ And once he asks why the hell did they keep him imprisoned, what would Misato say?

2/ Did she intends to keep him forever imprisoned and in the dark about why so? Wouldn't that be even more cruel than telling him?

Also, Misato is the kind of person who's very frank, someone for whom the truth, even if it hurts, is always better than a comforting lie, she even said something like that in NGE IIRC. For, her, what your scenario would be the ultimate form of cruelness.

1/Lie to him about the possibility of Angelic contamination?

2/ Of course not forever, but they should have at least eased him into the 14 year time skip instead of what they actually did.

Sometimes, at least in the circumstance of a minor being responsible for a crime of this magnitude, letting someone keep an illusion of hope at least for a little bit, is better than just harshly telling them the cruel facts that lead them to despair.

Given the fact he is responsible for ANOTHER impact, can we expect his treatment by Wille and Misato to be any less harsh in Final?

Again. . .I'm being a pessimist.

[WunderBah]

Side-question.

Does the term "idiot ball" translate to bad writing? Or just a X/Y/Z character being a legit idiot?

[Dream]

I'm not certain, but i think it's meant to refer to bad writing in the form of a specific character being an idiot for either his own or general standards.

[ElMariachi]

@ xanderkh : Dream was talking about Ray the forum member!

Sometimes, at least in the circumstance of a minor being responsible for a crime of this magnitude, letting someone keep an illusion of hope at least for a little bit, is better than just harshly telling them the cruel facts that lead them to despair.

But that's not Misato's style, it wasn't already the case before the time skip, and it will even less be the case now.
Misato was always a very frank woman who preferred to be honest to the people she's talking with, even if the truth can be harsh. That's why in .0 when Shinji refused to participate in operation US, instead of telling him a white lie, she showed him exactly why they needed him to fight by bringing him in front of Lilith and explained to him that if an Angel reach her they're all dead, and that yes the fact that "fate" chose him as the pilot was unfair, but sometimes life's unfair and we have to deal with the cards life give us. (of course, actually it's Gendo who engineered the situation so Shinji ends as the pilot of EVA-01, but that's irrelevant here since she didn't know that detail)
And I'm sure that this honesty is the reason Shinji trust her so much, because she tells him how things are instead of staying silent and aloof like his father.

Given the fact he is responsible for ANOTHER impact, can we expect his treatment by Wille and Misato to be any less harsh in Final?

Personally, I think that the shot of Misato whispering Shinji's name during Fourth Impact and her later pensive look once it was all over means that she realized that she goofed hard with her treatment of Shinji and will try to get thing go smoother once he returns. Besides going all preachy and moralistic won't be really useful seeing how utterly broken by guilt Shinji is : no need to be harsher and punish him, he's already punishing himself to the extreme.

Side-question.

Does the term "idiot ball" translate to bad writing? Or just a X/Y/Z character being a legit idiot?

It's when the plot of an episode/scene/entire saga happened because one or more of the characters acted stupidly. It can be a good thing if the reasons for the character acting stupidly are logic (the character is young and immature, drugged, overconfident due to previous successes...) and if later they realized that they were acting stupid and try to correct themselves, a classic case of character development.
But it can also be handled badly when the characters didn't had any logical reason to act (or not act) the way they did other than because it's necessary for the plot to advance. A classical example is in DBZ where there are many cases in which the characters are seen hanging on a ledge after being knocked down despite the fact they can fucking fly.

In the case that interest us, the fight in Lilith's Chamber, well while almost everyone was carrying an Idiot Ball, it was sadly logic and in character : Mari was too busy keeping Rei Q pinned down to help, Asuka's hot-bloodiness and unwillingness to talk is typical of her, and Shinji's stubbornness when in a though situation had precedences (Shamshell and Bardiel) which was aggravated by the past sleepless days and mind-crushing revelations he got. The only illogical reaction was Kaworu's, who for some unexplainable stayed calmly lost in thoughts while Shinji was frantically calling for his help, which drove him to his breaking point in which he wouldn't consider anyone else's opinion, and go for the spears no matter, with the result we know.

[Monk Ed]

Huh, this sure is a messy thread.

I agree. But I think I can fix it.

...Not right now, though.

[AngelNo13Bardiel]

Uh...wow. Yeah, this went about as expected. Just a few comments and I'll be on my way.

And the crazy one : Shinji says "fuck it" and uses EVA-01 to ascend to an higher plane of existence, leaving the Lilin dealing with their shit

Really, it's not that crazy. It might actually be his best option, looking at what potential choices are left/available. I...kinda, in some small way, hoped for it after seeing Q (I didn't envision the ascension thing; just the thought of telling them all to leave him the hell alone and deal with their own mess(es), because he doesn't want to join or be used by either side).

(Sadly, given the context of everything in that movie, the ending we got in Q was perhaps the best outcome from that scenario that we could have ever hoped for.)

Yeah, it takes a few viewings to get that. Sometimes, there isn't much that can be done against a deck that stacked against you (I mean that in respect to most of the characters, not just Shinji).

Miscommunication is a harsh and fatal mistress.

Nothing really to add, I'm just quoting this for being absolute truth.

Wille didn’t ruin anything. Gendo did. NERV did. I’m surprised that, after all this time during our second run in the Anno-directed Eva franchise, we (myself included, at times) tend to forget that Gendo is behind it all. He ruined things for Earth, he ruined things for Shinji, he ruined things for humanity, and he ruined things for Seele. Gendo ruined everything for everyone, forgetter or for worse (if that makes sense at all), and the test here is to see if the viewers think his action of planetary demolition are pardonable by his motivation of Yui (an understandable motivation, for sure). We’ve seen this before, and we’re clearly seeing it again, just in a whole new way.

Gendo: the ultimate "griefer". How accurate.