How aware were Wille of Kaworu? [Split]

[robersora]

[Split from 3.33 Things You Noticed. - Monk]

I don't know where to post this, but has anyone else ever pointed out, that Kaworu was never addressed by WILLE? And if they were aware of his existence, did Asuka and Mari, that Kaworu was in EVA-13 with Shinji at the end of the movie?

[Sachi]

I don't know where to post this, but has anyone else ever pointed out, that Kaworu was never addressed by WILLE? And if they were aware of his existence, did Asuka and Mari, that Kaworu was in EVA-13 with Shinji at the end of the movie?

Mari acknowledges Unit-13's double entry system when realizing Shinji was Seele's backup after Kaworu is killed. Whether or not she, or anybody of Wille, know exactly who is in the plug is unclear.

[ElMariachi]

I think that she acknowledged it as soon as the DSS Choker detected the pattern of a 13th Angel that shouldn't exist, she understood that Gendo's true plan was to use the current wearer of the DSS Choker, who is an Angel(leaving only Kaworu as a possibility), as the trigger for 4I.

And once the DSS Choker confirmed that it detonated, she realized that Shinji was SEELE's back-up since the door of Guf was still opened.

[wiser3754]

I think that she acknowledged it as soon as the DSS Choker detected the pattern of a 13th ANgel that shouldn't exist, she understood that Gendo's true plan was to use the current wearer of the DSS Choker, who is an Angel(leaving only Kaworu as a possibility), as the trigger for 4I.

And once the DSS Choker confirmed that it detonated, she realized that Shinji was SEELE's back-up since the door of Guf was still opened.

Kaworu was cast down to the 13th Angel, that means he lost his rank as the 1st Angel (if you go by hierarchy) but then, who or what took the mantle of 1st Angel? It can't be EVA-13, an Adam, they're not even designated as an Angel. Also, why does EVA-13 release purple like sparks or lights when it's impaled, UNIT-01 never did that.

Just on a side note, I wonder what WILLE's reaction would be when Shinji is debriefed when he tells them that Kaworu was trying to restore the world and had no intention of starting an impact. I'm sure it would send WILLE (and especially Misato) perspective on the Angels into a tail-spin.

[Giji Shinka]

Also, why does EVA-13 release purple like sparks or lights when it's impaled, UNIT-01 never did that.

In-universe: The spears cause it when they impale something, i think.

Out-of-universe: They are there to add dramatic effect to the scene.

[robersora]

Yes, Mari seems to know, that there was someone besides Shinji in there. But Ritsuko's line "we don't know, who to thank for (the cancelling of the impact)" could be interpreted, that they weren't aware of Kaworu as a person, don't you think?

[Veefy]

Yes, Mari seems to know, that there was someone besides Shinji in there. But Ritsuko's line "we don't know, who to thank for (the cancelling of the impact)" could be interpreted, that they weren't aware of Kaworu as a person, don't you think?

Could be.

It would be odd if near third impact happened without Kaworu being visibly on the scene.
I mean Mark 6 has to get in proximity to Lilliths corpse somehow. How does it get there is Kwarou isn't the one controlling it? And do Misato and Ritsuko see that happening up close and see Kwarou presumably levitating nearby?

Kaworu is kinda a dick when it comes to explaining anything in detail. I think that's deliberate storytelling to hide the events of near third impact however. There are a lot of things he doesn't reveal to Shinji (the fact it was him who impaled Unit01 at the end of 2.0 as a big glaring example).

[Shinoyami65]

Well, we know Mark.06 was "autonomous", so possibly it went down there either under the control of the 12th Angel or whatever made it autonomous in the first palce. Kaworu might not have been involved except as a bystander. However, he would ahve ahd to get out of the Mark.06 at some point after the post-credits scene of 2.0, so they should have been aware of his existence, if only as "the pilot of Eva Mark.06 before it became autonomous".

[robersora]

^
Well, yes. But if old-NERV really was imcacerated, they really might never have seen him. I also think it's kinda weird, that nobody addresses him directly (except for omniscient Mari somehow) or interacts with him.

[Kendrix]

I think that she acknowledged it as soon as the DSS Choker detected the pattern of a 13th ANgel that shouldn't exist, she understood that Gendo's true plan was to use the current wearer of the DSS Choker, who is an Angel(leaving only Kaworu as a possibility), as the trigger for 4I.

And once the DSS Choker confirmed that it detonated, she realized that Shinji was SEELE's back-up since the door of Guf was still opened.

In other words, Mari may have had an inkling, but did anyone else?

Asuka keeps talking at EVA 13 like Shinji's the only one in there.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

The DSS Choker was created specifically for Kaworu though, and WILLE are in possession of it. There's also the outstanding issue of who was piloting Mark.06 at the end of 2.0, something ex-Nerv personnel would make it their business to know.

Everyone at Wille seems unsurprised by Eva-13's dual entry system. Mari obviously knows about it, and is even aware of its emergency eject levers. Wille are also seen monitoring the Eva as it opens the barrier and would seem to be aware of its internal system to some extent. The fact that it's been sent down to remove both spears, and that Kaworu explicitly says that two souls are required for this again points to Wille having cause to suspect the dual entry system.

Something that really isn't explained is how Mari (and later Asuka) seem to know that Shinji and not Kaworu has actually survived. Mari twigs this immediately somehow, and Asuka goes looking for Shinji's entry plug later on(presumably expecting to see him in it ... presumably). Misato is certainly under the impression that Shinji is still wearing the choker and is never told otherwise.

How Mari actually knows he is still alive is a mystery -- unless we assume she knows a little about Kaworu and Eva-13 as well. Perhaps she knew that only Kaworu's death would cause Eva-13 to fall, or some other indicator.

[Zoop]

When Shinji talks to Asuka he always refers to we and us (well, at least if my subs are translated correctly), thus letting her know he's not alone (and she doesn't question it, although she has other things on her mind).

At least Mari knew that Shinji was not longer wearing the choker (unless she thinks that Shinji has gone Angel).If it can tell Mari that the 13th angel is wearing the choker, it would make sense it would tell her when it went of. It would also make sense that Mari isn't the only one seeing this information (wouldn't Misato's detonator show this as wel?), however these shots are purely focused on Mari, so, is she really the only one seeing this? Mari seems to know a lot more than Wille does.

[wiser3754]

Has everyone forgotten that humanity are also Angels, as explained to Shinji by Misato during the Lilith reveal. So shouldn't humanity be designated as the 13th angel, not Kaworu?

[Zoop]

I think you are on to something. According to Mari something terrible should happen when the 12th angel is defeated. Maybe an angel is appointed at the moment the previous one is defeated (edit: obviously tunniel debunks this, sachiel appeared while tunniel is alive, so only the last angel is relevant). When 12 are cleared, mankind would be appointed as the 13th, and instrumentality can begin. Gendo obviously pulled some trick, so maybe he managed to swap the 13th spot (meant for mankind) with Kaworu, thus making him the 13th angel. Since he is also the first angel, the beginning and the end are the same (he also says this himself).

Does this mean the angel counter is reset? We get another 12 angels? Seems unlikely, but fun to fanwank about.

I really like the idea that during these scenes in 3.33 mankind was supposed to be appointed as the 13th angel, thus gaining the fruit of life : Instrumentality

[fleeting]

Maybe the loudspeaker was on while Kaworu and Shinji were conversing and Mari and Asuka heard?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

When Shinji talks to Asuka he always refers to we and us (well, at least if my subs are translated correctly), thus letting her know he's not alone (and she doesn't question it, although she has other things on her mind).

We'd need a more specific examination of the original Japanese script before coming to any conclusion on this. I guess from experience that Shinji's grammar will inevitably be ambiguous.

At least Mari knew that Shinji was not longer wearing the choker (unless she thinks that Shinji has gone Angel). If it can tell Mari that the 13th angel is wearing the choker, it would make sense it would tell her when it went of. It would also make sense that Mari isn't the only one seeing this information (wouldn't Misato's detonator show this as wel?), however these shots are purely focused on Mari, so, is she really the only one seeing this?

Two points should be made here. Firstly, Mari does not know that Shinji is not wearing the choker. All she knows is that the Choker is reporting a possible 13th Angel manifestation. Given that this is something that shouldn't be happening, it shouldn't be automatically assumed that Shinji can't be this entity.

Secondly, Mari is only shown receiving as message from the choker as a "Tactical Mission Notification". This pop up on several occasions in the film, but only for some sudden change in situation that the pilot "needs to know". Whether the DSS Choker detonating is such an event is debatable.

Again, there's the lingering question of whether the Eva pilots are actually in communication with the Wunder or not. Misato gives no on-screen orders to either pilot, even after their communications are established. Is the "L-particle" density affecting communications? It clearly doesn't affect the DSS Choker though. So, would Mari be informed by the Wunder that Misato had detonated the choker? But then, has Mari informed Misato that Shinji wasn't wearing it? Does Mari really have additional information that the rest of Wille doesn't?

Come to think of it, is there a single Wille logo or emblem on either Eva-02, Eva-08, or on anything Asuka or Mari wear? Are they even a part of Wille, or have they been assigned, or transferred from some other organisation?

[Zoop]

Now for Kaworu, normally Shinji isn't an Angel, and suddenly he DSS Choker says that an Angel is wearing it, the logical thing would be that Shinji isn't the one wearing it anymore.

That's what I thought, it's how Mari deduces that Shinji is Seele's backup (when eva13 doesn't shut down after the choker goes off)

[Black Swordsman]

On the subject of wether or not WILLE knew about Kaworu or not, they seemed to know exactly when Eva-13 was activated (unless they just have some kind of sensor that tells them that) this would lead me to assume that they keep an eye on the NERV facilities, and they weren't exactly hidden. Kaworu was out in the open playing his piano most of the time so it's possible that spies or people sent to keep an eye out had seen him before.
Also, in the preview for 3.0 at the end of 2.0/2.22, we see Kaworu standing in front of 4 shadows. I don't know who they would be though, but it might have something to do with it. Also Mari had a meeting with a blanked out name, anyone know anything about that? She could have been told about Kaworu's existence from that. I don't really know though

[Zoop]

On the subject of wether or not WILLE knew about Kaworu or not, they seemed to know exactly when Eva-13 was activated (unless they just have some kind of sensor that tells them that)

It appeared to me it was just that. I don't believe they were monitoring Eva 13 specifically.

The screen that appears just after Shinji and Koworu announce the activation of Eva 13 says:

Caution
New EVA-Unit
- Activation Signal Confirmed -
Caution

The bridge bunnies say the same: New signal detected. Activation of a new EVA confirmed!

So I do think EVA 13 has long been a secret. Kaworu, however, does not exactly try to hide.

[ElMariachi]

They detected EVA-13's activation because Kaworu was wearing the DSS Choker, and one of its functions is called "Synchronization surveillance function", it's no more complicated than that.