Cola-09 wrote:Quick summary of the above posts:
- Morphing spears works either by sheer will and the wielders state of mind is essential for the outcome, or by some more complex angelic rules
- Kaworu might or might not have known how to morph the spears, but his inability to do so is likely tied to Gendo taking his place and downcasting him

I would add the Spears being in an altered state (apparently by Gendo) in 3.0 should be essential to turn these Spears into Longinus. After all, Gendo needing to take this measure means he doesn't expect the two Spears to turn into Longinus only by Eva-13/Shinji and Kaworu touching these.

Also, Kaworu expected to find the Spear of Longinus and the Spear of Cassius, which he needed for his plan to repair the World. So, he doesn't think Shinji or himself touching these Spears will change these Spears either.

DantesInferno wrote:
Nit: I think Ritsuko refers to the ships as being built specifically as Guardians of Guf, not the original four Adams.

I think you are forgetting the part of the movie where Mari gets rid of all the 3 ships and her last words to them are something in the line of "farewell Adams, you won't be needed anymore". Thus making the connection between the Adams and the ships pretty obvious for us the viewers.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:I think you are forgetting the part of the movie where Mari gets rid of all the 3 ships and her last words to them are something in the line of "farewell Adams, you won't be needed anymore". Thus making the connection between the Adams and the ships pretty obvious for us the viewers.

No, I did not. The ships "are" the Adams in a sense (most likley they were built from the Adams' remains, or something along those lines).

But Misato's and Ritsuko's dialogue makes it clear that:

1. The original 4 Adams (and/or their wings of light) were the triggers of 2nd Impact, but
2. The "rebuilt" Adams (i.e., the ships) can not be used the same way, because "they were built as Gradians of Guf" (however that works).

Clearly, something happened along the way and the ships cannot function as impact triggers the same way the original 4 Adams did with 2I.

My take is that there are 5 Adams [1], of which the fifth 'survived' and becomes EVA 13. The other four are somewhat subordinate and were repurposed into the Adams vessels (consisting solely of the Adams' core and therefore consuming the pilot over time) as well as the four ships (probably made from the bodies).

There's another thread, however, that deals more precisely with this question.

[1] https://preview.redd.it/kjecqifk8hh71.p ... 63dfeb8ec0

Cola-09 wrote:

Konja7#941173 wrote:...

That said, I'm not totally sure Kaworu's plan to repair the World needs the Instrumentality. In 3.0+1.0, Shinji repairs the World using Eva-01 and the Spear of Gaius, but I'm not clear whether these two elements are all he needed or he also needed the Instrumentality power that Gendo started.

I guess the later is the most likely option. Shinji defeats Gendo for control over the Instrumentality, then he used the Spear of Gaius to redirect the Instrumentality power towards the repair of the World.

I would assume EVA imaginary / GNR / Lilith is the catalyst like in EoE and the spears are needed as the sacrifice. My interpretation is that Shinji "overrides" Gendo as the center by providing another spear.

This isn't directly relevant to impact triggers, but I think the fact that Kaworu has control of Thrice's Instrumentality in between Gendo and Shinji is under-discussed. Shinji doesn't really defeat or override Gendo. Rather, Gendo has an epiphany and relinquishes control, Kaworu picks up the reins for Asuka and his own Instrumentality, and then Kaji suggests Kaworu let Shinji drive for Rei and then finally himself.

nerv bae wrote:This isn't directly relevant to impact triggers, but I think the fact that Kaworu has control of Thrice's Instrumentality in between Gendo and Shinji is under-discussed. Shinji doesn't really defeat or override Gendo. Rather, Gendo has an epiphany and relinquishes control, Kaworu picks up the reins for Asuka and his own Instrumentality, and then Kaji suggests Kaworu let Shinji drive for Rei and then finally himself.

Interesting take, I've always assumed Kaworu as first Angel/God merely guides the instrumentality and passes the reigns to Shinji when Gendo steps down.

nerv bae wrote:This isn't directly relevant to impact triggers, but I think the fact that Kaworu has control of Thrice's Instrumentality in between Gendo and Shinji is under-discussed. Shinji doesn't really defeat or override Gendo. Rather, Gendo has an epiphany and relinquishes control, Kaworu picks up the reins for Asuka and his own Instrumentality, and then Kaji suggests Kaworu let Shinji drive for Rei and then finally himself.

Yeah. Kaworu takes the reigns of Instrumentality when Gendo relinquishes.

This information is often lost because the first thing Kaworu does is asking Shinji what he wants. Kaworu could have the reigns for Asuka and his own Instrumentality, but he was only following Shinji's wishes.

Another possibility is that Kaworu relinquishes the power just after Shinji answered that his wish was to help others, while Kaji's words in the Instrumentality are only a reassurance.

Cola-09 wrote:Interesting take, I've always assumed Kaworu as first Angel/God merely guides the instrumentality and passes the reigns to Shinji when Gendo steps down.

That's a good possibility too.

After Gendo relinquishes the power, I think Kaworu could take control of the Instrumentality and sacrifice himself to repair the World, but he accepts Shinji's decision to bear that responsibility (even although Shinji will likely need to sacrifice himself).


PS: In the Instrumentality, I suspect Rei wanted to stay inside Eva-01 to sacrifice herself instead of Shinji, but she also accepted Shinji's decision.

I've been thinking the events that the Near Third Impact cover:

Shinji in Eva-01 started the Third Impact in 2.0, which was stopped by Kaworu. This point is where the Failures of Infinity creation likely started, since these are copies of Eva-01.

Some months later, the Third Impact was restarted (we don't know how the power went from Eva-01 to Lilith/Mark-06). It was stopped by Kaji's sacrifice, but the Failures of Infinity creation was completed.

The Failures of Infinity corified the Earth as we see in -48h.


The Near Third Impact cover events separated by months, because it was the same Third Impact stopped (twice). The Failures of Infinity are consequence of the event called Near Third Impact.

This would also imply Asuka wasn't in a coma for very long, a handful of months at best. It's no wonder she calls Mari a rookie. It'd also mean Wille was founded not too long after N3I at all.

I though FOIs are the consequence of a failed physical instrumentality attempt (which requires spears) and them being headless has something to do with the decapitation of Lilith in that process? I'd argue they are a consequence of the actual third impact.

Cola-09 wrote:I though FOIs are the consequence of a failed physical instrumentality attempt (which requires spears) and them being headless has something to do with the decapitation of Lilith in that process? I'd argue they are a consequence of the actual third impact.

The "Actual Third Impact" doesn't seem to have used the Spears during its ritual. The Spear of Longinus and the Spear Cassius still existed in 3.0 (and the creation of new Spears is a new thing for 3.0+1.0).

It's pretty possible the Third Impact was stopped by "Kaji's sacrifice" before SEELE could use the Spears for the Instrumentality. After all, it wasn't exactly the Third Impact what "purified" the land (we could see the FOI realized this "purification" in -48h).


In 2.0, Ritsuko mentioned the creation of a new race to replace humanity during the Third Impact. This makes me think the creation of FOI started at that point (but were completed when the Third Impact restarted months later). That would explain why FOI are copies of Eva-01.



PS: Lilith being headless seem to be related to Mark-06 fusing with her body.

Konja7 wrote:PS: Lilith being headless seem to be related to Mark-06 fusing with her body.

I'm pretty sure there was a cut where they showed Mark 6 holding Lilith's decapitated head?

Unrelated to the above, today I rewatched episode 22 and stumbled over the scene where Unit 00 descends into Terminal Dogma passing "the Malebolge".
To me this looks like a certain black object that we later get to see in the rebuilds... The resemblance, the shape... :-D

Cola-09 wrote:I'm pretty sure there was a cut where they showed Mark 6 holding Lilith's decapitated head?

Yeah. Mark-06 holds Lilth head.

The thing is Mark-06 was "fused" with Lilith in the place where Lilith's head was. That's why I said Lilith being beheaded was related to her "fusion" with Mark-06.

Oh I didn't realize this.. good catch!

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:I think you are forgetting the part of the movie where Mari gets rid of all the 3 ships and her last words to them are something in the line of "farewell Adams, you won't be needed anymore". Thus making the connection between the Adams and the ships pretty obvious for us the viewers.

No, I'm not forgetting, and yes, the ships are the Adams.

The point I'm making is that even though the original 4 Adams that were present at 2I could br and actually were triggers, somehow the retrofitting of their remains into the ships involves some factor or process that prevents them from acting as impact triggers anymore (and repurposes them as "Guardians of Guf", wjhatever that means in detail).

This is what I get from Risuko and Misato's conversation.

It was always weird that the Third Impact seems to be the only Impact to not use Holy Spears. However, I suspect this is because the Third Impact was stopped before it could be completed.

In Rebuild, there hasn't really been an "Actual Third Impact" (a term created by fans). The event involving Mark-06/Lilith seems to be called the Near Third Impact by Lilins because the Third Impact was stopped (for the second time).

Kaworu and Gendo mentioned the Third Impact brought the red land. However, in -48h, we discover this means the creation of Failurrs of Infinity, who corified the land.



Another thing, regarding SEELE's goal, I think things were going in this way:

SEELE planned to complete their Instrumentality with the Third Impact (and who knows how Gendo planned to twist this to his own goal), but it was stopped. Still, the Failures of Infinity continue part of the job by absorbing the humans and turning the land red. So, SEELE only needed the Fourth Impact to "purify" the souls and complete their goal