Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

[Konja7]

But in 3.0 ("Near Fourth Impact"), the Gates of Guf open above NERV HQ even without using up any spears; if Kaworu had been in control of Eva-13, and he had the spears he needed (instead of two Longinus), I don't see what could have prevented him from getting to the Golgotha object (which can even be seen peeking beyond the gates). It is of course possible Anno hadn't even conceived the Eva imaginary at this point.

I assumed it wouldn't be possible to enter in the Gates of Guf if the "purification" of souls (which needs the sacrifice of the Spears) isn't started. However, this may be a wrong assumption.

Gendo started the "purification" of souls, before he entered through the Gates of Guf. However, this could be because the "purification" of souls is totally necessary for Gendo's plan of a collective conscience.

So, my assumption that entering the Gates of Guf needs the "purification" of souls first could be wrong.

That is, in 3.0 Eva-13 awakens by consuming the 12th angel and that alone seems to be enough to open the Gates of Guf and reveal the Golgotha object. But in 3.0+1.0. consuming the 9th angel only (re-)awakens the Eva, and the "Gates of Hell" only turn into the "Gates of Guf" after they're pierced by the Moon spears...

I think this difference is because the events in 3.0+1.0 happened faster. In 3.0+1.0, Eva-13 awakening and the Black Moon Spear being absorbed by the Gates of Guf (which started the "purification" of souls) happened quite fast and close.

Instead, 3.0, Eva-13 awakens and the Gates of Guf are opened, but the "purification" of souls didn't start. The Gates of Guf likely need to absorb the Spears of Longinus to start this "purification", since Eva-13 was rising with the Spears towards the Gates.

[Konja7]

I just wanted to point out the curious similarity of needing one spear of each type in both cases. Gendo in 3.0+1.0 doesn't mention it explicitly, so it's possible his plan would have worked even with two Longinus spears (i.e., he wasn't counting on Shinji to change on into Cassius); but he does say something like "they each(other) serve as trigger and sacrifice", so it makes sense that one of each type would be needed...?

Honestly, I think Gendo's plan could have worked with two Speat of Longinus.

I just doubt Gendo could have predicted Shinji would be able to turn the Spear of Longinus into the Spear of Cassius. I know Gendo has shown incredible predictive skills, but this would be too far.

There were so many variables that led to Shinji being able to face Gendo, I doubt he could have predicted all of them. An example: Gendo was a little surprised that Rei allowed Shinji to pilot Eva-01 again.

[Cola-09]

But in 3.0 ("Near Fourth Impact"), the Gates of Guf open above NERV HQ even without using up any spears; if Kaworu had been in control of Eva-13, and he had the spears he needed (instead of two Longinus), I don't see what could have prevented him from getting to the Golgotha object (which can even be seen peeking beyond the gates).

My understanding is that the gates of Guf open on impact (e.g. when an EVA or Adams awakens), spears are no precondition for the gates to open, it simply happens as a result of the awakening.

Indeed, that was Kaworus plan, to get two opposing spears and use them to make him or Shinji the center of the instrumentality. However he realized that the combination of spears was off when they entered Central Dogma.

My personal (wild) theory:
Only the first Angel and people written into the book of life may change the configuration of the spears. Gendo consuming Nebby made himself the first angel, demoting Kaworu. This is the reason why at that point Kaworu wasn't able to change the spears to his liking in 3.0. He realizes this at the moment Gendo consumes the contents of the suitcase and suggests he now understands what Gendos plan was all along.

[Blockio]

I've always considered the spears to change based on the intent/motivation of the wielder; those stuck in the past, trying to only revert something are stuck with Longinus, because despair is all that drives them, while those wanting to move forwards and build grounds for new things get to have Cassius, since that's thematically relevant to Shinji's journey and does track with the rest of the people we see having spears, but your idea does bear thinking about

[Konja7]

Indeed, that was Kaworus plan, to get two opposing spears and use them to make him or Shinji the center of the instrumentality. However he realized that the combination of spears was off when they entered Central Dogma.

I think Kaworu planned to be the center, since he will likely die to repair the World (as Shinji almost does in 3.0+1.0)

That said, I'm not totally sure Kaworu's plan to repair the World needs the Instrumentality. In 3.0+1.0, Shinji repairs the World using Eva-01 and the Spear of Gaius, but I'm not clear whether these two elements are all he needed or he also needed the Instrumentality power that Gendo started.

I guess the later is the most likely option. Shinji defeats Gendo for control over the Instrumentality, then he used the Spear of Gaius to redirect the Instrumentality power towards the repair of the World.

[Cola-09]

I've always considered the spears to change based on the intent/motivation of the wielder; those stuck in the past, trying to only revert something are stuck with Longinus, because despair is all that drives them, while those wanting to move forwards and build grounds for new things get to have Cassius, since that's thematically relevant to Shinji's journey and does track with the rest of the people we see having spears, but your idea does bear thinking about

Interesting take! However, how does it explain why Kaworu was wielding Cassius in the end of 2.0 but wasn't able to change them in 3.0 when needed?

I think Kaworu planned to be the center, since he will likely die to repair the World (as Shinji almost does in 3.0+1.0)

That said, I'm not totally sure Kaworu's plan to repair the World needs the Instrumentality. In 3.0+1.0, Shinji repairs the World using Eva-01 and the Spear of Gaius, but I'm not clear whether these two elements are all he needed or he also needed the Instrumentality power that Gendo started.

I guess the later is the most likely option. Shinji defeats Gendo for control over the Instrumentality, then he used the Spear of Gaius to redirect the Instrumentality power towards the repair of the World.

I would assume EVA imaginary / GNR / Lilith is the catalyst like in EoE and the spears are needed as the sacrifice. My interpretation is that Shinji "overrides" Gendo as the center by providing another spear.

[Blockio]

Interesting take! However, how does it explain why Kaworu was wielding Cassius in the end of 2.0 but wasn't able to change them in 3.0 when needed?

By Ha, Kaworu was very much optimistic that he can make a change for the better; by Q, that no longer was the case. If memory serves me, that difference in spears aligning with the change in outlook was one of the things that brought the idea to mind in the first place when I mulled it over with some friends first

[Konja7]

Interesting take! However, how does it explain why Kaworu was wielding Cassius in the end of 2.0 but wasn't able to change them in 3.0 when needed?

I don't think the Spears have always been so easily changeable. After all, Kaworu's plan consisted on Eva-13 using the Spear of Longinus and the Spear of Cassius (he was also pretty surprised about the change in the Spears).

It's important to remember that the Spears in 3.0 were already altered to turn into Spears of Longinus (both Spears have the handle of Longinus). This alteration could be the reason why the Spears turn so susceptible to change.

Also, although the Spears were altered to turn into Longinus, Shinji being in the correct emotional state could turn a Spear of Longinus into the Spear of Cassius (as he does in 3.0+1.0). This would have ruined Gendo's plan in 3.0.

By Ha, Kaworu was very much optimistic that he can make a change for the better; by Q, that no longer was the case. If memory serves me, that difference in spears aligning with the change in outlook was one of the things that brought the idea to mind in the first place when I mulled it over with some friends first

Kaworu has been emotionally affected by events after 2.0 like Kaji's death, but he still mantains hope that Shinji could be happy and Lilins could be saved. Kaworu lacks hope for himself in 3.0, but that's the case since 1.0.

Thinking about it, the opposite emotions in Kaworu might cause the Spears not to change their current state.

[Cola-09]

I've always considered the spears to change based on the intent/motivation of the wielder; those stuck in the past, trying to only revert something are stuck with Longinus, because despair is all that drives them, while those wanting to move forwards and build grounds for new things get to have Cassius, since that's thematically relevant to Shinji's journey and does track with the rest of the people we see having spears, but your idea does bear thinking about

I've given this some more thought and rewatched the scene. The final act is quite chaotic but there's definitely a chronology. When Kaworu's control system gets disabled EVA 13's eyes turn from golden to red, possibly indicating a state of imbalance or "despair".

This could nicely fit with your interpretation, especially as a few scenes before Fuyutsuki (deliberately?) offloads a lot of shocking insight onto Shinji making him almost delirious. Kaworu does comfort him right before the final operation but his overall state seems rather frustrated and filled with self-doubt. So it's quite possible that Shinji unconsciously transformed the spears into Longinus lances, given his mental state.

One thing is still puzzling me. Kaworu seems rather optimistic in all those scenes, from the point on where he tells Shinji they can rewrite the world, over to them descending and breaking Liliths seal etc. In the final scenes, however, he solely tries to stop Shinji from getting the spears, even BEFORE his control system gets shut down. I interpret this as him being either unable to change their form at this point, OR as you suggest him being filled with uncertainty as well.

Kaworu's attempts to stop Shinji start right after he "figures out" what Gendo is scheming. That's why I assumed the demotion had something to do with his unability to control the spears. Gendo possibly becoming the first angel could as well give him the power to revert the spears to neutral-mode, essentially prepping everything for exactly this outcome.

[Konja7]

This could nicely fit with your interpretation, especially as a few scenes before Fuyutsuki (deliberately?) offloads a lot of shocking insight onto Shinji making him almost delirious. Kaworu does comfort him right before the final operation but his overall state seems rather frustrated and filled with self-doubt. So it's quite possible that Shinji unconsciously transformed the spears into Longinus lances, given his mental state.

As I said, the Spears were already altered to turn into Spears of Longinus (both have the handle from Longinus). So, I don't think Shinji's emotional state really affected the Spears transformation at that point.

That said, Shinji's poor emotional state would prevent him from turning the Spear of Longinus into the Spear of Cassius.

One thing is still puzzling me. Kaworu seems rather optimistic in all those scenes, from the point on where he tells Shinji they can rewrite the world, over to them descending and breaking Liliths seal etc. In the final scenes, however, he solely tries to stop Shinji from getting the spears, even BEFORE his control system gets shut down. I interpret this as him being either unable to change their form at this point, OR as you suggest him being filled with uncertainty as well.

I suspect Kaworu was unaware that the Spears has the ability to change forms. He was pretty surprised about the Spears being altered to look the same. At least, he doesn't seem to know they could turn the Spear of Longinus into Spear of Cassius.

It's pretty possible the Spears's ability to change is a new ability after they were altered to turn into Longinus.


PS: Kaworu doesn't say they would rewrite the World, he just said they would repair the World.

[DantesInferno]

Interesting take! However, how does it explain why Kaworu was wielding Cassius in the end of 2.0 but wasn't able to change them in 3.0 when needed?

One possibility is that he simply didn't have physical contact with the spears because he had been cut off from the Eva-13 controls (no idea how he regains access later in order to impale Eva-13 before the DSS choker explodes though...).

Very good points by everyone, by the way. Food for thought...

[Cola-09]

As I said, the Spears were already altered to turn into Spears of Longinus (both have the handle from Longinus). So, I don't think Shinji's emotional state really affected the Spears transformation at that point.

Interesting, is that confirmed? I always thought there was a neutral mode, essentially them being blank spears. It's true that Cassius has a different handle, but Longinus also has a specific tip, so it's just the handle they share.

I suspect Kaworu was unaware that the Spears has the ability to change forms. He was pretty surprised about the Spears being altered to look the same. At least, he doesn't seem to know they could turn the Spear of Longinus into Spear of Cassius.

Good point, I haven't considered that Kaworu might be completely unaware that they can be transformed.

One possibility is that he simply didn't have physical contact with the spears because he had been cut off from the Eva-13 controls (no idea how he regains access later in order to impale Eva-13 before the DSS choker explodes though...).

I know, but there are like zero attempts from Kaworu getting hold of the spears, even way before his control system gets shut down. He merely tries to talk Shinji out of it. It seems he is either unaware of the fact that they can be transformed, or he knows he's uncapable of doing it.

Your second question is very good. I think there are several possible explanations, like EVA 13 becoming a true awakened Adams (which may be Kaworus real body he now can fully control), or simply because Kaworu becomes the trigger in the process and thus regains control of EVA 13.

What I'm also still missing: why exactly is Kaworu considering himself the trigger?

[AsukaShikinami10]

@Cola-09 Kaworu is the first angel, and Adams seem to be a different type of beings blessed with the fruit of life as angels but with a different role. As they said in 3.0+1.0 they are the guardians of Guf, so none of them can be accounted as the first angel.

As for Kaworu being or not being able to change the spears, it is possible that he didn't know about the morphing capabilities of the spears, and Gendo was counting on this lack of information for his plan to be set in motion.

So when Kaworu finally took control over the awakened Eva 13 he too was in a state of despair (As seen on his face while telling Shinji about Fourth Impact). Maybe that's why none of the spears changed into a Cassius type after he regained control of the unit.

[Konja7]

Interesting, is that confirmed? I always thought there was a neutral mode, essentially them being blank spears. It's true that Cassius has a different handle, but Longinus also has a specific tip, so it's just the handle they share.

Confirmed? As many things in Eva franchise, we can only extrapolate conclusions from the visual.

It's true the tip of both Spears aren't Longinus at that moment, but I doubt these are in a really neutral mode if the handle of both is Longinus. Not to mention that Gendo needs both Spears to turn into Longinus.

That said, it's always possible the neutral handle is similar to the Longinus handle. It just seems unlikely.

What I'm also still missing: why is Kaworu considering himself the trigger?

I guess Kaworu becoming the 13th Angel is essential for the awakening of Eva-13 and starting the Fourth Impact (he should have this role for the Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0 too). Of course, Eva-13 still needs to eat an Angel to awaken, but the 13th Angel being inside Eva-13 is necessary too.

Kaworu never expected to turned into the 13th Angel, that's likely why he was so confused about Gendo's plan with the Spears.


PS: The other character called a trigger is Shinji who is mentioned to be the trigger for the Third Impact.

[Cola-09]

It's true the tip of both Spears aren't Longinus at that moment, but I doubt these are in a really neutral mode if the handle of both is Longinus. Not to mention that Gendo needs both Spears to turn into Longinus.

That said, it's always possible the neutral handle is similar to the Longinus handle. It just seems unlikely.

Fair enough!

So when Kaworu finally took control over the awakened Eva 13 he too was in a state of despair (As seen on his face while telling Shinji about Fourth Impact). Maybe that's why none of the spears changed into a Cassius type after he regained control of the unit.

Good point.

I guess Kaworu becoming the 13th Angel is essential for the awakening of Eva-13 and starting the Fourth Impact (he should have this role for the Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0 too). Of course, Eva-13 still needs to eat an Angel to awaken, but the 13th Angel being inside Eva-13 is necessary too.

I agree, the question is as always how and why.

One possible explanation was laid out here: https://grrlware.tumblr.com/post/645777 ... gel-theory

The theory suggests that because EVA 13 is a surviving Adams, consuming the 12 Angel would lead to it becoming a fully recovered Adams, albeit not yet triggering an impact. Due to Gendos schemes Kaworu's demotion sort of turns his dormant angel status to him being a legitime new Angel (DSS choker response) and this contact eventually makes him the trigger.

I'm not entirely sold on this theory but it's definitely interesting.

[DantesInferno]

@Cola-09 Kaworu is the first angel, and Adams seem to be a different type of beings blessed with the fruit of life as angels but with a different role. As they said in 3.0+1.0 they are the guardians of Guf, so none of them can be accounted as the first angel

Nit: I think Ritsuko refers to the ships as being built specifically as Guardians of Guf, not the original four Adams.

This is because Ritsuko says that line in response to Misato's:

Wings of light? Are you telling me they'll cause the 4th impact the same way as the 2nd?

(translaton mine), which implies that 2nd impact was indeed triggered by the 4 Adams.

[Blockio]

The ships are definitely related to the Adams in some key fashion, no two ways about that.
Which.... unfortunately creates a lot more questions than it answers

[DantesInferno]

As for Kaworu being or not being able to change the spears, it is possible that he didn't know about the morphing capabilities of the spears, and Gendo was counting on this lack of information for his plan to be set in motion.

I think Kaworu knows way too much about how the Eva universe works to not have known this.

Instead, I think he's surprised that anyone could have changed the spears behind his back, during the timeskip, even past Lilith's seal.

I think maybe he didn't know Gendo had the Key and was thus able to do so (if that is indeed what changed the spears). This sort of explains both he's initial surprise and later realisation / admission of defeat towards Gendo.

[Konja7]

I think Kaworu knows way too much about how the Eva universe works to not have known this.

To be fair, Kaworu never imagined to be turned into the 13th Angel. So, I think there are certain things unknonw for him, especially if these are related to Gendo's manipulations.

Instead, I think he's surprised that anyone could have changed the spears behind his back, during the timeskip, even past Lilith's seal.

This is another possible reason why Kaworu was so surprised.

However, even if Kaworu knows about the morphin capabilities of the Spears, he still doesn't seem to know (or believe) they could change the Spears into Cassius.

Kaworu's reaction when he see that the Spears have changed is that they shouldn't reach these.

[Cola-09]

As for Kaworu being or not being able to change the spears, it is possible that he didn't know about the morphing capabilities of the spears, and Gendo was counting on this lack of information for his plan to be set in motion.

I think Kaworu knows way too much about how the Eva universe works to not have known this.

Instead, I think he's surprised that anyone could have changed the spears behind his back, during the timeskip, even past Lilith's seal.

I think maybe he didn't know Gendo had the Key and was thus able to do so (if that is indeed what changed the spears). This sort of explains both he's initial surprise and later realisation / admission of defeat towards Gendo.

That was exactly my interpretation as well. I've always assumed the only thing he might've missed is the existence of the Key and/or Gendo consuming it.

Quick summary of the above posts:
- Morphing spears works either by sheer will and the wielders state of mind is essential for the outcome, or by some more complex angelic rules
- Kaworu might or might not have known how to morph the spears, but his inability to do so is likely tied to Gendo taking his place and downcasting him