Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:30 pm

Of course it's not coming out of a vacuum, it's a climactic, spur-of-the-moment culmination of desperation stemming from both her present situation and her inability to reach Shinji, that ironically (tragically) undermines everything she had built up prior to that point in terms of being a mother figure to him.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:30 am

So it's episode 23 that exists in a vacuum, then? Lots of weird compartmentalizing here.

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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby zlink64 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:06 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:In EoE it's clear that Misato is simply using sex to try to manipulate Shinji into action. Whether she thinks she, or he for that matter, would enjoy it is rather irrelevant given that she knows she'll die first anyway.



If you are talking about the kiss scene I think you are wrong. Shinji promises her that he will pilot before the kiss. She didn't have to use sex to manipulate him at that point. She only did it that after the fact not before. That motive you describe doesn't fit. No manipulation was required. Imo she just wanted to do it.

Also it does "come out of a vacum" on your view point Gatsuo. That's the main reason I didn't accept it earlier. You haven't explained why that isn't the case other than "just cause".
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:19 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:So it's episode 23 that exists in a vacuum, then? Lots of weird compartmentalizing here.

Perhaps episode 23 exists in something other than the specific narrative you've formed in your reading of her character
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby zlink64 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:22 am

You mean like by placing the episode in a vacum and then making a narrative like this one:
View Original Postgatotsu911 wrote:Of course it's not coming out of a vacuum, it's a climactic, spur-of-the-moment culmination of desperation stemming from both her present situation and her inability to reach Shinji, that ironically (tragically) undermines everything she had built up prior to that point in terms of being a mother figure to him.


It's cool if this what you want to believe this but you should acknowledge the problems that come with that viewpoint. Problem being that you can't connect it well to the rest(vacumizing it) and that it makes things more complicated for actual no reason.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Sachi » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:04 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:If you are talking about the kiss scene I think you are wrong. Shinji promises her that he will pilot before the kiss.

Shinji doesn't promise anything. In fact, he says almost nothing at all during this scene, other than depreciating himself.

SPOILER: Show
(Misato and Shinji in passageway)

Misato (slumped against wall - labored breathing):
Th... That should hold them off... for a while.
I'm okay... It's not as serious... as it looks.
(staggers to feet and opens gate)
There's still power - We can make it.

(Misato pins Shinji against gate)

-Shinji... from here out you're on your own.
You have to make the decisions by yourself - without anyone's help.

Shinji:
I... I can't do it. I just can't...
I can't pilot Eva if it means I'm going to hurt or even kill other people.
I have no right to do that.
I thought that piloting Eva was my only choice...
But I was just fooling myself.
I don't understand anything - I'm not worthy to pilot Eva.
There's nothing that I can do for other people!
I've done terrible things to Asuka, and even killed Kaworu...
There isn't a shred of kindness in me!
Only dishonesty and cowardice...
If I can only hurt people, then I'd rather not do anything at all!

Misato (angrily):
I'm not going to feel sorry for you.
If you don't want to be hurt, then just die without doing anything at all!

(Shinji starts crying)

-Crying won't help you now!

(Misato's tone becomes gentler)

-You hate yourself, right?
That's why you hurt other people...
Because you know that hurting other people is more painful than hurting yourself.
But, no matter what happens, remember that it was your decision.
And that makes it worthwhile, Shinji - Because you decided by yourself!
So stop lying to yourself... Think about what you can do... And then live with your decisions.

Shinji:
But you're... you're not me!
You don't understand anything about ME!!

(Misato slams Shinji against the gate)

Misato (harshly):
So what if I'm not you!?
Are you just going to give up now!?
If you stay here and do nothing, I won't forgive you!
I'll NEVER forgive you!!

(Misato's tone changes to desperation)

-Nobody's perfect.
You realize that you've made a mistake, and then regret it...
That's all I've ever known.
Nothing but empty happiness and hating myself.
But... I feel like I always grew from the experience!

Misato (gently):
Listen, Shinji. Pilot Eva once more and find yourself.
Pilot Eva to face the questions "Why did you come here?"
"Why are you here?"
Find your own answers.
And then... after finding yourself... come back to me.

(Misato places her cross in Shinji's hand)

Misato:
It's a promise.
Now, go.

(Misato kisses Shinji deeply)

Misato(sultry voice):
That's a grownup kiss.
We'll do the rest when you get back...

(Misato pushes the stunned Shinji into the elevator and then collapses)

Misato (weakly):
If I knew it would end this way...
I would've done like Asuka said...
And changed the carpet...
Right, Pen-pen?
Kaji... did I do all right?
- Sachi

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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby zlink64 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:30 am

You right my bad. It looks like he was nodding yes to me. Since he gave her like a nod and a grunt response to her. Plus they replace the grunt with a yes in dub so was thinking it from that. And since there's a difference how should I interpret/understand that nod and grunt in ur opinion? Like it wasn't a no. Like what you post describe Misato's and Shinji's physical stuff but skipped Shinji's response to her. He responds semi-non verbally and with a nod after the line of promise and before now go.
Last edited by zlink64 on Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:05 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:35 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I don't think that's "clear" at all. There's a reason Misato decided to go there specifically. It's not like this came out of nowhere. People keep acting like all of these events exist in a vacuum from each other; that's not how it works.


. . . but the rest of the post you quoted addressed the earlier scene, so I don't get where you're going here.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby lily liver » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:46 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:If you are talking about the kiss scene I think you are wrong. Shinji promises her that he will pilot before the kiss. She didn't have to use sex to manipulate him at that point.


well, that doesn't mean much. he promised to do it? how many times in the series does he promise to do something, only to change his mind later? at this point, i don't see why Misato doing that because she wanted to, and because it would motivate Shinji are necessarily mutually exclusive.

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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby zlink64 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:23 am

It was a response to Pwhodges who think Misato was using Shinji. He could be right but and it wouldn't change much. I was just sharing that that moment didn't really come off as Misato manipulating Shinji to me since kissing was the very last thing she did. and it seemed like Shinji would've done what she asked, regardless of kiss, at the point in the conversation. So the change would be in the what the kiss means to Misato I guess. Also not sure if I would describe Shinji as a promise breaker. I mean like Kaiji and Shinji practically had the same kind conversation as the kiss scene after Toji died and Kaji didn't need to bribe pr manipulate Shinji. Albeit Midsato had to be a bit more direct, since, Shinji was in a worst state, but the two situations where extremely similar other than that.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:40 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:. . . but the rest of the post you quoted addressed the earlier scene

If it did, it was in a way that denies the erotic subtext as furiously as possible and makes it seem like Misato giving Shinji tongue and promising sex is tangentially related at best...

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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby gatotsu911 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:14 pm

How could anyone disagree with the objective truth about Eva

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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby zlink64 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:52 pm

@Gatutso The disagreement isn't over whether or not the scene is ambiguous. The disagreement is that your interpretation of the scene is dependent on you downplaying what happens before and after it and how it's all connected; that's not how narrative works when conveying information. As a result it fails to acknowledge or reconcile the things that happen before and after it in a satisfying way, like your viewpoint adds more questions. Specifically from your stand there is a piece missing between the irony scene and the EoE scene. If this wasn't case I wouldn't be nitpicking it, I'd just be like "oh cool never noticed". So yeah it's objectively true that the scene is open to interpretation but your interpretation arguably doesn't make sense/starts to break down when you start to think of the context around the scene.

Really the problem is that the way you are treating the scene is very weird. Like why would you put emphasize on interpreting the scene exclusively on it's own I.E downplay the stuff outside the scene? You probably aren't doing this for any other part of the show and in general you wouldn't do this for fiction in general anyway so why do it just for this one scene? You are treating it strangely/differently than the norm.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:59 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:If it did, it was in a way that denies the erotic subtext as furiously as possible and makes it seem like Misato giving Shinji tongue and promising sex is tangentially related at best...


I do not get that reading from Paul's post at all. I seriously have no idea what you're talking about here.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:10 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I do not get that reading from Paul's post at all. I seriously have no idea what you're talking about here.

Oh, you were talking about THAT post. Paul said "it's perfectly clear that Misato was doing [so and so]", which read to me as the usual, "she was just trying to motivate him into piloting Eva and there was absolutely nothing else going on". If I misinterpreted, I'm pretty sure Paul is perfectly capable of clarifying what he meant if he found issue with my response. :tongueflap:

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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:14 pm

I'm sorry to say this, but i am utterly lost and confused as to what everyone is currently talking about
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:17 pm

Misato knows she's dying; she also knows that things will end badly if Shinji doesn't at least try to do something. Obviously she understands the use of sex as a means of persuasion, or she wouldn't have gone that way. But I do not find it convincing to imagine that she takes this moment to indulge in a purely hedonistic action - she does it for a reason.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby zlink64 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:20 pm

Well it doesn't have to be purely hedonistic. Like it's technically a first kiss... calling that purely hedonistic I think probably ignores the emotional side of it. Like hypothetically if it's love would you call a good bye kiss hedonistic? There could've been a spirtual/higher level(more than just physical) to what happened there.
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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:24 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Misato knows she's dying; she also knows that things will end badly if Shinji doesn't at least try to do something. Obviously she understands the use of sex as a means of persuasion, or she wouldn't have gone that way. But I do not find it convincing to imagine that she takes this moment to indulge in a purely hedonistic action - she does it for a reason.

People do things not for one single reason, but as a culmination of many. In this case, dying and needing to motivate Shinji enable a continuation of the psychosexual thread that has already been established (in episode #23 and earlier, and is more greatly fleshed out in #25).

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Re: Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:27 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Well it doesn't have to be purely hedonistic. Like it's technically a first kiss... calling that purely hedonistic I think probably ignores the emotional side of it. Like hypothetically if it's love would you call a good bye kiss hedonistic? There could've been a spiritual/higher level(more than just physical) to what happened there.

If it's entirely one-sided, then yes, it could be hedonistic. And I don't think anyone is arguing that Shinji was acting sexually towards Misato here!

Reichu wrote:People do things not for one single reason, but as a culmination of many. In this case, dying and needing to motivate Shinji enable a continuation of the psychosexual thread that has already been established (in episode #23 and earlier, and is more greatly fleshed out in #25).

Which I don't find incompatible with what I said.
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