In the Archives Subforum there is a thread discussing the possibility that Instrumentality is analagous to the idea of Nibbana. Unfortunately, I don't yet have the necessary special permissions to post there (seeing as how this is my first post, actually), so I decided to start a new thread. Excuse me if there is a more appropriate thread already in use.. Anyhow, I'll begin with some reference:

The traditional Buddhist idea of Nibbana is the liberation of Ego (that is to say, the "I" that thinks and feels and wants) in favor of submition to the whim of the Wheel of Dharma (or what the West might call Fate).

This is a stark contrast to the Abrahamic idea of paradise, as in esoteric Judeo-Christian lore, Heaven is the literal attainment of co-equal godhead with an original source being (in essence, being a co-creator of reality).

One the one hand we have Destiny, and on the other, Agency. However, to me, Evangelion is a synergistic melding of mystical traditions, drawing from both sides of the dualistic precepts. And it is because of this cooperation that we see such dichotomy in the apparent goals of Third Impact from our parties (being Gendo, Yui, SEELE, and Shinji). The Ikari family, despite their various motivations, all favor the Abrahamic ideal. SEELE prefers the idea of relinquishing human control of the matter, rather, allowing Humanity as a whole the godhead.

But what does Instrumentality actually entail? Nibbana isn't exactly accurate, though it is similar, because Instrumentality is a Singularity event rather than a Void existence. And Heaven isn't accurate at all, expect in the scenario of only one indivual realizing god status, and then only for them. So, maybe Instrumentality can be seen as a non-dualistic alternative to the conventional human ideals of paradise.. Maybe, had the Angel species succeeded in triggering their own Third Impact Scenario, an entirely different picture could be painted.

The reason I even began this thread is to discuss the philosophical and anthropic implications of the Instrumentality of Mankind. I've seen some users appalled at the idea of one person weilding the power of a god (whether they're angry at Gendo for being selfish, Yui for overreaching, or Shinji for cowardice), and I've also seen others up in arms over SEELE's plans (apparently, because their "God" may not necessarily be a true god, or at least, the true god of all people). Hell, even the Angel species' motivations for triggering Third Impact seem strangely human at their basest level.. Maybe I'm projecting (considering I'm only human heheh), but the genocide of an entire species for the benefit of another seems like a human racial conflict in the vein of Holocaust.

Personally, I believe Instrumentality really is the final goal of humanity.. The original Third Impact scenario (the seemingly inevitable death of the A.T. Field and resurrection of Lillim as Angel) is a peaceful and amicable end-times for me. I guess I differ from Anno in this sense.. Whereas Anno seems to be telling us to live, struggle and fight for life until our last, I can't see the logic there..

The Instrumentality of Man would result in the eradication of human separation, and thus human suffering. Tabris, the Angel of Free Will himself, sacrifices the cause of its own species so that humanity can be relieved of what equates to original sin and the fall from a state of grace. Isn't that ideal?

Still, maybe grace is variable.. Maybe Angelic beings can exist as many in one, but not men. Is it the destiny of men to be forever one being fractured and reflected? I can only imagine godhead is a lonely state. Kabbalic lore tells us that the Source had great love, but nothing as well, because love is a flowing expression, and that, being incapable of sharing this great love, Source divided so that it itself could feel the reciprocation of the only real novelty of human life, compassion. Is this love what separates Lillim from Angels?

Angels, to me, represent highly condensed manifestations of psychic processes and concepts. But if the Human "Angel" and life on Earth is to represent the idea of Love, we cannot be one entity.. I think Shinji must have felt that this was true in the final moments of Third Impact.


I guess I'm rambling a bit now... I suppose I just want to hear what you all think. What's the goal here? What's our purpose? With a Singularity event a very real possibility thanks to cybernetic virtualization and the Internet hive-mind, not to mention possibly being a necessary evolutionary step (if humanity is to become a cosmic species and outpace supernova or even heat death), must we shed the very thing that defines us as human?

This thread, I presume? -- http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/3861/Human-Instrumentality-Mass-Nirvana/

Exactly. Ha, I'd originally intended to clarify the differences I see in Nibbana and Instrumentality, but I got a bit off topic.. Guess it's for the better that I couldn't just respond in that thread. Although, I still maintain my position regarding the ANArchive thread.

Here, I only want to better understand both the role of Instrumentality in the progression of humanity and the effect on the human condition.

There's a minor misconception you seem to be making. The eradication of human separation does not create an idealized, compassionate being. It's essentially a genocide because it destroys everyone's minds to create an entity that doesn't need or desire anything. No one who currently exists gains any benefit because they cease to be in any meaningful way. That is why Instrumentality is not desirable and why the show denounces it. Accepting it is identical to commiting suicide and running away from facing life.

And Tabris sacrificed itself so that mankind could live, which is an anti-Instrumentality sentiment.

AuraTwilight wrote:to create an entity that doesn't need or desire anything.

Can we know that? What's always given me pause about the concept of HI is that surely we can't have any idea what the outcome would be. The result could as well be a tortured monster - what an outcome to destroying humanity!

AuraTwilight wrote:There's a minor misconception you seem to be making. The eradication of human separation does not create an idealized, compassionate being. It's essentially a genocide because it destroys everyone's minds to create an entity that doesn't need or desire anything. No one who currently exists gains any benefit because they cease to be in any meaningful way. That is why Instrumentality is not desirable and why the show denounces it. Accepting it is identical to commiting suicide and running away from facing life.

And Tabris sacrificed itself so that mankind could live, which is an anti-Instrumentality sentiment.

You misunderstand my conception of ideal.. Why is a benevolent and compassionate being preferable to a true neutrality? Anthropically, it is because compassion is the remedy for pain, because love and goodwill eliminates the torturous loneliness that is the human condition. However, devoid of separation, and thus the ability to cause one another pain, to deprive each other of the sense of communion.. In this state, the human condition is changed. See, desire is the root of suffering, in that a being with no want knows only content peace. (And maybe boredom lol.)

Additionally, why must all individuality be destroyed in order to create a supra-being? Couldn't we all join, rather than break? If we are all pieces of the godhead, separate, the Instrumentality is a union, not destruction. We do not cease to be. We are all necessary pieces to the jigsaw puzzle. There can be no complete being without all of us, which is why Shinji's decision to incarnate deprives us of the Living God that Seele envisioned.

Finally, Tabris did not wish for men to live. Only for Shinji to choose. This only denies the Third Impact scenario that would result in the eradication of the Lillim species in favor of Adam's Angels, not necessarily denying the possibility of an supra-entity of Lillim, something along the lines of the Kabbalic notion of Adam Kadmon. Tabris gives the choice to Shinji, depriving only the Adam Angel species' their domain.



pwhodges, I just can't imagine a logical reason why a godhead Lillim would be tortured or in pain, excepting loneliness in the divine perspective.. Which is what my final question in the original post entails. Is the only reason for human life's existence truly just the experience of both separation and reunion, so that love can be felt? Can divine beings not interact? Do divine beings even experience emotions like longing?



Besides, the real question here is, will human singularity become necessary in the near future? Can we as a species survive as solitary, reality-tunneled beings existing in a microcosmic virtual or quantum paradise of our own design? (Again, with the power of creation rivaling the human conception of deity, will we even need another sentience than our own? Solipsism is a very real phenomenon in virtual space..) Or is our destiny to be forever at odds and alone, only in order to experience the beauty of the rare instances we are together?

Some relevant earlier reading material:

[url]http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/3328/Instrumentality-Yay-or-Nay-Also-speculation-consequences/0/?[/url]
[url]http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/15165/The-Morality-of-Instrumentality/0/?[/url]

Sleigh Lain Fish wrote:pwhodges, I just can't imagine a logical reason why a godhead Lillim would be tortured or in pain, excepting loneliness in the divine perspective.

I was thinking that there are so many differences between individuals, their views and feelings, that mashing them all together could produce contradictions that not even the comprehensive self-knowledge that is implied would be able to resolve.

pwhodges wrote:I was thinking that there are so many differences between individuals, their views and feelings, that mashing them all together could produce contradictions that not even the comprehensive self-knowledge that is implied would be able to resolve.

It's not a mere "mashing together", mind. The boundaries between individuals are torn down, such that it becomes impossible to tell where one person ends and another begins. Without any ability to shut out or keep in, views and feelings would gradually become one big homogenized soup. At least, this is how I've imagined the process to work.

I'm finally finished with the threads linked, and after reading that enormous mass of opinion and information, I've arrived at the opinion that Instrumentality is not a process of literal metaphysical and organic union into a supra-being, but perhaps something more akin to the radical individuation of personal psyche. Meaning, had everyone embraced the union into godhead, Instrumentality may have gone down like Seele envisioned, with a new deity capable of autonomous creation and immortal longevity, able to explore the new boundaries of its higher dimensional existence.. Except, due to the willful rejection of union, the Instrumentality process simply created solipsistic realities wherein each experiencing the process is subjected to the forcible integration of the akashic records into their current perspective. Then, after the complementation phase (in which organic life is reverted to LCL), the Trinity Being offered everyone the same choice Shinji is given, to return to the post-apocalyptic wasteland of Earth, or to remain in the quantum-virtual state in the sea of LCL.

The main qualm I've noticed people retaining has been either, 1) the fact that individual personality is sacrificed in creating a new god (which is why it failed, and is due to, in my opinion, egotistical short-sightedness), or 2) how Instrumentality is forced upon humanity, which violates free will (but there are millions of examples of situations being forced on humanity; life isn't fair, you don't always get a choice, and to bemoan this fact is simply childish and naive). Do the means justify the ends? For me, undoubtedly yes.


Nonetheless, all this back and forth is entirely subjective, and says nothing to the real question I asked.. That is, can humanity survive as a cosmic and aeonic species while retaining the individuality? Will division and competition disallow our species the ability to thrive on a grand scale? And if so, considering there are two solutions to this problem (being reality-tunneling in virtual space or singularity in quantum aether), will the next evolutionary step rob us of what inherently makes homo sapien "human", that is love? Is inorganic life not life?

pwhodges wrote:Can we know that? What's always given me pause about the concept of HI is that surely we can't have any idea what the outcome would be. The result could as well be a tortured monster - what an outcome to destroying humanity!

At the very least, it's SEELE's goal to create the being I described. How successful they'd be is up in the air, sure.

You misunderstand my conception of ideal.. Why is a benevolent and compassionate being preferable to a true neutrality? Anthropically, it is because compassion is the remedy for pain, because love and goodwill eliminates the torturous loneliness that is the human condition. However, devoid of separation, and thus the ability to cause one another pain, to deprive each other of the sense of communion.. In this state, the human condition is changed. See, desire is the root of suffering, in that a being with no want knows only content peace. (And maybe boredom lol.)

And yet, beings and lifeforms exist besides the entities being fused into this hypothetical being. Compassion still has a use. :P

That being said, for something that uses the 10 Sephirot as a symbol during it's creation, it's pretty weird and un-ideal for this 'God' to not adhere to the principle of Keter, the infinite compassion for things not yet created.

Additionally, why must all individuality be destroyed in order to create a supra-being? Couldn't we all join, rather than break? If we are all pieces of the godhead, separate, the Instrumentality is a union, not destruction. We do not cease to be. We are all necessary pieces to the jigsaw puzzle. There can be no complete being without all of us, which is why Shinji's decision to incarnate deprives us of the Living God that Seele envisioned.

The film and series hammer it in pretty hard that Instrumentality basically kills everyone involved. The Godhead might have your former memories, but it won't have your emotions or personality. You/Shinji/Everyone Else effectively cease to be in any meaningful way. That's the point, and that's why Shinji rejected it.

Finally, Tabris did not wish for men to live. Only for Shinji to choose. This only denies the Third Impact scenario that would result in the eradication of the Lillim species in favor of Adam's Angels, not necessarily denying the possibility of an supra-entity of Lillim, something along the lines of the Kabbalic notion of Adam Kadmon. Tabris gives the choice to Shinji, depriving only the Adam Angel species' their domain.

"And you are not the existence that should die."

I don't know, Kaworu seemed pretty down with dying for the sake of Lilin, who were willing to do whatever it takes to survive in contrast to himself.

pwhodges, I just can't imagine a logical reason why a godhead Lillim would be tortured or in pain, excepting loneliness in the divine perspective.. Which is what my final question in the original post entails. Is the only reason for human life's existence truly just the experience of both separation and reunion, so that love can be felt? Can divine beings not interact? Do divine beings even experience emotions like longing?

According Seele, all of those questions can be answered with a no.

Besides, the real question here is, will human singularity become necessary in the near future? Can we as a species survive as solitary, reality-tunneled beings existing in a microcosmic virtual or quantum paradise of our own design? (Again, with the power of creation rivaling the human conception of deity, will we even need another sentience than our own? Solipsism is a very real phenomenon in virtual space..) Or is our destiny to be forever at odds and alone, only in order to experience the beauty of the rare instances we are together?

SEELE's scenario is effectively the exact opposite of a Singularity; it's a downgrade, not an upgrade.

1) the fact that individual personality is sacrificed in creating a new god (which is why it failed, and is due to, in my opinion, egotistical short-sightedness)

There'ss nothing egotistical or shortsighted about it; genociding billions of sentient lifeforms to create a being that MAY OR MAY NOT BE sentient is incredibly reckless, wasteful, destructive, and sociopathic. If the goal is to create a godlike immortal being that can explore the universe and create, we already HAD that in the Adam/Lilith/Giant Rei entity. Destroying mankind isn't just a waste, but utterly redundant.

or 2) how Instrumentality is forced upon humanity, which violates free will (but there are millions of examples of situations being forced on humanity; life isn't fair, you don't always get a choice, and to bemoan this fact is simply childish and naive).

That doesn't make them okay, and there's nothing childish and naive about solving problems or preventing injustices from being perpetuated if you can do anything about it. Instrumentality violated the rights and freedoms of literally every life form on the planet, and is so disgustingly aberrant that the First Ancestral Race who created Adam and Lilith in the first place specifically put measures in place to keep it from happening, because it was antithetical to their goal of spreading life throughout the universe (which atleast implies the resulting being isn't creating anything).

Do the means justify the ends? For me, undoubtedly yes.

and literally every real-life Singularitarian would vehemently disagree with you. There's a reason there's a lot of high priority investment on creating FRIENDLY AI, and making sure a Singularity doesn't destroy humanity or violate our rights as living beings. Create a being by sacrificing billions of lifeforms needlessly and you teach it it's okay to do that. Cue that being going across the universe, killing everything it encounters to absorb their memories and life experiences, doing nothing but eating for self-growth.

It wouldn't be the first time such an outcome was depicted in Singularity fiction.

Nonetheless, all this back and forth is entirely subjective, and says nothing to the real question I asked.. That is, can humanity survive as a cosmic and aeonic species while retaining the individuality? Will division and competition disallow our species the ability to thrive on a grand scale? And if so, considering there are two solutions to this problem (being reality-tunneling in virtual space or singularity in quantum aether), will the next evolutionary step rob us of what inherently makes homo sapien "human", that is love? Is inorganic life not life?

If humanity doesn't survive with individuality or 'love' intact, then it's entirely pointless to speculate; humanity is already dead. No Singularity scenario requires a merger of human minds; Reality-Tunneling and Quantum Aether both allow for human beings to coexist as emotional individuals with supra-intelligence.

Hell, recent psychological science is turning up evidence that emotions are required for proper, non-insane sentience in the first place. Another reason for me to doubt the HIP-Godhead's intelligence and agency to do anything.

Sleigh Lain Fish wrote:akashic records

It's hard to take you seriously after casually dropping this into the mix.

can humanity survive as a cosmic and aeonic species while retaining the individuality? Will division and competition disallow our species the ability to thrive on a grand scale?

I have no idea what that means, so I can't answer you. If various factors are an insurmountable hindrance would depend on what competition we find in the larger arena.

And if so, considering there are two solutions to this problem (being reality-tunneling in virtual space or singularity in quantum aether), will the next evolutionary step rob us of what inherently makes homo sapien "human", that is love? Is inorganic life not life?

Until someone achieves either state how can we know anything about the experience?

AuraTwilight wrote:And yet, beings and lifeforms exist besides the entities being fused into this hypothetical being. Compassion still has a use. :P

That being said, for something that uses the 10 Sephirot as a symbol during it's creation, it's pretty weird and un-ideal for this 'God' to not adhere to the principle of Keter, the infinite compassion for things not yet created.

I've studied Kaballah extensively (my mom is a jewish mystic), and Keter may be the crown of the tree, but the tree is a ladder and tool used to activate ALL the waypoints. The ultimate goal is the utilization of all sephirot, especially the Crown Trinity of Keter, Chakmah, and Binah, to allow the incomprhensible understanding and wisdom united in Da'at, which is essentially existing AS the flow of energy from Source to Vessel and back.
The point being, compassion is useful in the material plane, but only a brick in the wall or step on the path to attaining liberation.

The film and series hammer it in pretty hard that Instrumentality basically kills everyone involved. The Godhead might have your former memories, but it won't have your emotions or personality. You/Shinji/Everyone Else effectively cease to be in any meaningful way. That's the point, and that's why Shinji rejected it.

But I am not my personality. I am not a conglomerate cause and reaction process of nmemonic neural networking. That is the false self, which all mysticism (other than carnal Left paths) advocate shedding. Moreover, I exist for the express purpose of contributing to and unifying the already existing human supra-mind that is the electromagnetic field (akashic records) and our own pet project (the internet). In my opinion, the point of humanity is unification of the fields.

"And you are not the existence that should die."

I don't know, Kaworu seemed pretty down with dying for the sake of Lilin, who were willing to do whatever it takes to survive in contrast to himself.

It was speaking directly to Shinji.. You are not the existence that should die. Again, he gave Shinji choice, as in the Angel of Free Will.

According Seele, all of those questions can be answered with a no.

SEELE's scenario is effectively the exact opposite of a Singularity; it's a downgrade, not an upgrade.

Seele is not the know all end all. They themselves wanted the conteol godhead, not allow humanity the right. Besides, I'm not arguing for Seele's Instrumentality, I'm arguing for the process itself.

There'ss nothing egotistical or shortsighted about it; genociding billions of sentient lifeforms to create a being that MAY OR MAY NOT BE sentient is incredibly reckless, wasteful, destructive, and sociopathic. If the goal is to create a godlike immortal being that can explore the universe and create, we already HAD that in the Adam/Lilith/Giant Rei entity. Destroying mankind isn't just a waste, but utterly redundant.

We had no trinity being before Instrumentality began, so moot, but let's play anyway. It's a simple cost/reward scenario, and your view of the matter is about personal perspective. To me, the risk is worth taking. Call me a sociopath if you like, but the greatest benefit is worth the direst consequence. Besides, you say so yourself, life is incredibly resilient.. I'm not so arrogant as to think humans are the pinnacle of evolution thus far (that honor goea to DNA), and I'm not so egoic to think humanity, or any life for that matter, intrinsically deserves life. Earn it.

It's like, what will be is the absolute will. If we are presented, through natural opportunity or human effort alike, the opportunity to evolve, it's weak and scared to deny that. The chance wouldn't be manifest if it weren't supposed to be.

That doesn't make them okay, and there's nothing childish and naive about solving problems or preventing injustices from being perpetuated if you can do anything about it. Instrumentality violated the rights and freedoms of literally every life form on the planet, and is so disgustingly aberrant that the First Ancestral Race who created Adam and Lilith in the first place specifically put measures in place to keep it from happening, because it was antithetical to their goal of spreading life throughout the universe (which atleast implies the resulting being isn't creating anything).

I didn't say they were okay, only that they ARE. Morality and ethics don't exist on the cosmic scale. Life and the Universe are indifferent, and the only goal is the proliferation and advancement of the base field of information. It's not childish or naive to prevent injustice, only to feel disdain when you cannot. Grief, pain? Acceptable responses. Hateful contempt? No, it's simply irrational, like humans love.

and literally every real-life Singularitarian would vehemently disagree with you. There's a reason there's a lot of high priority investment on creating FRIENDLY AI, and making sure a Singularity doesn't destroy humanity or violate our rights as living beings. Create a being by sacrificing billions of lifeforms needlessly and you teach it it's okay to do that. Cue that being going across the universe, killing everything it encounters to absorb their memories and life experiences, doing nothing but eating for self-growth.

It wouldn't be the first time such an outcome was depicted in Singularity fiction.

You're confusing a grey goo singularity scenario with a unification singularity.

If humanity doesn't survive with individuality or 'love' intact, then it's entirely pointless to speculate; humanity is already dead. No Singularity scenario requires a merger of human minds; Reality-Tunneling and Quantum Aether both allow for human beings to coexist as emotional individuals with supra-intelligence.



And nemZ, just because the lame-ass new age scene appropriates a term, doesn't make it invalid. Akashic Records are simply the collective unconscious' knowledge base, and it's very likely being consistently generated in the magnetic field and in the internet itself.

Hell, recent psychological science is turning up evidence that emotions are required for proper, non-insane sentience in the first place. Another reason for me to doubt the HIP-Godhead's intelligence and agency to do anything.

While I disdisagree with the last paragraph (current limitations by simple information retrieval and processing lacking sentience, so yah, they can be irrational), maybe you're right when you say humanity will be dead already. But, then, is our purpose to remain human and have compassion, or to further advance our knowledge base and ensure the survival of the CURRENT living species of Man, whatever form that may take?

NemZ

cosmic and aeonic means without the limitations of space and time. Also, the akashic records are very real, not in the lame ass new age stolen sense, but in the fact that the electric universe is real, and our earth has a ready made repository for information in the electro-magnetic field. Plus, we've been developing our own for a while now in th internet. It's just a convenient paraphrase.

Can we try to avoid omnislashing, please?

Sleigh Lain Fish wrote:The main qualm I've noticed people retaining has been either, 1) the fact that individual personality is sacrificed in creating a new god (which is why it failed, and is due to, in my opinion, egotistical short-sightedness), or 2) how Instrumentality is forced upon humanity, which violates free will (but there are millions of examples of situations being forced on humanity; life isn't fair, you don't always get a choice, and to bemoan this fact is simply childish and naive). Do the means justify the ends? For me, undoubtedly yes.

It's justified for you because you're discarding what's given to us in the text and replacing it with your own idea of what a singularity scenario would entail. EoE and EoTV tells us directly that Instrumentality is the death of individuality, the death of self, and the death of consciousness. It is not the glorious transformation you're describing here. NGE is not Kaballah. Making assumptions based on the latter just because the show uses its props is a mistake.

The TV series is short on details and long on having SEELE warning Gendo not to make any gods; it's EoE which adds the statements that lead to the negative interpretation -- yes, it all comes down to concurrency again.

Meanwhile on Neptune

One of the 18th human species wrote:But in the true racial experience the situation is different. The system of radiation which embraces the whole planet, and includes the million million brains of the race, becomes the physical basis of a racial self. The individual discovers himself to be embodied in all the bodies of the race. He savours in a single intuition all bodily contacts, including the mutual embraces of all lovers. Through the myriad feet of all men and women he enfolds his world in a single grasp. He sees with all eyes, and comprehends in a single vision all visual fields. Thus he perceives at once and as a continuous, variegated sphere, the whole surface of the planet. But not only so. He now stands above the group-minds as they above the individuals. He regards them as a man may regard his own vital tissues, with mingled contempt, sympathy, reverence, and dispassion. He watches them as one might study the living cells of his own brain; but also with the aloof interest of one observing an ant hill; and yet again as one enthralled by the strange and diverse ways of his fellow men; and further as one who, from above the battle, watches himself and his comrades agonizing in some desperate venture; yet chiefly as the artist who has no thought but for his vision and its embodiment.

The only reason I even mentioned Kaballah is because someone else used Keter as point...

And, pretty sure I've said as much before, but this thread is about the idea of an Instrumentality process and the hypothetical future of our 3D humanity. This isn't strictly about what the series or movies or manga depict, this is about the idea.

Plus, yah, the show is vague. And the intended interpretation isn't the only valuable one. That's art for ya.

Sleigh Lain Fish wrote:Also, the akashic records are very real, not in the lame ass new age stolen sense, but in the fact that the electric universe is real, and our earth has a ready made repository for information in the electro-magnetic field.

When you use terms that have alternate connotations it's your responsibility to clarify your intended purpose. What is this akashic record in your own intended sense, why do you think it exists, in what manner is it useful, and what the hell does it have to do with eva?

Mr. Tines wrote:The TV series is short on details and long on having SEELE warning Gendo not to make any gods; it's EoE which adds the statements that lead to the negative interpretation -- yes, it all comes down to concurrency again.

That's debatable, since most everything in EoE re: Instrumentality is referenced at some point in EoTV as well. Yes, it's a matter of interpretation, but the pieces are there. The overwhelming opinion of those who created the show seems to be that it's a very bad thing.

Sleigh Lain Fish wrote:And, pretty sure I've said as much before, but this thread is about the idea of an Instrumentality process and the hypothetical future of our 3D humanity. This isn't strictly about what the series or movies or manga depict, this is about the idea.

How is that valuable? I mean, sure, a post-Singularity takeoff can manifest in any number of ways, and it's certainly worth talking about them, but if you're talking about Instrumentality in the context of Evangelion it makes sense to refer to it as it's depicted in the show rather than cross-pollinating with all manner of other properties, if for no other reason than to ensure that people aren't talking past one another. If you want to talk about post-singularity human existence in general I'd suggest you start/necro a thread in OT and go to town. But if you want to talk about Instrumentality in particular it's probably best to limit the discussion to what's actually in the show. Even if you want to speculate about the use of Instrumentality in other contexts it's a good idea to identify what it actually means rather than running with some other idea that's IiNO (Instrumentality in Name Only).

Can't you follow? First of all, I'm simply clarifying something that another poster made a snide comment about. Also, the new age misappropriation is exactly that, and should not be the go-to definition. So, to clarify, it's exactly what I said, the electro-magnetic field of Earth, which resonates at the Schumann frequency. Tesla made an attempt to tap into it for energy generation, and it's been postulated by the likes of Dr. Anton Wilson and Dr. Talbot that it acts as a repository for the collective unconscious' information base. Basically, it is what allows humans the shared experiences so many near death situations result in. Some researchers have used light and sound to stimulate neural activity at certain oscillations and in certain regions of the brain to tap into it.

The whole reason I even brought it up at all was because it's easier to say that during the complementation phase of the Instrumentality process the individual is forced to confront and integrate both their complete psyche and the akashic records, rather than say that it involves integrating the total sum of human experience stored since the dawn of sentient human life.. It's just shorthand, and jesus christ, I'm sorry I even mentioned the damn thing.. Next time I'll just take the time to write out 'the sum totality of human experience'; much easier than this shit...

Bagheera

Fair enough, I'm done with this thread. It doesn't seem like any speculative discussion can even exist here anyway without the userbase taking offense and raging, so I don't care to hear other opinions anymore anyway. Mind you, that's not been the case here, but judging by the earlier linked threads, pedantry and mild assburgerism quickly devolve into pissing contests and pong level arguments.. "Instrumentality is Suicide" - "No it's not" - "Show Says Show" - "No It Doesn't" - and I'm just not into meaningless debate. So sorry folks, nevermind me. This thread was doomed from the get-go.