Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

[DantesInferno]

Maybe they hitched a ride south inside the black moon? It did seem full to bursting with them towards the end of 3.0.

You know what? That makes perfect sense
Why didn't I think of that. The black moon arrives ahead of Wille, it's perfectly plausible that they brought some infinities with them. We don't see any when the Moon passes by Mount Fuji, granted, but who knows, maybe they were attached to it somehow. Makes more sense than the alternatives I mentioned.

[Konja7]

I am puzzled why you think that 06 is responsible for the Impact. We never got anything resembling confirmation on that, and the fact that the Wanderers have 01 heads instead of 06 heads points quite squarely in the other direction regarding the culprit

To be fair, Mark-06/Lilith was in the center of the Third Impact, so it could give the impression Mark-06 started it.

However, as you said, it is never stated that Mark-06 started that Impact. Mark-06 could be just taking control of the Third Impact for SEELE's goal, but not really starting it.


Honestly, I don't think the reason why they don't show more about the Third Impact is because they don't know how to responsibilize Shinji. It wouldn't be so difficult to put all responsibility on Shinji's N3I, while SEELE are only opportunistic.

They only need to say that the Spear of Gaius couldn't seal Eva-01 anymore and the Third Impact wil start again, but SEELE took the opportunity to transfer that power to Lilith. Or they could say Eva-01's N3I caused the awakening of Lilith some months later and the start of the Third Impact, while SEELE's only role was to send autonomous Mark-06 to take control of the Impact.

[Blockio]

Yeah, 06 I strongly suspect was sent there primarily for damage control of turning an uncontrolled impact event into a controlled one. The actual mechanics have some leeway of how they happened, but let's just say that I think there's a pretty good reason why 01 specifically was sent to space sealed in the tesseract. Of course, this could also be a political move, but that also cycles back to being a matter of 01 being the most clear threat, and the glimpse of the inside that we see in Q being in the signature impact red combined with the whole five second awakening business definitely supports the theory of 01 being an active factor long after being struck by Cassius

[ElMariachi]

I am puzzled why you think that 06 is responsible for the Impact. We never got anything resembling confirmation on that, and the fact that the Wanderers have 01 heads instead of 06 heads points quite squarely in the other direction regarding the culprit

Well, since you asked me directly, I'll answer despite my earlier post:
Because awakening Mark.06 was SEELE's goal since 2.0, that they took over NERV after 2.0 (even though Kaji and Kaworu were secretly against them), that we saw Mark.06 (all but stated to be an Adam) fused with Lilith with an Angel inside of it (and all three times an Eva ate an Angel it resulted in it triggering an Impact) in the place that Kaworu stated to be the epicenter of Third Impact, that we saw a flasback of said Mark.06 fused with Lilith with impact rings above them and Kaji about to go on a suicide ride to stop what Kensuke earlier called Third Impact.

As for the FoIs having Unit 01's image, well that is certainly intriguing I give you that, but it could also be because Rei might have Lilith's soul like in NGE and that's where she was when Third Impact happened, so the FoI, made from the Lilin, instinctively took its current form.

The only way people in this forum managed to square that circle is to invent an completely new mechanism where Impacts can be put on "pause" despite having been entirely dissipated for another Evangelion to go and resume the process several weeks to months later. Instead of just... Mark.06 ate and Angel, awoke and started Third Impact, but this time since it was programmed by SEELE it did what they wanted to have it have the effect they wanted.

Also worth keeping in mind that you interpret this story from Shinji's POV; Q was literally redesigned around the idea of Shinji waking up in an upside-down world where everyone hates him for no reason and why is everyone being mean to me, of course that's Rei Misato she's right there you don't know anything, comfort me Kaworu - and subsequently continuing his path of stubborn destruction by pulling spears despite Kaworu's protests and realising his failure too late, hence his self-destruction and vow of silence for the first hour of Shin. It's hard for you, as an audience, to break from that perspective since that's what was deliberately fed to you - if you had a POV of anyone else, you'd obviously understand their feelings better.

Counterpoint on that: WILLE was asking him to stay put and be a good obedient prisoner while they were trying to kill the person that he risked his life to save just after (unwittingly) giving him the proof that he didn't imagined things and did saved her. (the SDAT)

It takes an immense amount of trust on someone to let their act against all kind of logic like that, and not only Misato and the rest of WILLE didn't gained that trust, they were thoroughly uninterested in building it, they weren't being just "mean", they were constantly threatening to kill him if he stepped out of line, either through the soldiers pointing guns at his head while he was restrained in a bed, the crew whole a part of them looked like they would love to split his skull open, and Misato who put a fucking bomb around his neck just for his "punishment". Hell, Misato's first reflex when Mark.09 burst open the interrogation room was to pull out the bomb's detonator (shaped like a gun, in case the imagery wasn't subtle enough) and threaten to kill him if he didn't obey.

Anyone sane would had GTFO at full speed. And the thing is that I don't even think that WILLE is completely to blame: they thought that NERV didn't had any use for him, they even took the time to prepare a complete briefing about what happened and is happening in order to put him up to speed to the past 14 years, but Mark.09's timing was the worst possible, just after they told him that they didn't found Rei yet gave him the proof that they were wrong, but before he had the time to explain (in fact, the timing is so perfect for Gendo that I still thinks that he somehow monitored the conversation and timed the attack), a complete tragedy of miscommunication.

[Konja7]

As for the FoIs having Unit 01's image, well that is certainly intriguing I give you that, but it could also be because Rei might have Lilith's soul like in NGE and that's where she was when Third Impact happened, so the FoI, made from the Lilin, instinctively took its current form.

You know, this theory will need to invent many things (that weren't told) to work too.

I think Rei has Lilith's soul (there are some hints), but this being the reason why the FOI are Eva-01 copies seems a big jump.

If Mark-06, 12th Angel and a souless Lilith were the only responsible for the Third Impact, the connection with Rei or Eva-01 would be too slim for the FOI being copies of Eva-01

The only way people in this forum managed to square that circle is to invent an completely new mechanism where Impacts can be put on "pause" despite having been entirely dissipated for another Evangelion to go and resume the process several weeks to months later. Instead of just... Mark.06 ate and Angel, awoke and started Third Impact, but this time since it was programmed by SEELE it did what they wanted to have it have the effect they wanted.

To be fair, we're told since 3.0 that the Third Impact is connected to the N3I (when Awakened Eva-01 opened the Gates of Guf), which is the reason why Shinji is blamed. That implies it wouldn't be so simple as Mark-06 and 12th Angel being the only responsibles.

Not to mention that an Eva doesn't just awaken because they ate an Angel. Both Eva-01 and Eva-13 have other elements involved when they awakened.

As I said, it isn't so difficult to create an story that put all the blame on Shinji's N3I. I suspect we have so litte details, because they want to mantain that story secret in case they feel like telling it in the future.

[Blockio]

The only way people in this forum managed to square that circle is to invent an completely new mechanism where Impacts can be put on "pause" despite having been entirely dissipated for another Evangelion to go and resume the process several weeks to months later. Instead of just... Mark.06 ate and Angel, awoke and started Third Impact, but this time since it was programmed by SEELE it did what they wanted to have it have the effect they wanted.

Not really inventing anything, just taking what the movie gives us. To quote two earlier posts of mine:

Someone had to sacrifice themselves in order to stop Third Impact.

Once awakened, Eva Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact.
The Lilin call it the Near Third Impact.
You were the key to it all.

Those lines taken together are hard confirmation that Cassius did not end 3I.
Kaworu explicitly points out that what was started at the end of Ha was 3I proper, that it was Shinji who caused it, and that it is only the lilin who mingle their words about it; given that at this point in the story, he has nothing to hide, we can take him at face value here.
Combine this with Kensuke's line that 3I needed Kaji's sacrifice to be stopped, together with the prior evidence of the flashback showing that Wille already existed by the time he died and Takao naming him as one of Wille's founders, we can conclude that this happened at a later point; therefor, since we know from Kaworu that the entire thing is the result of Shinji and 01, we know that Cassius was not enough to stop it.

Also, what konja said regarding impact conditions

[DantesInferno]

I think the Mark.06 having the 12th angel inside is not "on the same footing" as Eva-01 absorbing the Rei-shaped core of the 10th angel or Eva-13 "eating" the 12th -and later "9th dash"- angels. For starters, the 12th angel is intact inside the Mark.06, whereas in the other instances the angel in question is unmistakenly sacrificed. As amatter of fact, we could instead argue that it was the 12th angel that ended up "eating" the Eva Mark.06, not the other way around.

I think Eva-01 is the trigger of it all as Kaworu said, but I'm not sure it was directly involved in the "restart" that we call "Actual Third Impact" and that happens betwen movies (but this is speculation. It is still possible Eva-01 did reactivate after Cassius was removed and did some shenanigans. Who knows...).

Seele wanted the Mark.06 to be the trigger of Third Impact, not Eva-01. This much is clear from their talk with Gendo and Fuyutsuki (the "true Evangelion", "an actual god as opposed to the fake ones", etc.), the secrecy around Mark.06's construction, etc. it's basically an arms race towards the end of 2.0 to see who gets to "define" Third Impact. I think maybe SEELE thought they could regain control halfway through by sending the Mark.06 to dogma, but the "die was cast" already from the moment Eva-01 triggered N3I, and that's why the inifinities look like it.

I mentioned this before, but I think SEELE launched Eva-01 into space because they couldn't destroyed it (after obtaining both fruits, it became god-like, and thus indestructible, much like Eva-13) so they settled for the next best thing; as a god-like entity, it represented a potential obstacle (or at the very least a wrinkle) to their plans.

[Konja7]

Combine this with Kensuke's line that 3I needed Kaji's sacrifice to be stopped, together with the prior evidence of the flashback showing that Wille already existed by the time he died and Takao naming him as one of Wille's founders, we can conclude that this happened at a later point; therefor, since we know from Kaworu that the entire thing is the result of Shinji and 01, we know that Cassius was not enough to stop it.

Well, I'm not totally sure if Kaji's sacrifice to stop the Third Impact mean a ritual. Or it was an expression about the risk. I really want to know more information about that.


That said, we likely has an example of an Impact paused and restart in 3.0 and 3.0+1.0: The Fourth Impact.

In 3.0, it's mentioned the trigger for the Fourth Impact was Kaworu becoming the 13th Angel.

Shinji: Is it my fault...? Did I... Did I do this?
Kaworu: It's not your fault. It happened because I turned into the 13th Angel. I'm the trigger.

As Kaworu's soul was stil inside Eva-13, we could assume he still fulfill this role for the Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0. The other elements for the Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0 replaced elements in the previous movie (the 9th Angel replace the 12th Angel, while the Black Moon Spear replaced the two Spear of Longinus).


PS: It is interesting that Kaworu sees himself responsible for the Fourth Impact (due to being the trigger), although he never expected or wanted to become the 13th Angel.

[Cola-09]

Some notes/comments on the topic after a fresh rewatch:

- There's 5 Adams, 1 Lilith, this makes a total of 6 lances (confirmed by Gendo in 3+1)
- Four of the Adams bodies were used to build or power the ships, also known as protectors of Guf
- Those ships are guarding the open doors of Guf at Calvary base (ground zero)
- Wunder's original Adams might have been reduced to the Key of Nebuchadnezzar
- Wunder was later on powered by EVA 1 as a substitute for the missing Adams
- The vessels are the seats of the 4 Adams souls
- The vessels seem to intrinsically try to regain control of their bodies or the ships
- The fifth Adams was repurposed into EVA 13 but is still a genuine Seed of Life
- Awakening of a proxy seed (EVA that is genetically based on a Seed of Life) is called pseudo-evolution
- Awakening of a proxy seed can be initiated by pure will of the pilot
- Awakening of a genuine Seed of Life requires consumption of an angel (Fruit of Life)
- Awakening of a genuine Seed of Life seems to be a bigger deal
- Awakenings usually open the doors of Guf, which is a destructive event for all life forms
- Lances seem to be necessary for an orchestrated impact (physical or mental instrumentality)
- Lances can change their form (neutral, Longinus, Cassius, based on wielder, by will)
- Impacts with two Longinus type lances and an Adams result into physical instrumentality
- Impacts with two contrary type lances and a Lilith result into mental instrumentality
- Impacts can occur without an awakened state of the EVA or seed if the doors are already open
- Lilith's moon can be repurposed into an extra set of lances

[Raikyu]

Some notes/comments on the topic after a fresh rewatch

Those are my thoughts exactly. My only exception is regarding the origin of the "Key of Nebuchadnezzar". I think it is something extracted from the Fifth Adams (Evangelion 13) in order for an ordinary human to merge with it and become a God, which is what Gendo did. Wunder's original core was used to build Mark. 09, just like the cores of the other ships/Adams were used to build the remaining Opfer Type Evas.

Maybe when Gendo fused with the Key, he usurped Kaworu's place as the First Angel. I like to think that Kaworu is the reincarnation of the Fifth Adams (or all of them collectively) just like in the original NGE. But we lack enough evidence to infer that, besides the fact that his soul is alway present every time Evangelion 13 is active

[ElMariachi]

Some notes/comments on the topic after a fresh rewatch:

There's still the matter of what is Mark.06.

[Szmitten]

Some notes/comments on the topic after a fresh rewatch:

There's still the matter of what is Mark.06.

I think the implication of the sideways cross, the streak of blood on the moon, and some other deleted thing which I completely forget, implied that those are all Mark.06 and is one of the Adams Vessels, and after it's finished off in Q it was off-screen repurposed into Mark.12 presumably much like how Mark.09 was absolutely a Vessel yet got destroyed and reappeared as Mark.09-A in Shin.

[ChrisTamv]

There's still the matter of what is Mark.06.

Mark.06 is a big mystery for me too. I seriously cannot comprehend why its construction would be portrayed as such a big deal, and why the unit itself would be portrayed (via both words and actions) as special, different from all other Evas, not just a copy of God but a "true God", unless it is also contains one of the Adams. But then again we have only 5 crosses at Ground Zero, which coincide with exactly 5 Units confirmed to contain Adams in the Rebuilds, so what's the deal here?

I really don't know about this one...

My only exception is regarding the origin of the "Key of Nebuchadnezzar". I think it is something extracted from the Fifth Adams (Evangelion 13) in order for an ordinary human to merge with it and become a God, which is what Gendo did.

I haven't seen many people discuss about the possibility that the Key of Nebuchadnezzar is just the 11th Angel. It seems to fit much better than alternative interpretations about it being an Adam, and I haven't found anything that outright contradicts this interpretation.

Like, the 11th Angel is the only one who never makes an appearance in the Rebuilds. Kaji literally refers to it as the "Lost Number", and when merged with it Gendo gains Angel - like powers.

[Blockio]

Nebby being the 11th angel doesn't work in so far as it completely throws off the numbering. Unless they somehow did what NGE Nerv failed to do and recovered an embryotic angel (which, while not strictly impossible, is the kind of thing I'd expect to be at least hinted at were that the intent), and it does also not strictly make sense with the implications of the metaphysics; I don't think that "just" absorbing any normal angel would suffice to elevate him to the state we see him taking in Shin.

As for Mk.6 - I do believe it is one of the Adam bodies, which I argue are distinct from the Adam's Vessels in that they are the bodies of the giants seen at 2I, while the Vessels are the cores extracted out of the bodies and given new shape in their own.

The thing about five Adams is a bit more tenuous, but it goes back to Reichu, wo I still consider to be the de facto authority on the matter and is constantly looking to make sense of more parts of the whole (which means that my retelling of the theory might be outdated in the details, but probably holds water on the whole) - her theory is that the fifth Adam is actually Lilith. Since NTE has very obviously done away with the two origins of life plot point by virtue of having five of them, it removes the need of them being fundamentally different.
It also ties better into all the other numbers we know - five pilots (and only five this time barring clones, with only one active soul at a time, likely that of the five adamin), four vessels, four ships, two Evas we know are Adam bodies (01, 13), one we suspect (06), Nebby and Lilith.
Four and five show up a lot, but never six

[Jinroh]

On the scrolls the fith among beings that seem to be the Adams clearly has four arms, implying it's (or ended up being) Eva-13:



Lilith is pictured as a totally different being, so I don't think she's an Adam. Also her role is different as mankind's progenitor.

[Konja7]

My current theory is that Mark-06 and Eva-13 are created using parts of (the Fifth) Adam's body. That's why Mark-06 was called the True Evangelion.

In Rebuild, it's never established that the Eva 00-05 are created using Adam's body. I think Eva-01 was created using parts of Lilith's body (that's why it can take her place in the Third Impact), but I'm not sure about the others.

On the scrolls the fith among beings that seem to be the Adams clearly has four arms, implying it's (or ended up being) Eva-13:

Also, in the Instrumentality, Shinji says Eva-13 is Kaworu's Eva. So, I suspect the Fifth Adam is the First Angel.

[Cola-09]

I agree, I don't see Lilith being the fifth Adams. In fact, Mari literally says "Farewell Adams" upon destroying the ships. So either the ships are powered by Adams in the same way EVA 01 is powering Wunder, or they are directly made from the remains of the Adams bodies. This leaves us with EVA 13 who is confirmed to be the only straggler Adam.

This means all EVAs except EVA 13 are proxy seeds, even Mark 06. My personal opinion is that SEELE referred to Mark 06 as the true EVA merely because it has a different construction methodology (reference to autonomy, can levitate, etc.) and may be the only EVA they ever built themselves. It may be a simple explanation but it works for me.

As for the vessels, NERV prepared four dedicated Reis to pilot the vessels. Their job is to merge with their original bodies/ships and do that mini-evolution where they grow wings and transform Lilith's moon into a new set of lances. Mark 09 had to hijack Wunder for that matter.

[Raikyu]

This means all EVAs except EVA 13 are proxy seeds, even Mark 06. My personal opinion is that SEELE referred to Mark 06 as the true EVA merely because it has a different construction methodology (reference to autonomy, can levitate, etc.) and may be the only EVA they ever built themselves. It may be a simple explanation but it works for me.

I believe the same. I see it more like while the other Evangelions (fake gods) were built to be weapons in the war against the Angels, Mark.06 was built as a “True God” to bring the Impact that will accomplish Human Instrumentality.

I have a personal theory that Mark. 06 is based on Lilith, just like Unit-01. Mark.06 was designed to be “Unit-01 dark twin brother” and during its construction on the moon, the body inside of the armour as the same shape as Lilith (it even uses the same mask Lilith used in NGE). Also, it was able to merge with Lilith’s body and control it. Unfortunately it is pure speculation, without any concrete clue besides the ones I said.

[ElMariachi]

On the scrolls the fith among beings that seem to be the Adams clearly has four arms, implying it's (or ended up being) Eva-13:



Lilith is pictured as a totally different being, so I don't think she's an Adam. Also her role is different as mankind's progenitor.

On top of the two spears its carrying, we never got to see what looks like its most powerful artifact: the lunchbox of Pilatus.

[DantesInferno]

Also, in the Instrumentality, Shinji says Eva-13 is Kaworu's Eva. So, I suspect the Fifth Adam is the First Angel.

I always took that line as a reference to Shinji and Kaworu being the designated pilots of Eva-13 in Q, nothing more.

But yeah, Lilith is explicitly referred to as the second angel, and the Adams all share some angelic capabilities (halos, etc.) yet they're never "incorporated" into the angel scheme and e.g. given a number. They seem to be in a class of their own, yet the parallels with Lilith are there...

I think SEELE refers to the Mark.06 as the true evangelion because it is somehow imbued with the Fruit of Life. This is consistent with Fuyutsuki referring to it as an actual god, as opposed to the fake ones (i.e., all the evas up until that point). Given how it levitates and has a halo from the moment of its first sortie, I think it is "already awakened"? Although its pilot is a self-delcared angel (the first, nonetheless), so I guess anything goes...