How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

[Kendrix]

^^^^ this.

I'd argue that this is by design.

[EvaChero]

not having seen the conclusion as yet of course, I think on the outside looking in I would have preferred the ending have taken place kind of like a "Reunion" thing with all the characters coming back together after a few years apart in the "real world" having had time to process all that happened. I think for me it would have provided a little more closure and maybe some "off screen" development would have made certain outcomes more acceptable? JMHO YMMV

[Konja7]

Smack-dab in the middle. In NGE I think Rei served as a sort of Anima to Shinji, that's why she's presented as being his "inner voice" in a lot of metaphysical sequences. Yes, Shinji was definitely physically attracted to her like with all the female characters - but by no means did Shinji ever try to rob her of her agency and make her an object for sexual gratification like he did with Asuka in EoE, that's what I mean by his relationship being fueled by lust with her. To me, Rei and Shinji's relationship very much emphasized equality whereas Asuka/Shinji and Kaworu/Shinji were anything but in their extreme one-sidedness. I thought they'd continue this with Rei in Rebuild but it seems like it was dropped sometime in the middle of 2.0. Instead I got the impression of a more familial bond between them even though Rei definitely had romantic feelings for him.

Well, I suspect Shinji would act similar if Rei (or another girl he is physically attracted) was in that bed. After all, that behavior is more on his mental state in EoE, not the kind of relationship Shinji and Asuka have.


Regarding the bond between Rei and Shinji being familial in Rebuild, I noticed there isn't the lust (or sexual attraction) from Shinji towards Rei that he has in the TV anime. Then, maybe creators always wanted to portray a familial bond between them in Ha.

[Joseki]

not having seen the conclusion as yet of course, I think on the outside looking in I would have preferred the ending have taken place kind of like a "Reunion" thing with all the characters coming back together after a few years apart in the "real world" having had time to process all that happened. I think for me it would have provided a little more closure and maybe some "off screen" development would have made certain outcomes more acceptable? JMHO YMMV

The way I see it, there will be no reunion, ever, because what we see at the end is Anno and not Shinji.
The character Shinji Ikari is entirely replaced by a self insert Anno waiting for Mari/Moyoco. He no longer has any connection to the world of Evangelion, perfectly showed by him ignoring Asuka, Rei and Kaworu taking the train in front him in favor of running with Moyoco towards the future.
Shinji stops existing when he's running towards Mari, that's the last time we ever saw him, what follows is Anno's own return to the real world, who can also symbolize him leaving behind the world of animation entirely, as he seems to be focusing only on live action for his next projects.

[bogusman]

The way I see it, there will be no reunion, ever, because what we see at the end is Anno and not Shinji.
The character Shinji Ikari is entirely replaced by a self insert Anno waiting for Mari/Moyoco. He no longer has any connection to the world of Evangelion, perfectly showed by him ignoring Asuka, Rei and Kaworu taking the train in front him in favor of running with Moyoco towards the future.
Shinji stops existing when he's running towards Mari, that's the last time we ever saw him, what follows is Anno's own return to the real world, who can also symbolize him leaving behind the world of animation entirely, as he seems to be focusing only on live action for his next projects.

This make sense, good one, i think for now on i'm gonna go with this interpretation too

[TyroLuuki]

I've understood you can see images of NGE/EoE in Rei's Instrumentality

During Rei's goodbye sequence you can see clips from the TV Series and EoE playing behind her and Shinji like a movie projector, I think that serves more to exemplify how this is the end of Evangelion as a franchise rather than imply Rei has knowledge of the loops/cycles. But she very well could by that point in the movie.
On the other hand, Kaworu and Shinji referring to their meeting in episode 24 seems to be the biggest evidence towards NGE/EoE being directly linked to Rebuild.
I don't see why this is such a shock to some people when Kaworu's VA directly confirmed it in his 3.0 booklet interview....8 years ago.

I noticed there isn't the lust (or sexual attraction) from Shinji towards Rei

I think that's more of a Rebuild-thing than specific to his relationship with Rei. Shinji's sexual attraction to Misato is also gone here too. Rebuild's relationships in general are much more "sterilized and pure" than they were in NGE, that may have been intentional on Anno's part to make the story more palatable to general audiences. I can see Shinji's feelings towards Rei being familial in Rebuild because there's a greater emphasis on family this time around.
To bring it back to Mari, there's a scene earlier in the film where she presses her breasts against Shinji's back and he doesn't blush or get flustered at all. So maybe that's there to show Shinji's relationship with her will not be fueled by shallow feelings of lust but a genuine romantic love for who she is as a person. Kinda the antithesis to what NGE Asuka/Shinji was, in my opinion.

[Xenoblade]

To bring it back to Mari, there's a scene earlier in the film where she presses her breasts against Shinji's back and he doesn't blush or get flustered at all. So maybe that's there to show Shinji's relationship with her will not be fueled by shallow feelings of lust but a genuine romantic love for who she is as a person. Kinda the antithesis to what NGE Asuka/Shinji was, in my opinion.

I think if we're at the stage where we're analyzing whether Shinji blushes or not, it's as sure a sign as any that the relationship with Mari came out of nowhere and wasn't fuelled by anything in the rebuilds.

[Joseki]

If we think about the epilogue romantically, Shinji is pretty much the damsel in distress of the story. The only reason we are given as viewers for him to fall for Mari is her being nice to him and her saving him. If the genders were reversed we'd be talking a lot more about this.

[Melkor]

If we think about the epilogue romantically, Shinji is pretty much the damsel in distress of the story. The only reason we are given as viewers for him to fall for Mari is her being nice to him and her saving him. If the genders were reversed we'd be talking a lot more about this.

Reminds me of Mari's whole "save the princess" speech to Shinji. What if the princess that needed saving wasn't Asuka, but was actually Shinji the whole time?

[T. K. Simon]

Well, if that's the case, we'll never know what happened after the end of EoE (we don't know when the universe restarts)

[FelipeFritschF]

It wouldn't be the first time Shinji is put on a reverse or feminine role in some sense. Eva loves shifting these around, then again considering Anno's proclivities I don't think that's necessarily what he's going for so much as making him vulnerable again. Asuka's line that he "needs a mother, not a girlfriend" applies, and I'm not mentioning it to say Mari is simply his mother figure and nothing else - though it seems like a valid reading and at least Ogata believes a variation of it - friend of the family/parents... so, Auntie Mari? If Anno sees himself as needing a mommy gf to save him - and Asuka is certainly not that - it's applicable that he could reproduce that in Mari... still lame though when that was already played with explicitly with Rei in NGE (not so much in NTE, I suppose) and discarded and those "escape from the womb" grounds. Meanwhile Rei herself just pokapokas it up in 2.0 and after that... what? I'm having a hard time determining a clear thematic position for her, and I don't think the old "represents escapism" analogy is good enough. I suppose her being an unconscious Shinji is still true to some degree, but her motherly existence as Sadamoto puts it is kinda excised from her character. To say nothing of Misato and I'm still rather annoyed at the reduction of her role overall. It again feels like Mari just ate bits and bits of other characters and has nothing going on for herself, besides being an outsider... and even then it's hard to buy that without taking into account background, production information.

NGE had incredible balance for its characters and almost everything fit, it just clicked extremely well. In NTE... not so much.

Well, if that's the case, we'll never know what happened after the end of EoE (we don't know when the universe restarts)

We are not supposed to. EoE was a finalized story by design, and continuing it, even though it was technically possible, would defeat its purpose. You're supposed to wonder if people are gonna come back, if humanity is gonna change, if Asuka and Shinji can live and grow... of course, EoTV was also final, and Gainax treated them as alternate routes even if they both had narrative and thematic value (sorry, Concurrency Theorists). Possibly we can treat NTE as a third route, but either way I'm interested in the reading that there is a "Rebuild!NGE", with its own EoE and its own Shikinami, but EoE itself stands on its own separately regardless - as NTE has no Sohryu in any cycle. This might or might not signify something else as the presence of a Sohryu is maybe te most obvious separator, but I wouldn't bet on it. As an aside, Japanese fans have an amusing trend going on, with "Oriasuka" as a separate character from Sohryu and Shikinami, not unlike the multiple Kaworus, though Rei seems to have more of a convergence in her variations. No love for blonde Mangasuka, though.

SPOILER: Show

Do recall they had considered something akin to a sequel at one point and that eventually was dropped and morphed into NTE's... half-status?

SPOILER: Show

Tsurumaki: I was misunderstood at first, and ended up "participating" in the project before I understood exactly what was going on. When I first heard about the project, I was called by Anno, and I was thinking, "What, what?" He asked me out of the blue, "What would you like to work on next after GunBuster 2, Evangelion 2 or the new work of a very famous anime?" I was confused, but as I was giving my opinions on this and that, I came to the conclusion that "Eva 2" was the way to go. At that time, Anno's new work was supposed to be a completely different project from "Eva".

Interviewer: Is "Eva 2" something different from the "New Movie" that you're working on now?

Tsurumaki: I had assumed that Anno's next anime would be called "Evangelion 2". Even so, it's not a pure sequel, it's something as different as "First Gundam, Gundam 0079" and "MOBILE SUIT GUNDAM SEED". In short, the anime that Anno-san is going to make will all be titled "Evangelion".For example, a work like "The Gutsy Frog" would be called "The Gutsy Evangelion", and "Star of the Giants" would be called "Baseball Evangelion". It's a kind of branding, like "VAIO" for all Sony computers.

That's what he meant by "2". At that time, there was talk that if I wouldn't do it, he would assign it to someone else. Apparently, Mr. Anno wasn't going to officially direct the film, so it was okay to have a completely outsourced staff.

For some reason the formatting isn't working, but this is from the 1.0 CRC. Anno's not fully translated section also mentioned he had those plans since 2000 (!). I think I remember reading something about it being set so far into the future that it wouldn't actually matter (kinda like Diebuster itself, or Portal 2), but don't quote me on that until I can confirm it.

3.0+1.0 pamphlet, 2021  SPOILER: Show

--How did you feel about the conclusion of the series after being involved with "Eva" for so long?

Tsurumaki: When we started the Rebuild of Evangelion series, about 10 years had passed since the TV series, and the number of fans had changed and the number of younger people had increased. So we decided to make a compilation that would allow people to enjoy Eva without having to watch the entire TV series. That was the starting point. We started with the idea that only the end of the four-part series might change, but basically 80% of the series would be a compilation, but that started to shift with ":2.0", and ":3.0" will start from a scene 14 years later, which is not even depicted in the TV series...

You can interpret Shin also as G Gundam, the "final word" of the "main" continuity... and while sure enough, an Eva series adapting ANIMA, Angelic Days, SIRP, or the football pachinko might not count as "canon"... it's looking kinda weird if it even matters, if these would simply be one of the cycles and if that means they still end in Shin anyway or not. If it comes from Tsurumaki, how canon is it? Or someone Anno likes likes that started involving himself more heavily recently like Maeda or Nishigori? Or a notable third party Shinkai/Hosoda/Oshii? Some complete rando? Kojima?!?

For instance, Sadamoto's manga is treated differently from something like Petit Eva, which is made by an outsider and just a spin-off... then again, so is ANIMA, and Yamashita is not an outsider at all. Yet we have Sadamoto's repeated statements that the manga is entirely his own, separate thing (and we have found even more recently). In the NHK doc, Ogata makes it quite clear (and Hayashibara echoes this in the pamphlet) that the spin-offs and merch andgames aren't by Anno and don't matter because they're not real Evangelion. But what if any of these people actually make a continuation to the rebuilt world-verse? What if Anno himself returns at some point? What if he simply has close oversight and major influence? Or distant oversight and minor influence? Are we going to need another Tiers of Canon? Where is Shin-seiki?!? (Oh, SHIN-seiki, haha... did he know?) Perhaps we'll eventually treat those with closer ties to the "core" Eva staff/Anno himself as truer canon.

Future Eva works could present themselves as cycles, and these cycles could all just be NGEesque and necessarily have the same rough order of events, Angels, Evangelions etc, which isn't a given for any future spin-off - Eva is far more dependent on its cast of characters and their dynamics, unlike Gundam which is more about the setting and the mecha. To be honest, there'll probably some sort of different hierarchy for "full-fledged" animations, and this might even get recognition from Khara, not unlike what happens with Gundam.

Regardless, besides getting referenced, there is no clear thematic connection or "answer" to something from NGE/EoE in NTE. You don't have any obvious way to say something like "Misato came back, Kaji didn't, Asuka died and Shinji moved to Iceland". There is no obvious way of saying the cycles erase/overwrite the previous ones or if a new one is just formed in another dimension or something. They seem to have some sort of continuity as a closed loop (or else Kaworu's remembrance wouldn't make sense). Of course, Shinji deletes the Evas yet he preserves the Eva world AND goes to the rebuilt real world, which in-universe can be interpreted as another dimension (even if not a cycle) too. Worth remembering Ogata's recounting in Evangelion Forever that Anno said OMF is and isn't EoE's final ending. That might or might not apply here too. Of course Ogata also believes Shinji might have been split or something... that would have been worse and better in different ways.

So Anno isn't necessary retconning everything and I don't really see anyone arguing for it that isn't already really invested in the ST. Of course, that seems like a possible interpretation but it doesn't have all that much going for it. My vague perusal seems to indicate that about 70% of watchers treat it as a separate thing entirely. Of course, the Japanese don't necessarily care for "canon" as much and see their media experience in a more... integrated way so to speak, and NTE is inevitably a spiritual/thematic sequel to NGE in some manner... thought it doesn't seem to live up to its predecessor as much. Other threads have discussed about its possible lasting appeal.

[Kendrix]

To bring it back to Mari, there's a scene earlier in the film where she presses her breasts against Shinji's back and he doesn't blush or get flustered at all.

That has probably more to do with still being pretty depressed & focussed on other things at the time (much like his earlier total non-reaction to nakey Asuka) - he was was more flustered when she landed on top of him & sniffed him in 2.0 (and indeed, he even reacts more in the epilogue - he's a bit awkward at first but then makes an effort to say a cool, Kaji-like line; I was glad of it when I actually saw it because this is much superior to having him be confident all the way; It's still an effort, a skill he picked up over the last 6 year or so starting with when we last saw him)
So like, they defs kept in touch over the years, but you'd think if they were living in the same household he would be much more used to Mari's lack of personal space sensor, they're really talking more like they met up for the first time in a while.

[Huagh]

To bring it back to Mari, there's a scene earlier in the film where she presses her breasts against Shinji's back and he doesn't blush or get flustered at all.

I think this might have to do with the whole “Shinji is growing up” thing going on. That scene in itself reiterates this is happening twice, with Mari having a line that his scent changed to one of an “adult” and Asuka saying that he has “grown up a bit” after he answers her question as to why she was mad at him this whole time. So I think him not blushing or reacting to Mari being so physically intimate with him is further to reiterate this point; he’s not a little boy that will blush and get flustered over something like that anymore. It’s why he doesn’t react to Asuka’s torn plugsuit during their goodbye scene either.

Although Kendrix point of him still probably being depressed over what has happened and being focused on trying to make things right probably plays a role as well.

[one-eyed]

I think they wasted something very interesting in these memories of other cycles /incarnations / lifetimes in this ending and in the epilogue: the scene with Asuka takes place on the beach of EoE, the scene with Kaworu in places of NGE and NTE, those of Rei, within a kind of theater warehouse with clips from the TV Series and EoE playing behind her and Shinji like a movie projector, opened up the possibility that Eva is a play, a cosmic tragedy, that have been repeated multiple times. Shinji's self-perception and way of speaking changes: he says he has been there with Kaworu before and when he is talking to Rei, he casually talks about changing the whole reality and sets the parameters for change. Rei follows the reasoning and even says what he is thinking of doing: Neon Genesis. They are on the same page.

After Gendo and Yui take Shinji's place as a sacrifice and he is waiting for Mari it would be perfect to show scenes of the cycles with Mari: Mari suspicious, speaking Rei and the mini Reis in a room covered with glyphs, Mari piloting the Frankeneva against an Evas 06 factory jumping from an Alternative Wunder, Shinji walking in a desert determined to arrive in a fortress city in the middle of a red wasteland, etc. So it would mean that Shinji knows Mari and she knows him from another cycle, but she remembers him, but Shinji doesn't remember her. The situation would be like Dracula and Mina Harker, or rather Kate and Jack and Sawyer and Juliet in the last episode of Lost.

Shinji only started to remember in Minus Space (the Godhead) because he was basically human, Kaworu always remembered, Rei didn't remember due to the constant memory editing done by Gendo and Mari remembers because she has been in Minus Space before and, unlike Gendo, her "mother" just downloaded the information about herself (memory, skills, etc.) to the clone (the fruit of knowledge) so that she could defend herself against the abuse she would suffer from Seele.

Imagine, suddenly you look at Asuka's crazy friend and discover that you've lived one or more lives with her! How many lives? One? Two? Ten lives? You now remember ten first meetings, ten first dates, ten first kisses, ten first hugs, ten first times and ten first nights together... The goofy smile when he finds her on the beach and the complicity and dynamics when the universe resets would be justified and until they don't run after Asuka, Rei and Kaworu either. They would have to wait a while because that previous incarnation was almost wasted for these two!

I think it would be like a big story, but intimately I think the goal is simply to put an end to Eva. I think this is kind of a waste.

The way I see it, there will be no reunion, ever, because what we see at the end is Anno and not Shinji.
The character Shinji Ikari is entirely replaced by a self insert Anno waiting for Mari/Moyoco. He no longer has any connection to the world of Evangelion, perfectly showed by him ignoring Asuka, Rei and Kaworu taking the train in front him in favor of running with Moyoco towards the future.
Shinji stops existing when he's running towards Mari, that's the last time we ever saw him, what follows is Anno's own return to the real world, who can also symbolize him leaving behind the world of animation entirely, as he seems to be focusing only on live action for his next projects.

The biggest indication of this is the transition from animation to live action in the movie itself!

[Kendrix]

I#d agree that a Mari instrumentality segment would have been cool (though what I want to see is not shippy stuff, but rather a motive rant much like Asuka's and perhaps the "uptight British boarding school" backstory... granted the convo with the Rei clones is something I wouldn't complain about at all) but she wasn't... in there at the time?

[Joseki]

As I wrote in my previous long post, anything about Mari would have been appreciated really.
What we see in the movie is pretty much an idealization more than an actual character. In a way, she sort of replaced Kaworu in that role by being the completely selfless and supportive character. She is always positive, she is always supportive, she is always there for everyone and she has been like that for at least 28+ years.
In a movie with every single main character and even most of the side characters are struggling and overcoming their inner traumas she sticks out as having none of that.

[ElMariachi]

Smack-dab in the middle. In NGE I think Rei served as a sort of Anima to Shinji, that's why she's presented as being his "inner voice" in a lot of metaphysical sequences. Yes, Shinji was definitely physically attracted to her like with all the female characters - but by no means did Shinji ever try to rob her of her agency and make her an object for sexual gratification like he did with Asuka in EoE, that's what I mean by his relationship being fueled by lust with her. To me, Rei and Shinji's relationship very much emphasized equality whereas Asuka/Shinji and Kaworu/Shinji were anything but in their extreme one-sidedness. I thought they'd continue this with Rei in Rebuild but it seems like it was dropped sometime in the middle of 2.0. Instead I got the impression of a more familial bond between them even though Rei definitely had romantic feelings for him.

Regarding the bond between Rei and Shinji being familial in Rebuild, I noticed there isn't the lust (or sexual attraction) from Shinji towards Rei that he has in the TV anime. Then, maybe creators always wanted to portray a familial bond between them in Ha.

That's how I interpreted Rei and Shinji's relationship in NTE too, as that of siblings, I always saw their interaction in 2.0 as that of a big brother and his little sister: the way Shinji reacts with a slight panic everytime something is not right with her as if he screwed up and should had know better? (like when she says that she doesn't eat meat or when she skipped school for a couple of days) That's 100% big bro energy here!
And 3.0 hammers it even harder by revealing that in this continuity "Ayanami" is not a random name they came up with to give to Rei (like it was in NGE), but Yui's maiden name, and the flashback/vision in 1.0 (and repeated in 3.0+1.0) between Gendo and Yui saying that if their kid is a girl they'll name her Rei.
So Gendo basically made Rei as close of a part of his family as possible short of outright adopting her, the only way to have it more blatant would be to have Rei drop an onii-chan to Shinji!

I wouldn't even say A/S has no development in the Rebuilds as a whole, in fact it seems quite clear that Shin spends a considerable amount of time with their relationship, however it is built more on the legacy of NGE/EoE than 2.0 and 3.0, which is bizarre. Like I mentioned before, the EoE beach has no significant to Rebuild!Shinji and Shikinami, only to NGE!Shinji, Sohryu and the audience. And that just makes it even weirder. They ended up using the last movie to give them more development. It might say something about them in a more meta/franchise sense, but it's still a lazy way to go about it.

Did they thought? I mean I thought that Asuka would follow the same pattern of Misato in Jo, Rei in Ha and Kaworu in Q to be the deuteragonist to Shinji and "mentor" to him about the theme of their respective movie through their talks and conversations (how Shinji is not alone in his struggle and suffering in Jo, how to connect with other people in Ha and how to better understand himself and improve as a person in Q, and in Shin I though it would be about finding his place in the world), but in Shin the first hour is Asuka talking (and venting) to a vegetable Shinji, and when he finally gets out of his funk... they don't talk at all, she stays cooped up in her room playing that fucking Wonderswan while Shinji spends his time between running errands around with Kensuke and going back to the ruins to stay alone, literally the only three times where they actually exchange words are when he first came out of his catatonia (she asks if the running away is over, and when he answers by the affirmative she tells him to go help Kensuke), later when she asks if Rei Q was well (implying that she knew that Rei Q would soon die) and in the Wunder when she asks him if he thought about why she wanted to punch him, and none of those exchanges lasted more than two phrases, even in their final scene together in Instrumentality it was Shinji who was doing all the talking. Hell Shinji and Asuka exchange more words in Q than in Shin!

This is why I'm convinced that he remembers the EoE timeline at this point & that's where this is coming from (especially given his relative non-reaction to her earlier confession); He's saying what he wished he had said instead on the beach, or like, apologizing & in that sense I actually kinda like it.
Though you could also picture that since he thinks he's about to die, he's just telling her what she wants to hear - though I think it's the meta reading that makes the most sense. If there was some parallel universe where your childhood crush liked you back, wouldn't you kinda want to know?
It's less about romance than making up all the (real & perceived) failures towards her; the movie was supposed to wrap up the whole franchise- I agree that they chose at this point to make the rebuilds less of/ not fully work as a standalone thing, but the same could be said of the 'statue scene' with Kaworu where Shinji directly references previous meetings.

That doesn't make sense, since it's hammered by the movies themselves and the VAs and the directors that Soryu and Shikinami are two different characters, so Shinji would be saying "I loved you, but not actually you, the other girl from another universe that looked like you"? That would reduce NTE!Asuka to a simple stand-in for NGE!Asuka, which would be odd after Shin showing us her personal philosophy and past that's revealed to be radically different than Soryu's.

I'll say once again that the loss Misato's significance to the story pains me the most. Easily my favorite character right up there with Asuka. She was completely cannibalized by Mari.

Mari only got some of her interaction with Shinji, but nowhere close to her depth in NGE at all.

I don't even see how Mari could had taken any of Misato's significance to the story compared to NGE, since literally the only thing she does toward him bringing him to the Minus Space for his final battle and extracting him out of it once said battle is over.

[Blockio]

Yeah, claiming that Mari somehow "cannibalized Misato's importance" is a strawman if I've ever seen one.

[Konja7]

Did they thought? I mean I thought that Asuka would follow the same pattern of Misato in Jo, Rei in Ha and Kaworu in Q to be the deuteragonist to Shinji and "mentor" to him about the theme of their respective movie through their talks and conversations

I would say Asuka is still the deuteragonist in Shin, since she is the character (apart from Shinji) who has a level of relevance on all parts of the movie.

That said, it's true that Asuka's role in Shin is more independent from Shinji than previous deutersgonists.

[ElMariachi]

I would say Asuka is still the deuteragonist in Shin, since she is the character (apart from Shinji) who has a level of relevance on all parts of the movie.

That said, it's true that Asuka's role in Shin is more independent from Shinji than previous deutersgonists.

Yeah, I should had precised that I was talking of the aspect of her relationship with Shinji, she clearly has a lot of pent-up emotions toward him and a lot to say (the possibility of their interactions was the source of a ton of speculation between Q and Shin), yet almost nothing happens during part A, when she had nothing else to do (and did nothing).
Of course once she's back in the Wunder she has more pressing matters.