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Magami No ER [ANF]
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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

Presumably his mother's. The souls of Shinji's class mothers are stored for future core replacments for Evas, if need be.

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 07:25 PM

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

Ornette wrote:Would you consider this creation?

Well, yeah, it "constructs" something (methinks that's a more applicable word than "creates"), but as I mentioned above, all it seems to do is somehow play a part in making everyone go "squish" (unless some other purpose is hinted at which I've missed): one could argue that it helps "create" the single being or whatever that Seele was after, but of course it has to destroy all the pre-existing individual beings first. It is "creation" of a sort, but more along the lines of "rearranging" than making something "from scratch" (which, presumably, would have been what happened when Adam and Lilith created their respective offspring) ,as it were.

CanonRAP wrote:Well, it's usually taken out before someone gets pregnant, eh? [/random idiocy]

I KNEW someone was gonna say that. Image

a tool has two uses; what someone uses it for, and what it is supposed to be used for

That's always a possibility, I suppose, but methinks once you get to the point of trying to figure out what its "originally-intended use" might have been, you're in largely speculative territory...again, though, I might be ignorant of some in-series hint or other that's already been discussed.

You mean Arael, right?

Doh, you're right. *smacks self*

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 07:25 PM

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Postby CanonRAP [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:one could argue that it helps "create" the single being or whatever that Seele was after, but of course it has to destroy all the pre-existing individual beings first. It is "creation" of a sort, but more along the lines of "rearranging" than making something "from scratch" (which, presumably, would have been what happened when Adam and Lilith created their respective offspring) ,as it were.


I had always just assumed that all SoL's carried around a 'blueprint' for their creations, and just needs a catalyst to...implant them with something, or whatever. But I'm just pretty much treading water at this point, so *shrug*.


I KNEW someone was gonna say that. Image


Always trust someone pre-18 to come up with a joke like that Image


That's always a possibility, I suppose, but methinks once you get to the point of trying to figure out what its "originally-intended use" might have been, you're in largely speculative territory...again, though, I might be ignorant of some in-series hint or other that's already been discussed.


Well, like I said, it's just a paraphrase from somewhere else (His Dark Materials series, FYI). I suppose the "WTF does the Spear do, exactly?" discussion hasn't been actually, um, discussed yet. Unless I missed something, too.

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 08:11 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

Ornette wrote:Would you consider this creation?


Considering said union results in something Fuyutsuki calls "the Embryo of Lives" (the word used is inochi, "life" in the sense of "my life will end today"), there is clearly something peculiar going on...

StuffMan, I wouldn't get too fixated on the Spear's destructive functions. Funny as it may sound, there is in fact nothing "contradicting" about something capable of bringing life being equally capable of taking it away. This is a thematic archetype as ancient as the human mind, and clearly present in NGE with the Spear's two "partners": Lilith -- who first creates one form of Terran life, and then later initiates an anti-genesis -- and then the heiress who runs off with it. (The line "Will she be the ark that saves humanity from the nothingness of Third Impact, or the demon that destroys us all?" comes to mind.)

Another vivid example in anime that I always think of is the Shishigami in "Princess Mononoke": As ve walks, foliage at once springs from the ground and wilts away, and this forest kami later becomes a massive entity of death which, upon falling, makes the landscape once again green. The "bringer of life and death" theme is ultimately nested in religion, AFAIK. ("The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away." Sorry if I'm using that wrong. Image )

I should also point out that, unless there is something XBOX HUEG that I've missed, the Spear isn't restraining Lilith at all, and is in fact what gives her the energy to regenerate: She has been missing her lower body for approximately a decade, and lying around doing absolutely nothing ever since her soul was salvaged into a Lilim-shaped vessel. The Spear was placed into her circa #14, and IMMEDIATELY after it's pulled out in #22' she undergoes regeneration. I take it you missed the discussion regarding the Spear being Lilith's answer to a Super Solenoid?

That this regeneration also produces a large belly seems like a fairly blatant visual hint of some kind, which ultimately needs to be factored into the grand scheme.

On a final note (for now), I think you're holding NGE to a somewhat stingy definition of "female" and turning the issue into one of personal semantics. The nature of the Evas/Seeds is so heavily reinforced that it's one of the last things that should be an issue at this point.

EDIT:

CanonRAP wrote:I believe in another thread, it was pointed out that the Spear(s) may play a part in creating life; namely, by penetrating/merging with the Core.


The core or chest region is involved in all three sexy examples, although for it to act as a fertilization device it'd obviously need to spread influence to more distant places... The Spear of Longinus does have that double-coil shape -- which has been associated with the S2, but it's also the form of DNA, the thread of life -- and more importantly it's an organism that can be cloned, so, just in the name of Blatant Speculation, how could this conceivably work?

Well... there was that weird line in #21' about 'diving genes', which result in the creation of you-know-who. While said genes were by all indications from... that guy, and not a big pointy phallic thing, it does establish a precedent, doesn't it?

(Kudos for the withdrawal comment, BTW. I actually hadn't thought of it like that at all! Image )

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 08:39 PM

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Postby Miduki [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

Magami No ER wrote:The souls of Shinji's class mothers are stored for future core replacments for Evas, if need be.


What? When did their mother's die?

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 10:42 PM

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

Miduki wrote:What? When did their mother's die?
All the potential pilots are gathered together for safekeeping in Shinji's class. We're told outright that Kensuke has lost his mother, and it is strongly implied that Toji and Hikari are motherless as well. When Toji is chosen as Unit-03's pilot, Ritsuko mentions that a suitable (for Toji specifically, that is) core can be prepared immediately. This seems to imply that his mother's soul has somehow been kept around until needed for this nefarious purpose.

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 10:53 PM

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

Reichu wrote:Considering said union results in something Fuyutsuki calls "the Embryo of Lives" (the word used is inochi, "life" in the sense of "my life will end today"), there is clearly something peculiar going on...

Okay, but wasn't the whole idea of 3I to combine all the individual souls/life forces/consciousnesses/whatevers into a single, supposedly "perfect" being, as was mentioned previously? As such, I'm more under the impression that whatever the spear is doing there is merely returning all life to "the womb" from whence it came, as it were, since humanity, at least, came from Lilith, and now it's headed back into GNR. In keeping with your statement that I quote next, I suppose it's possible that the thing is responsible for both somehow getting all the individual souls to Earth as well as taking them back, but is there any "hard" evidence that this is the case?

Funny as it may sound, there is in fact nothing "contradicting" about something capable of bringing life being equally capable of taking it away.

Well, yeah, that much is true, though just because it's one possibility of many doesn't mean it must be applicable. Image

She has been missing her lower body for approximately a decade, and lying around doing absolutely nothing ever since her soul was salvaged into a Lilim-shaped vessel. The Spear was placed into her circa #14, and IMMEDIATELY after it's pulled out in #22' she undergoes regeneration.

You know, for some reason I completely overlooked that...I do find it a bit weird, though, that she doesn't actually begin to regrow until the thing is removed. I guess that threw me off...that, and the fact that the boys at Gainax apparently neglected to add that bit in until the NPC. In addition, Adam was found with it stuck through him (sorry, force of habit), right? There's no evidence, to the best of my knowledge, that anything happened when they took it out of him and hauled it off to the Dead Sea (IIRC)...in fact, didn't he "revive" only when they tried to put the thing back into him? Really weird stuff...

I take it you missed the discussion regarding the Spear being Lilith's answer to a Super Solenoid...?

I glimpsed it, but didn't read it in depth...did you discuss whether or not Adam would have somehow already had a SS (but not Lilith), and why? That interests me...not to mention how he ended up with the spear in the first place.

That this regeneration also produces a large belly seems like a fairly blatant visual hint of some kind, which clearly needs to be factored into the grand scheme.

IIRC, they missed that one in the original series and added it in the NPC as well, right? Not that this makes it any less valid, but I do wonder how Gainax managed to miss all this stuff the first time around...even I don't think I can chalk that one up to the limited budget. Image

On a final note (for now), I think you're holding NGE to a somewhat stingy definition of "female" and turning the issue into one of personal semantics. The nature of the Evas/Seeds is so heavily reinforced that it's one of the last things that should be an issue at this point.

I don't mean to turn this into a semantics discussion, certainly, but I suppose you're right about me sticking to a rather limited defintion of "female"...I guess I just figure, how far removed from that idea can you get until what you're talking about isn't "female" anymore? In Kaworu's case, in particular, it's been pointed out that "ve" is referred to as a "boy," has a distinctly "male" body type, and possibly other things I've overlooked (offhand, was his Japanese VA male or female?), but due to an odd (and highly debatable) look in the shower from Shinji and an open (and highly debatable) crotch shot, he becomes "female" (not even "androgynous," or some such thing, but strictly "female"). Of course, there's all this other background stuff I'm currently attempting to sort through (and catch up on) here, but I'm hesitant to be too stretchy in my perceptions of stuff until I see more stuff...and stuff. Is there a thread which provides a "digest version" of the whole Eva/Seed thing? I could probably use a refresher...

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 11:34 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:Okay, but wasn't the whole idea of 3I to combine all the individual souls/life forces/consciousnesses/whatevers into a single, supposedly "perfect" being, as was mentioned previously? As such, I'm more under the impression that whatever the spear is doing there is merely returning all life to "the womb" from whence it came, as it were, since humanity, at least, came from Lilith, and now it's headed back into GNR. In keeping with your statement that I quote next, I suppose it's possible that the thing is responsible for both somehow getting all the individual souls to Earth as well as taking them back, but is there any "hard" evidence that this is the case?


Whatever the heck the Spear is doing in 3I, it is poorly understood at the absolute best and needs to be reconsidered from scratch. Here's why.

In the scene where EVA-01 fuses with it and produces the ToL, Fuyutsuki says, "The Fruit of Life held by Angels, and the Fruit of Knowledge held by humans. Having possessed them both, Evangelion Unit 01 has become an existence equal to a god. And now, she is restoring the Tree of Life, the embryo of lives. Will she become the ark that saves humanity from the nothingness of Third Impact, or the demon that destroys us all?"

Jam-packed with information. One of the more enigmatic parts is the concept of the Tree of Life being restored -- that means it existed once before.

Been holding off on this one for a while... Shin-seiki found this when doing a screencap mission for me, and he basically gave me permission to unveil it. Now seems like an opportune time, especially since Dr. Scott alluded directly to this finding within the past couple of days. Image

DEATH, the overhauled Wings of Light scene. Here's the very first frame of the shot.

Image

Notice anything? To quote sempai (hope you don't mind):

Shin-seiki wrote:Woah! What the hell is that in the top left corner?!

Image

It seems like it should be some sort of secret clue, being there for just one frame, you know? Anyway, I know this doesn't make any sense really, but the first thing that flashed in my mind when I noticed it was that it looked like a bit like the twiggy end of the Tree of Life in #26'.


(More coming...)

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 02:45 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

I was professedly incredulous in the "WTF?" sort of way at first, until...

Image

Image

Image Image

And then, once I "admitted defeat"...

Shin-seiki wrote:I can only say that the connection wasn't something I had to consciously think about, rather it just popped into my head as a sort of 'right brain' intuition. A lot of NGE works that way, and consequently people that insist on everything being spelled out for them are never going to get anywhere in terms of truly understanding what is going on. Also, the fact, that what may be a crucial clue to what was really going in 2I should be hidden as an obscure image that is around for one frame Image, really puts the lie to those claims that Anno-tachi never intended for us to examine the series so closely; this thingy is something that is revealed only when one is step-framing thru the cut, and, needless to say, it didn't draw itself, it was put there deliberately as a clue.


"I bow down to thee."

Anyway, have fun getting your brain around that one, cuz I sure haven't! (Unless any clarity of thought in bordering territory counts.)

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 02:50 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

StuffMan wrote:You know, for some reason I completely overlooked that...I do find it a bit weird, though, that she doesn't actually begin to regrow until the thing is removed. I guess that threw me off...that, and the fact that the boys at Gainax apparently neglected to add that bit in until the NPC.


I don't know what the reasoning behind it is, either, but that's just how it goes... It's hard to say why certain elements don't show until the NPC -- OA vs. NPC is an interesting glimpse into a combination of the creative process, production pressures, and various unknowns. (The Shinji/Asuka dynamic isn't even fleshed out in those episodes until Take Two.)

In addition, Adam was found with it stuck through him (sorry, force of habit), right?


<AIM>Kaworu calls Adam a "mother", thereby negating the possibility of maleness.</AIM>

There's no evidence, to the best of my knowledge, that anything happened when they took it out of him and hauled it off to the Dead Sea (IIRC)...in fact, didn't he "revive" only when they tried to put the thing back into him? Really weird stuff...


Where does this idea that they were poking Adam with the Spear come from? From what I can determine, the underlying factor beneath Adam's reawakening is her S^2 Engine going into artificial overdrive (--> Giant of Light + Kaboom), as a result of Dr. K and company putzing around with it for the CE. The Spear is, in fact, not mentioned in the UN video until ten minutes after things start going wrong:
Old Man G (left) "The Spear! Pull the Spear back!"
Man H (left � speakers) "It's no good! We can't maintain the magnetic field!"
Man I (right) "It's sinking in!"
...with flashy stuff happening off-screen. Regarding the matter, NGE2 (in one of those entries I haven't actually posted the translation for yet -- uhhh, maybe after I get some sleep) says that the Katsuragi Team attempted to 'seal' Adam with the Spear again, but failed. (Which is rather ambiguous.)

I glimpsed it, but didn't read it in depth...did you discuss whether or not Adam would have somehow already had a SS (but not Lilith), and why? That interests me...not to mention how he ended up with the spear in the first place.


The Super Solenoid Engine (or organ, really) is a physical manifestation of the Fruit of Life, which Lilith does not have. (And, accordingly, Evas don't have S2s because they haven't gotten their souls from Adam.) And... I'm really glad I finally wrote this: Duel of the Seeds.

I don't mean to turn this into a semantics discussion, certainly, but I suppose you're right about me sticking to a rather limited defintion of "female"...I guess I just figure, how far removed from that idea can you get until what you're talking about isn't "female" anymore?


I never saw it as being at all removed from the idea in the first place... Is there anything internal to the show that suggests this isn't the creators' intention to the fullest?

In Kaworu's case, in particular, it's been pointed out that "ve" is referred to as a "boy," has a distinctly "male" body type, and possibly other things I've overlooked (offhand, was his Japanese VA male or female?)


Male, but that doesn't innately mean a thing. :cough:Shinji:cough: Females voicing males seems a lot more common, but the inverse is definitely not unheard of. The most relevant example that comes to mind is Moro of (yeah, again) "Princess Mononoke", who has a couple of things in common with Kaworu, come to think of it... :randomly musing:

(On a totally random side note, when I somehow managed to see the "Sailor Moon" episodes with Fisheye, I would never have guessed, initially, that the voice was Akira Ishida's doing -- he sounded just like a woman to my ears. :snork: )

And, again, "distinctly male body type" loses pretty much all meaning when you're in a show with females who claim the somatotype for themselves and dealing with a entity who is part of the same bloodline as they.

but due to an odd (and highly debatable) look in the shower from Shinji and an open (and highly debatable) crotch shot, he becomes "female" (not even "androgynous," or some such thing, but strictly "female").


What gives you the impression that "femme-Kaworu" is somehow based merely on those two elements? :Spock eyebrow:

Plus... when it comes to Kaworu, isn't "highly debatable" sort of a given? :wink:

Is there a thread which provides a "digest version" of the whole Eva/Seed thing? I could probably use a refresher...


By "Eva/Seed thing", are you referring to ovarian matters? Image

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 02:52 AM

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

Reichu wrote:Been holding off on this one for a while... Shin-seiki found this when doing a screencap mission for me, and he basically gave me permission to unveil it. Now seems like an opportune time, especially since Dr. Scott alluded directly to this finding within the past couple of days. Image

DEATH, the overhauled Wings of Light scene. Here's the very first frame of the shot.

Image

Notice anything? To quote sempai (hope you don't mind)

wow, that's an awesome find, Shin-seiki. To tell the truth, I recognized it right away, since earlier I was making an animated gif of Eva-01 merging with the spear and turning into the ToL (removed the actualy ToL shots because gif was getting too big) and had been staring at the root-like structure frame by frame.

Could this allude to the ToL being "constructed" during 2I? Since this was only in 1 frame, I'd assume that it wasn't actually in the sky off the screen. Perhaps when Adam went was blown to bits, so was the ToL, thus it being "restored" during 3I. Maybe this is also why they refered to Adam as kami.

(could this be why you were so interested in getting a full frame dump of the episodes?)

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 04:16 AM

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

Reichu wrote:I asked Mr. Tines once about what would theoretically happen to that ring, and he said, "The ring is in low orbit, so [it] would dissipate in years at most." So by "dissipating", where exactly does it go?


To expand - with GNR being about 1-200 km tall, material streamed into orbit at that altitude will be affected by atmospheric drag (especially during episodes of high solar activity), and will eventually fall to Earth - it could burn up, remain as stratospheric dust, or land in lumps, or some combination of the above, depending on the material.

Reichu wrote:Giant Naked Kaworu starts off with some "conveniently placed" clouds, as per the standard. Following the tradition of "compositional censorship", right?


As opposed to the equal-opportunity tradition of "invisible anime genitalia" (like the male shower scene in ep 1 or 2 of Zaion).

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 12:42 PM

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

Heh heh, I have indeed invoked the Wrath of Chu. Image Lemme see if there's anything left to salvage...

Reichu wrote:And now, she is restoring the Tree of Life, the embryo of lives. Will she become the ark that saves humanity from the nothingness of Third Impact, or the demon that destroys us all?"

I find this part particularly wonky...what exactly is involved in the "saving" or "destroying" of humanity, as spoken of here? Offhand I can't think of any alternatives that the series hints at to the "Tang-ification" that occurs in EoE...what other possible "things an Impact can do" are supported by hard evidence (further, Tang-ification doesn't really "erase" anything [aside from everyone's individuality], but rather combines everything into one single thing: is this what he means by "destroying?" Or is there an even bleaker possibility that would be prevented by everyone being "preserved" in GNR)? If, as I further quote/discuss below, a Tree of Life (or something similar) appeared during 2I in Antarctica, back there, IIRC, everyone nearby ('cept Misato, anyways) was similarly Tang-ified...and then what? Somehow we ended up with, as "direct" end products of 2I, a) Adam in shrimp form, b) the Lance somehow left over separately, c) Kaworu, and d) a whole lotta Tang. But if this occurrence was similar to 3I as seen in EoE, when the people went "squish," where'd their souls go? Was there some type of "vessel" present which they were taken into, similar to GNR/the black moon/something else? Also, why'd it only "directly" affect those close by, and not the whole world, as in EoE? I'm sure this has been discussed to some extent before, but as usual, I have catching up to do...

Been holding off on this one for a while... Shin-seiki found this when doing a screencap mission for me...

Seeing as I haven't done anything resembling a frame-by-frame analysis of the series I obviously hadn't seen that before, and it definitely does bear a resemblance to the branchy stuff on the ToL...as was said, though, obviously only the truly hard-core would ever likely find it (is a single frame even visible to the human eye without slowing the frame speed down?) I definitely see it as a possible "hint," but it's VERY subtle...I have to say that I find it odd that Anno, who openly states his dislike for the "otaku" culture which devotes so much (too much, in his opinion) of itself to anime and the like, would require such a huge amount of careful analyzation and background research to even begin to get to the bottom of this issue...I'm sort of on the fence here, but for the sake of this discussion I'll assume that it's a legitimate hint, for now.

Kaworu calls Adam a "mother", thereby negating the possibility of maleness.

I believe I already stated my possible "issue" with this line some time earlier...what I wonder is whether Kaworu uses the term "mother" here in a similar manner to the English phrases "mother earth" or "mother country," wherein an actual gender is not being suggested, but rather a characteristic associated with one gender or the other (in this case, directly "giving birth" to new life/being the origin of something). I don't know Japanese so I don't know whether that sort of phrasing is possible/common in that language, but that was the first thing that popped into my head when I heard that line...

Where does this idea that they were poking Adam with the Spear come from?

If I recall the "pre-2I timeline" correctly, first they found the Adam-kebab in the local grocery's freezer aisle, then they removed the spear (after presenting free Clipper coupon for the "Complimentary Artifact" limited-time offer) and shipped it off to the Dead Sea (I forget whether we ever figured out exactly what they did to it), and then brought it back to Antarctica, where they were fiddling around with Adam in some way or another. I always interpreted the "pull the spear back!" line to suggest that they were trying to poke him with it again, and attempted (unsuccessfully) to withdraw it when he suddenly awoke...I honestly can't think of another reason why they would have even had it there, if not to somehow re-initiate contact between the two...maybe that's the "re-sealing" you mention? Once again, though, if other plausible stuff has been discussed which I've missed, lay it on me.

The Super Solenoid Engine (or organ, really) is a physical manifestation of the Fruit of Life, which Lilith does not have. (And, accordingly, Evas don't have S2s because they haven't gotten their souls from Adam.)

Do you have any links to quotations from the show/other official sources which mention/elaborate on this stuff? Offhand I've forgotten them...

Duel of the Seeds.

Hmm...the thing about both SoL's (note to self: they, apparently, are what the whole "seed" thing refers to, which confused my tiny brain earlier) each having their own Spear got my attention...where'd Adam's go after he did not pass "Go" and collect 200$? Also, has it ever been determined where his few offspring (the shito) were hanging out for all that time?

I never saw it as being at all removed from the idea in the first place... Is there anything internal to the show that suggests this isn't the creators' intention to the fullest?

As I said, obviously there are plenty of feminine characteristics/allusions present in all of this, and I don't deny those, certainly: however, again, I find it difficult to pinpoint exactly where the, by its nature, rather strict definition of "female" should end and the more open "androgynous" or "gender-neutral" or the like should begin...I guess you're right in saying that, when you get right down to it, this is something of a semantics discussion, and thus not all that important, but I'm still balking at calling something purely "female" when it does not have purely female characteristics (note the "mother earth" stuff I said above...people often describe the earth as something feminine in nature, for the aforementioned reasons, but does that make it correct to call it "female," somehow?). "Female-like," or "feminine," or something along those lines, sure. But a hard-and-fast "female" still seems a bit of a stretch to me. If worst comes to worst, we can "agree to disagree" on this one, methinks...as I mentioned, it's not all that vital, and in any event, pretty much everyone else already takes your side in this. Image

And, again, "distinctly male body type" loses pretty much all meaning when you're in a show with females who claim the somatotype for themselves and dealing with a entity who is part of the same bloodline as they.

My brain's not quite following here, my apologies...again, though, I'm mainly referring to the obvious shift in body type between GNK and GNR, as displayed in the GIF you posted...Kaworu just plain doesn't look female in that respect, and the difference in body type was plainly meant to be obvious during the "metamorph" there. As for the crotch shot...

Mr. Tines wrote:As opposed to the equal-opportunity tradition of "invisible anime genitalia"...

...that was more along the lines of the impression it gave me, rather than some sort of unprecedented revelation. But time will tell.

What gives you the impression that "femme-Kaworu" is somehow based merely on those two elements? :Spock eyebrow:

Well, as I said, there's all this other related background stuff I'm currently attempting to sort through, but those two things were the main "direct" evidence you presented to make your case there, IIRC...

Plus... when it comes to Kaworu, isn't "highly debatable" sort of a given? :wink:

Heh, can't argue with that. Image

Phew, longest post I've made here (or anywhere, really) in ages...time to change my address again...

Originally posted on: 06.04.2006, 11:16 PM

BigBet [ANF]
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Postby BigBet [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

Well, off hand, the biggest difference between 2I and 3I that comes to mind is that 3I involved the "forbidden union of Lilith and Adam". Maybe a single SoL isn't powerful enough to tang-ify the whole globe... or maybe Dr. K and co. were able to limit the effects of 2I somehow... afterall, there wasn't anyone attempting to stop 3I once it got started.

Actually, come to think of it, I would have thought (if it weren't for that above quote) that 3rd Impact never needed Lilith in the first place - all you'd need is Adam + his S^2 organ + t3h Spear. And Gendo just planned to use Lilith as a host body for Adam (presuming you need an adult SoL to carry out Instrumentality).
What was SEELE trying to do anyway? They were planning to use EVA-01 with t3h Spear. (Which is why Gendo tries to get rid of it. The Spear, not the Eva) But then EVA-01 would need a power source... so why'd they get pissed when she cannibalized Zeruel's S^2 organ? Image

Of course, wat happened in the end was:
Adam (with S^2) + Lilith + EVA-01 (with S^2) + Spear (+ Harpies with their S^2's ?)
So why were the council members so happy? This is *not* what they had planned, right?

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 01:49 AM

Mr. Tines [ANF]
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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:what I wonder is whether Kaworu uses the term "mother" here in a similar manner to the English phrases "mother earth" or "mother country," wherein an actual gender is not being suggested


Though the personifications (Britannia, Gaia ... ) have definite gender.

On IAG

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:...that was more along the lines of the impression it gave me, rather than some sort of unprecedented revelation. But time will tell.


OTOH, to argue against myself, the IAG phenomenon is usually associated with a complete lack of linework between navel and mid-thigh, save the silhouette outline.

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 02:31 AM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

BigBet wrote:Maybe a single SoL isn't powerful enough to tang-ify the whole globe... or maybe Dr. K and co. were able to limit the effects of 2I somehow...

Man N (right) "Even if it's only for point one seconds, get it to use up as much of its Anti A.T. Field energy as possible!"
...perhaps?

Actually, come to think of it, I would have thought (if it weren't for that above quote) that 3rd Impact never needed Lilith in the first place - all you'd need is Adam + his S^2 organ + t3h Spear. And Gendo just planned to use Lilith as a host body for Adam (presuming you need an adult SoL to carry out Instrumentality).

What was SEELE trying to do anyway? They were planning to use EVA-01 with t3h Spear. (Which is why Gendo tries to get rid of it. The Spear, not the Eva)


I don't think so...
Episode #22

IKARI:
Rei, go down into Dogma and use the Lance.

FUYUTSUKI:
The Lance of Longinus?!
Ikari, that is...

IKARI:
We cannot reach the target's AT Field in orbit, and that's the only
way to bring it down.
Hurry!

*****

FUYUTSUKI:
Ikari, are we not getting ahead of ourselves?

IKARI:
The Committee has already started mass-producing the Eva series.
This is our chance.

FUYUTSUKI:
But this is...

IKARI:
We cannot turn back time, but we do have the power to spur it onward.

FUYUTSUKI:
The old men will not stand for this!

IKARI:
We must finish everything before Seele begins to act.
It would be unwise for us to lose Unit-02 right now.

FUYUTSUKI:
That may be, but using the Lance of Longinus without Seele's
permission will be troublesome.

IKARI:
A reason need only exist. Anything beyond that is insignificant.

FUYUTSUKI:
A reason? What you're looking for is an excuse, isn't it?

Episode #24

Ikari "The time remaining to us is short."
Ikari "But the Spear of Longinus that would hinder our wishes is already gone."
Ikari "Soon the final Angel will appear. Once it is vanquished, our hopes will come true."
Ikari "Just a little longer, Yui."
Episode #25'

Keel "The promised time has come. With the Spear of Longinus lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible. Our only hope is to proceed with Eva Unit 01, Lilith's alter ego."
Ikari (behind) "While different from Seele's scenario��"
Fuyutsuki "Humanity has existed in order to create Eva."
Ikari "People should advance to a new world."
Ikari (behind) "That is the purpose of the Eva Series.
09 "We have no intention of casting aside human form simply to board the Ark called Eva."
012 "This is a rite of passage� so that humanity will no longer be sealed off from rebirth."
"The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth."
"�so that we may become as one through the 'death' of gods, people, and all other life."
Ikari "Death gives birth to nothing."
Keel "Then death is what we shall give you."
Get rid of Spear, your wife is elevated to "necessary" status by Seele at the end of all things and gets inducted into the 3I ceremony. (Then she just goes and summons the original Spear anyway, making her ol' buddy Kozo go "WTF?!?" and everyone at Seele go "Yippity skippity!".)

But then EVA-01 would need a power source... so why'd they get pissed when she cannibalized Zeruel's S^2 organ? Image


Cuz she went and did it on her own.

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 11:27 AM

BigBet [ANF]
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Postby BigBet [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

Ah.. that makes a lot more sense.
So since, Spear + SoL (1 possible combination) = Tree of Life , Yui summons the Spear back - since she'll need it to seed a new world? Maybe the ToL is used to fill up the CoGuF with new souls.
And SEELE needed the Spear to use on Lilith for the other possible combo... Spear + SoL = Tangifier, as in 2I.
Then how does the ToL show up in 2I? Doesn't the Spear have to combine with a SoL for that? And the only SoL in the pic is nowhere near the ToL.

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 12:06 PM

HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]
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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Though the personifications (Britannia, Gaia ... ) have definite gender.

Well, yeah, but as you say, those are just the personifications, fictional manifestations of feminine characteristics, not the actual subjects themselves.

Methinks my onslaught of stupidity might have finally burned poor Reichu out...unless she's already on her way here to firebomb my house...

Originally posted on: 06.05.2006, 11:12 PM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:Methinks my onslaught of stupidity might have finally burned poor Reichu out...unless she's already on her way here to firebomb my house...


Not without looting it and stealing your Saturn and "Panzer Dragoon Saga" first. Image

Yes, the conversation was degenerating into Hyper-BTDT territory -- energies would be better spent organizing the abundant preexisting material into a permapage for FGC or something. Human sacrifices who want to do the bulk of the work instead of me are always welcome. Image

But just FYI, I'm not aware of anything that suggests that sort of English/Japanese divergence for the term "mother". The interpretation seems rather counterintuitive anyway, least of all considering the rather tried-and-true "Take everything at face value unless given adequate reason to do otherwise".

Regarding Anno and otaku -- do you have any citations handy?

BigBet wrote:So since, Spear + SoL (1 possible combination) = Tree of Life , Yui summons the Spear back - since she'll need it to seed a new world?


Clearly she needs it for Seed duties, since she takes it with her at the end... but summoning it is also more or less her first move after blowing out of Nerv HQ, implying that she needs it for the festivities that must come beforehand.

Maybe the ToL is used to fill up the CoGuF with new souls.


There seems to be SOME relationship between the two, at least... (Damned ellipses. Bad habit picked up from Shin-seiki. You know that they can't be trusted, right?)

And SEELE needed the Spear to use on Lilith for the other possible combo... Spear + SoL = Tangifier, as in 2I.


Just FYI, Lilith doesn't seem to involve the ToL in 3I until AFTER Tangification has occurred. The Spear's involvement in 2I is also still rather ambiguous. I personally don't think, ATM, that the Spear plays any role in the AATF/Resetting Life stuff -- also recall that Sachiel through Ireul 'invaded' before there was even a Spear available, and we know that at least some of the Apostles were interested in initiating an Impact (perhaps pull a stunt like Adam's, only on a global level).

Then how does the ToL show up in 2I? Doesn't the Spear have to combine with a SoL for that? And the only SoL in the pic is nowhere near the ToL.


Not only nowhere near it, but also 'sploded. "This demonstrates just how limited our understanding really is."

I'll say at least one thing right now, though: It probably has a lot to do with the Apostles.

Originally posted on: Yesterday, 12:13 AM

HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]
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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

Reichu wrote:Not without looting it and stealing your Saturn and "Panzer Dragoon Saga" first. Image

Noooooo! Kill me instead!

(hee hee, I'm getting flashbacks of that "Spongebob" episode where Mr. Krabs would rather be eaten by the local gigantic invading worm than pay someone to get rid of it..."I'd rather that worm would come in here RIGHT now and eat you all aliiiiive!" *foams at mouth*)

Yes, the conversation was degenerating into Hyper-BTDT territory...

I'm not familiar with that acronym, and honestly I'm afraid to ask...in truth, though, honestly I'm not doing all this to bust your chops or anything, but trying to clarify some stuff that I haven't had time to inquire into recently (i.e., during this past semester)...apologies once again for being so behind the times, so to speak, but I am truly trying to sort through all this stuff...

The interpretation seems rather counterintuitive anyway, least of all considering the rather tried-and-true "Take everything at face value unless given adequate reason to do otherwise".

I thought that Eva, of all things, was one of those things where NOTHING ought to be taken immediately at face value (Kaworu being called a "boy," among other things Image).

Regarding Anno and otaku -- do you have any citations handy?

Hmm...the one that comes most immediately to mind is the "You're a fool. Study harder" incident (plus the infamous "Too bad!" if that counts)...there are also the last few remarks in the Tsurumaki interview in the RCB...

- Now even businessmen are debating the mysteries of "Eva" in bars. (laugh)
KT - (laugh) For example, Hideaki Anno says that, "Anime fans are too introverted, and need to get out more." Further, he should be happy that non-anime fans are watching his work, right? But when all is said and done, Hideaki Anno's comments on "Evangelion" + "Evangelion" are that it is a message aimed at anime fans including himself, and of course, me too. In other words, it's useless for non-anime fans to watch it. If a person who can already live and communicate normally watches it, they won't learn anything.

-- But, don't all the people watching "Evangelion" now actually have this type of anime-fan complex? Doesn't everyone share some feelings of uneasiness at not being able to get along with the world.
KT - Yes, maybe that's so. Hideaki Anno's statements certainly are true when looking at the small circle of anime fans, but stepping back and looking at the much wider circle of Japanese people in general, we may find many of the same types of problems. They're not problems specific to just anime fans.

-- Finally, do you have some message for the fans?
KT - Don't drag the past around. Find the next thing that interests you.

-- Does that mean not becoming fixated on "Evangelion"?
KT - Yes. It's always better to let something that has finished end.


I also recall, someplace in the back of my head, that at some point Anno said that he used to be an "otaku" as he describes, and that this was part of what led to the depression that he suffered while making Evangelion, though the series ended up helping him to work through it...I forget exactly where I saw that, but I'll try to find it...if I do I'll toss it here.

Clearly she needs it for Seed duties, since she takes it with her at the end...

Hmm...for some reason that idea also eluded me. I guess that one line of hers kind of led me to believe that she intended to serve more as an eternal "monument that mankind once existed" or something like that...does the script mention anything about her heading off and serving as a "SoL" herself?

Just FYI, Lilith doesn't seem to involve the ToL in 3I until AFTER Tangification has occurred. The Spear's involvement in 2I is also still rather ambiguous. I personally don't think, ATM, that the Spear plays any role in the AATF/Resetting Life stuff --

I thought the ToL formed rather early on, before any of that stuff happened...people didn't start going "squish" until Shinji said "the heck with everyone." What was the ToL doing the rest of the time?

...also recall that Sachiel through Ireul 'invaded' before there was even a Spear available, and we know that at least some of the Apostles were interested in initiating an Impact (perhaps pull a stunt like Adam's, only on a global level).

I recall that there was some debate, for awhile, as to what the actual motives of the shito were...was it confirmed somewhere along the line that the "officially-stated" reason for their making regular visits to Tokyo-3 (intitiating 3I) was true, at least in some cases? Was there ever a consensus reached on the "maybe some of them were misled/confused" theory, such as Kaworu's (possibly) not knowing who/what was actually down there?

Originally posted on: Yesterday, 10:30 AM


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