Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

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Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:28 pm

How is one soul more powerful than another? I thought it was the equipment that the sould operated throught that determined its power.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 21:52 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:28 pm

Well, Rei's ATF is clearly more powerful than Kaworu's, as we can see in #24. (It's probably supposed to be a bit of a hint as to how this happened, too.) And it can also do some other really wacky things, like Quantum Magic. I guess ultimately, "Soul Power" would boil down to a number of factors. The important part is that Lilith is scary and Yui can kick most everyone's arse. Too bad we never get to see them engage in hand-to-hand combat.

</hazy>

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 22:11 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:28 pm

Reichu wrote:I suppose a precedent for what you propose would have already been set, in a sense, by what happens to Shinji in #20. But how on Earth would Yui have any power over a soul as ludicrously powerful as Lilith's, and what would the motivation be? Image


One possible motivation would be that, given her close ties to Seele, she knew of Kaworu and wanted to give Nerv a counterpart.

Originally posted on: 01-Mar-2006, 23:05 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:28 pm

Reichu wrote:I suppose a precedent for what you propose would have already been set, in a sense, by what happens to Shinji in #20. But how on Earth would Yui have any power over a soul as ludicrously powerful as Lilith's, and what would the motivation be? Image

Eh, Yui is persistent. Image

Originally posted on: 02-Mar-2006, 00:11 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:28 pm

thewayneiac wrote:One possible motivation would be that, given her close ties to Seele, she knew of Kaworu and wanted to give Nerv a counterpart.


The counterpart aspect of Rei and Kaworu is external/narrative. This doesn't provide a logical internal reason for why Yui herself would create Rei, as far as I can see.

And I'm sure Tabris/Kaworu was no secret to her. Vis creation was one of fundamentals of the Contact Experiment with Adam, after all. Even the poor suckers of the Katsuragi Team knew it was going to happen; they just didn't know how ugly things were going to get (in the roughly 36 minutes that followed) until it was too late.

Originally posted on: 02-Mar-2006, 00:13 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:30 pm

Reichu wrote:The counterpart aspect of Rei and Kaworu is external/narrative. This doesn't provide a logical internal reason for why Yui herself would create Rei, as far as I can see.

Maybe as something for Gendo to remember her by(Who Knows what Gendo would've done, given that....it's Gendo.)? He did far more with Rei though...wondered if Yui knew that that would happen?

Originally posted on: 02-Mar-2006, 00:16 GMT

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Postby Kokuei [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:30 pm

gendo did place his hand on Rei's breast for fan service. but also for another reason. Yui is the only one who ever loved him and stuff. Rei is her clone. he's just being perverted and imagining this fourteen year old girl is his wife.(already closely resembles yui) its my guess that the chemical in the Reiquarium and all the other orange goo in the series is LCL.

Rei has liliths soul and a manufactured body using the sort of eva/angel technology of LCL. if humans are made of LCL and lilith bleeds it, then why wouldn't Rei be held together by LCL and an AT field?

Originally posted on: 02-Mar-2006, 02:30 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:38 pm

Gratuitous bumpage for purposes of alleviating forum boredom. </dubious>

The forum has been awfully quiet, which makes me wonder. Any of you peeps still pondering this show? Things you still wondering about? What are the questions you're most interested in the answers (or next best thing) to? And I'm just talking about "internal to show" stuff, so none of that, "Did Anno intend for us to ask these questions in the first place?" grumbling. (Talk about questions that have no answers... :umImage

Okay, just a few of mine. (The list I typed is much longer, but I figured I'd start somewhere.)
What's the 'sample collection' that's referred to in #07?What's the deal with the writing on Adam's case? (It seems to say, "whoisman heiscrying why?")We know that Adam goes kablooie, so what's with the giant Wings of Light?Exactly HOW did Misato survive 2I, again?Why does Gendo go to the trouble of lying about Ireul, and why are Seele so upset about an Angel 'falling outside of [their] schedule'?

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 05:37 PM

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:38 pm

Reichu wrote:[*]Why does Gendo go to the trouble of lying about Ireul, and why are Seele so upset about an Angel 'falling outside of [their] schedule'?
This really is inexplicable; as thewayneiac likes to put it "Gendo is lying, and they (SEELE) know that he is lying, and he knows that they know that he is lying", and, sure enough, Iruel is listed as the 11th Angel in the "Angel Countdown" in #23.

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 06:37 PM

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:38 pm

So hard to ponder when there's too IDEON about!





~Waveleader~

Anyway, had orginally tried to answer more then one, but it would seem I'm no longer that able to ponder about I show I haven't seen in a while.
Reichu wrote:We know that Adam goes kablooie, so what's with the giant Wings of Light?

The Wings seem to form when matters of the soul doing something(emerging from dormancy perhaps), or At Field either expanding, or becoming inverted into an anti-AT-Field. Adam's Wings certainly seemed connnected to souls when she starts "kicking" 'em up in Death. Cousre those souls looked larger then they probabaly "are", but we needed the visual cue at the expense of relativity and accurate size's...much like the case for the Evas themselves.

Could they, even though Adam's being destroyed, have anything to do with the AT Field or soul or both being stirred in some way? For Adam, that stimulas was (engineered by humans )the Lance and the "First Contact" experiment, for Eva-02, the stimulas was Asuka and her "Contact" with her mom after hitting rock bottom(Kyouko-sama later dies in this "awakened state as everyone knows, as Adam was awakened when ceased to be), and for Eva-01, it was Shinji's "dire need for mental normalacy and Yui's motherly protecting instict which was the orginal stimulas....though these two wings form a cross shape, and look as if they are more ritually symbolic then anything...but the soul's is still stirring I guess.^^;
The other times we see them are the 12 "Lilith wings" that come out as a result of GNR's will, and eventually "passed" to Yui-sama, as you have said. I think they have a different meaning here, the most noticable for me probabaly being to show the audience a cool looking trasnition of events regarding how everyone starts 'ploding all the way to coming back to "life"...sorta.

[*]Why does Gendo go to the trouble of lying about Ireul, and why are Seele so upset about an Angel 'falling outside of [their] schedule'?[/list]

Anal? ^^;
Something I still ponder and would like to dicuss more in the future is the matter of the souls returning to the womb in EoE...some go into the Black Moon, others the vulvaish Doors of Guaff; possibly why there's a seperation shown here and all that stuff....

Edit: Spelling/Grammer mishaps. -.-

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 06:37 PM

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Postby Polaryzed_123 [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

[*]Why does Gendo go to the trouble of lying about Ireul, and why are Seele so upset about an Angel 'falling outside of [their] schedule'?[/list]
To me, SEELE was so upset because they wanted an accurate timeline. Even though they figured Gendo was lying, what if he wasn't? They didn't want to release things too late and miss the party, and they didn't want to jump the gun. The timing had to be just right in their minds. So an accurate timeline was essential for them to carry out their plan.

I dunno, maybe not. Maybe it was just SEELE's way of testing Gendo to see if he was trustworthy or not.

Reichu wrote:[*]We know that Adam goes kablooie, so what's with the giant Wings of Light?
This reminds me of a massive black hole (like a quasar) and the way that amid this massive implosion of mass and light there is a stream of high energy particles emitted straight out from the center like a jet. So maybe its a similar concept in Adam's explosion. Massive amounts of explosive energy producing a concentrated energy "wing". Just the first thing that came to mind. Image
Image
Image
Image

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 08:34 PM

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:This really is inexplicable; as thewayneiac likes to put it "Gendo is lying, and they (SEELE) know that he is lying, and he knows that they know that he is lying", and, sure enough, Iruel is listed as the 11th Angel in the "Angel Countdown" in #23.

Is Gendo doing this just to piss them off?

Magami No ER wrote:The Wings seem to form when matters of the soul doing something(emerging from dormancy perhaps), or At Field either expanding, or becoming inverted into an anti-AT-Field.

You know, I went through the scripts and checked for when they mention AATF, thinking that Leliel also had one, but I was wrong. Leliel had an inverted ATF, while the only mentions of an AATF are in the beginning of ep21' and ep26'. However, the direct relation to the wings isn't so clear:
ep21' wrote:
Male voice: Get it to use up as much of its Anti-AT Field as possible!





Male voice: The wings are spreading! It's going to surface!

So the AATF appears, then Adam sprouts wings.

ep26' wrote:Fuyutsuki:
An anti-AT Field...

(Eva series form into the Sephiroticum (Tree of Life))

Maya:
All the data are just like 15 years ago!



Makoto:
All Eva units - still active!

Shigeru:
The Anti-AT Field from Lilith... it's expanding further! It's materializing!

(The earth's surface under the Black Moon turns white spreading outwards
and Lilith-Rei emerges, cupping the Black Moon in her hands)

Soon after, Lilith sprouts wings.

hmm, coincidence?

Reichu wrote:Exactly HOW did Misato survive 2I, again?

Was some discussion a while ago about this right? Somewhere along the lines of the escape pods possibly having some sort of AATF dampening ability, going to take advantage of my newfound search abilities...

http://www.animenation.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=120828
starting at around: http://www.animenation.net/forums/s...53&postcount=87

http://www.animenation.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=158944

http://www.animenation.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=174825

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 09:56 PM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:This really is inexplicable; as thewayneiac likes to put it "Gendo is lying, and they (SEELE) know that he is lying, and he knows that they know that he is lying", and, sure enough, Iruel is listed as the 11th Angel in the "Angel Countdown" in #23.


Maybe they managed to extract that one out of Kozo.

Keel "Now, about that 11th Angel... Give us the beef, or else."
Kozo "Well, what do you think? Ikari is a lying sonuvabitch."
Nigel "Why would he lie about something so stupid?"
Kozo "I dunno lol."

But, for some reason, I feel inclined to dump this into that "might make sense eventually" bucket. Partly because the technicalities behind the 'scenario' and the 'schedule' (and their actual relationship to the SDSS) is still a rather fuzzy area, IMO, even though there are multiple references throughout the show.

Polaryzed123 wrote:To me, SEELE was so upset because they wanted an accurate timeline. Even though they figured Gendo was lying, what if he wasn't? They didn't want to release things too late and miss the party, and they didn't want to jump the gun. The timing had to be just right in their minds. So an accurate timeline was essential for them to carry out their plan.


What do you mean by "release"?

The timing aspect is a confusing one -- Seele didn't even seem positive that the Apostles would turn up in the first place (they were making an 'investment'), let alone have a specific date handy. Also, from what I can tell there isn't any sort of pattern re: when each one arrives at Tokyo-3. For example, there was a three-week interim between Sachiel and Shamshel and over a month between Zeruel and Arael, but Bardiel and Zeruel are more closely spaced. (The relationship between hatching time and arrival time is sort of an unknown, though.)

Magami no ER wrote:Anyway, had orginally tried to answer more then one, but it would seem I'm no longer that able to ponder about I show I haven't seen in a while.


Watching again sometime would probably be a good idea. Anyone else who hasn't actually watched the show in a while ought to, too. Image (I really need to do another marathon run for myself sometime -- it's a good way of getting 'regrounded', IMO.)

Polaryzed123 wrote:This reminds me of a massive black hole (like a quasar) and the way that amid this massive implosion of mass and light there is a stream of high energy particles emitted straight out from the center like a jet. So maybe its a similar concept in Adam's explosion. Massive amounts of explosive energy producing a concentrated energy "wing". Just the first thing that came to mind.


Interesting... I can see how there could be some parallels there. Must know more about this black hole stuff! Image [EDIT: Whoa, those pictures are cool...]

Since these giant wings form after Adam herself has exploded in a very big way, and linger for some indeterminate period of time afterwards, my own mind links them to the giant cross of light that Sachiel leaves behind. The visual discrepancy between a cross and wings might be bridged by Sho in #25', when she gains passage to the surface with a cross-blast that subsequently splits and becomes two wings of light. (This event is also associated with Adam's wings of light aurally.) However, the difference in Sho's case is that she's still alive when all that happens...

Magami No ER wrote:Something I still ponder and would like to dicuss more in the future is the matter of the souls returning to the womb in EoE...some go into the Black Moon, others the vulvaish Doors of Guaff; possibly why there's a seperation shown here and all that stuff....


Yes, totally. (I want to empty my brain on those issues like you wouldn't believe.) Some pertinent questions come up later in my "anti- forum boredom list".

My limit for the moment.

EDIT:

Ornette wrote:This sounds like it wasn't Adam generating the AATF, but the scientists.


bochan_bird screwed up.

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 10:00 PM

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Reichu wrote:[*]What's the 'sample collection' that's referred to in #07?


Good question. He says that it's been included in the budget, whatever it is.

[*]What's the deal with the writing on Adam's case? (It seems to say, "whoisman heiscrying why?")


I tried searching for this on 2 different "famous quotation" sites, but no luck. So it might be original. (Or an obscure quotation. Another Sci-Fi story title?)

[*]Why does Gendo go to the trouble of lying about Ireul, and why are Seele so upset about an Angel 'falling outside of [their] schedule'?


Perhaps he feels his job is in danger if they can prove he let an Angel into Nerv.

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 10:32 PM

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Postby Jabberwok [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

This seems to be a good thread to properly end my long, unregistered lurker status. And it might even be marginaly contructive and/or intelligent.

Reichu wrote:...so what's with the giant Wings of Light?

My thoughts on the wings could be tainted from either (1) working on the same fanfic for far too long, or (2) playing too many Final Fantasy games, but I have always thought of them as part of the "true form" of both Lilith, Adam, and, by extension, the Evas.

I have imagined the ability to generate wings to be tied to possession of an S2-Engine and that them manifesting is akin to some sort of Super-Saiyan/limit-break/overdrive/really getting into what you're doing... thing (I've always liked overdrive, because it sounds like good techno-babble and paralelling Oh-Ones's 1 pair/2 pair/6 pair shift to DBZ seems to cheapen it for me. And limit-break was just a weak afterthought). Why the Mass Production models needed to have feathers instead of neat, glowy cellophane, i'll have to chalk up to needing EVERY aspect of their design to be extra-hideous.

As far as the wings being tied to Anti-AT-Field generation, doesn't Yui pop her's before HQ detects an AATF?

Her's are orange...y too, not white. That makes me think Adam, Eva, and maybe Lilith: 4 orangey cellophane wings; Adam/Lilith dyad (love that word): 12 white ethereal wings; Neo-Unit 01, after becoming a complete Seed: 12 orangey cellophane wings. Just random jabbering here.

Reichu wrote:...Adam goes kablooie...

Adam: After four eons that spear was starting to itch a little. I'll have to thank these Lilim for moving it.
Adam: Hey, wait a sec. What's this? Which one of you just dived their genes into me?
Dr. K: ...
Adam: Now I'm pissed. Let me just spread my wings a bit, peek in the Chamber...
Adam: Hmm, that's strange: I can't shut down my S2-Engine. This overdrive thing kind of sucks.
Adam: Well, that's it ladies. Your mission's a complete failure.

Magami No ER wrote:...the matter of the souls returning to the womb in EoE...


Something I didn't think up til now, and prolly holds about as much water as a sieve, but could the souls streaming into the Guf maybe be souls reserved for Yui and the whole "ark to save mankind from the vacuum of Third Impact" thing, whereas the souls in the moon are specifically for Intrumentallity/Complementation?

After GNR dissintegrates, the Black Moon + souls melt into blood/LCL and fill the 14km divet formerly known as Neo-Tokyo 3 and the souls within GNR crash back to earth, turn back into green crosses of abiguity, and ascend to Neo-Earth 2 with Yui.

Reichu wrote:Why does Gendo...


I figured he had done this to offset SEELE's timeline. If they bought it and were off by one Angel, when Tabris rolls around, SEELE may have thought him the the 16th and been waiting around for one more Angel while Gendo can hang out in Terminal Dogma, do wierd things to his adopted daughter, and hook up with his deceased wife again, in relative peace.

Clearly they didn't buy it. They knew, Gendo knew they knew and so he decided tweak their schedule again by "losing" the swiss-army-spear.



Oh and one more thing: Did Anno intend for us to ask these questions in the first place?
:P

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 10:34 PM

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm


fixed old post

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 10:43 PM

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Jabberwok wrote:As far as the wings being tied to Anti-AT-Field generation, doesn't Yui pop her's before HQ detects an AATF?

http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/gnr_nowings.jpg
This shot happens RIGHT after Aoba says: "The anti-AT Field from Lilith is expanding!"

Then later, they mention how the ATF's of lifeforms are going to disappear, then we see this:
http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/gnr_wings.jpg

see my quote from ep26' above

12 wings. When Eva-01 busts out of GNR's eye, she then has 12 wings, but they're yellow and translucent

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 10:54 PM

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Postby BigBet [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

waitaminnit... I thought that Ireul's appearance in NERV was NOT foretold in the DSS, and that's why SEELE questions Gendo 'bout ver. Am I wrong?

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 11:01 PM

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Postby Jabberwok [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Ornette wrote:Good screenshots


Oh yeah. No problems there.

I was refering specifically to Unit-01's single pair of wings after Shinji hops in and then the crossed pair after he witnesses Asuka's... yeah. That happens before GNR (emphasising giant) begins to rise.

I did just check out the beginning of Death though and can't help but notice the similarities between Second Impact and later Third. Specifically the swirly cloud of souls, the red tint to the water (LCL), and the unfurling of the wings.

So yeah, first (2I) and third (3I) occurences of wings, almost definitely related to AATF generation. Prolly the fourth (Neo-01 after GNR) too but we're not exactly getting updates from HQ at that point anymore. I'm still not sure about the second (01 before GNR).

BigBet wrote:Am I wrong?


I checked all the Gendo scenes from Ep:13 and the commitee meeting from Ep:14, and while I don't know about Iruel being NOT predicted, the key points seem to be (1) it came earlier than predicted and (2) it was allowed to get too far into Dogma.

Gendo doesn't specifically say the Angel never exsisted, just that the "invasion" never occured. Though later he states that the schedule is advancing correctly, implying that they should still be waiting for the 11th. Though, by the time the next Angel montage occurs in Ep:23, they seem to have it figured out.

Gendo was definitely covering his ***, but now I'm not so sure about intentionally screwing with the Angel roll-call.

[edited for second half]

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 11:16 PM

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Jabberwok wrote:I was refering specifically to Unit-01's single pair of wings after Shinji hops in and then the crossed pair after he witnesses Asuka's... yeah. That happens before GNR (emphasising giant) begins to rise.

ahh yeah, those wings of energy or whatever they are, definitely happen before HQ report anything about AATFs. IIRC Adam's wings were also yellow and translucent, so not sure about the 1 to 1 relationship.

Originally posted on: 05.31.2006, 11:52 PM


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