Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

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Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:41 pm

@Ornette: I hadn't considered things in exactly those sorts of terms. Interesting. My thoughts on that later.

Just to finish the thing from #124, you might notice that Adam/Kaworu is, in visual terms, emerging from Lilith/Rei's belly. This seems like a definite "follow-up" on the fact that Rei absorbed Adam into her abdomen, but I'm at least wondering if there is some connection to "Preggers Lilith", too*.

I should also point out that Lil/Rei is technically sprouting out of her counterpart's torso: The front conforms to the Kaworu mold (legs and all). When Lil takes up the reigns again, the situation reverses.

Image

In predictable Reichu manner, I'll use this as a gratuitous opportunity to draw attention to one (or maybe two) of those extraordinarily abundant suspicious details I love so much.

Image

"What has it got in its pocketses, precious?"** But apart from that curiosity (which I'll share my thoughts about in a more appropriate context), notice anything else about the way this cut starts, versus how it ends?

Image

Giant Naked Kaworu starts off with some "conveniently placed" clouds, as per the standard. Following the tradition of "compositional censorship", right? But then, in bold defiance of anime convention, this massive manifestation of "that boy" steps out to reveal a smooth, rather unmasculine groin. For some reason, the word "flaunt" comes to mind. Am I the only one staring awkwardly? :tongue:

In addition to this, the thing that Rei and Kaworu are sharing is a pelvis (even though the broader details shift depending on who's "in front"), and, when Kaworu takes "the back", the "one Seed birthing another" imagery would thus be reversed (i.e., GNR is "coming out of GNK's belly"). An interesting little setup, at any rate. Another instance of "you never see anything just once", as well.

http://www.evageeks.org/full-o...p_C237_comp.jpg
http://www.evageeks.org/full-o...op_C252_big.jpg

(And, yes. The aggressively nagging suspicions about Kaworu have as yet absolutely refused to go away. Image Just FYI.)

* Aside from the thought I've had that the massive belly is visually alluding to Lilith's state before she lost her legs. (= Gestating Shogouki.)

** (Ojisan, it's all YOUR fault!)

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 02:16 AM

Jabberwok [ANF]
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Postby Jabberwok [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:41 pm

Reichu wrote:What do you need to know about imbedding screenshots?

Imbedding was the wrong word for me to use here. I was more talking about getting nice caps off of a DVD copy, hosting of said images, appropriate dimensions... Stuff like that. I can remember reading a thread about screen-capping a while ago; I just need to find it. The hosting thing could be mostly solved by "Right-Click, View"-ing other images to see where others are stashing them.

It's mostly me just needing to learn the "correct/accepted" way of including images with a post.

It's what all the cool kids are doing, isn't it? Image


Reichu wrote:Oh man, please don't tempt me.

I wish I hadn't tempted myself. Last night, instead of forming some good responses for discussion, I spent most of my time thinking up a rough outline for a little one-shot I now want to write. I was thinking of calling it "The man that cried 'for you' from the bottom of the world"...

Reichu wrote:..."Gendo sticking embryonic Adam into Rei 3's abdomen"...

When you look at it, this scene above most, if not all, others makes Gendo look like a complete idiot.

Doesn't he say something right after to the effect of "...the forbidden fusion...now take me to see my Yui"? How does he hope to accomplish this? By clutching the front of Rei's pelvic bone and flying up with her "Mary Poppins"-style?

The dude could have at least implanted Adam into his chest or something. Would have made the whole merging and flying thing seem more... "realistic". Ugh, I just used "realistic" to describe anime science.


Ornette wrote:Ritsuko mentioned that the "Room of Gauf was empty"... Fuyutsuki said "The Chamber of Guf (Hall of Souls) has been unsealed"... So are these souls filling the chamber of Guf? Meaning that these are the souls that will used for newly born people?

Whenever I try to figure out the Chamber and all of this Metaphysical Biology stuff, I can't help but think that a better familiarity with Japanese, or at the very least Far Eastern, spiritualism would help me a lot.

The best I can come up with now is that 2I, and Adam's opening of the Doors, short-circuited, for lack of a better word now, the Chamber. Maybe souls can leave, hence all children born after 2000, but cannot re-enter, hence the Chamber being empty by the time (if not before) Rei II is created. This may explain the red glow at the South Pole, souls with nowhere to go.

What doesn't jive with this is, are we ever presented younger children in the show at all? The youngest I can recall would be Touji's sister and her classmates. We know she's in elementary school so that should put her birthday in an '04-'08 window, but if the Chamber is empty by '10 (Rei II date pulled from Wikapedia and I think is corroborated by Death), I would expect at least a mention in the show about the fact that no children have been born for the last four or so years.

Hell, even the Evas are without souls at their creation. Could the Camber have been empty earlier, in an '03 and earlier time frame ('03=Eva construction, also taken from Wika. I don't know the source)?

This comes back to the spiritualism thing. How big a deal is reincarnation over there? Could it be that beings born (that is, not created) post-2000 are reincarnations of those that perished during and after 2I?

Image_
Whenever I think I have a flimsy answer I find another, less-flimsy question.

I'll try to push my "FIP" post to completion as soon as I can. Seriously, just trying to sort out the basics and some of the screens I want to use, I came up with 3 more good theories, one of which is kind of intrinsic to the "FIP" and two others which kind of flow together and are really fun to think about.

Not to leave anyone hanging, but I can't put them into intelligible words right now.

Reichu wrote:(1) "What has it got in its pocketses, precious?"...(2) notice anything else about the way this cut starts, versus how it ends?

(1) If you're talking about some "I'm so cool with my hands in my pockets"-Kaji/Kaworu imagery, definitely. That Kaworu is one tricksy Childrens. I thank you here before I do so here about said connection I had been unable to put my finger on.

(2)I won't discount the possible opportunity to highlight how 've' is, how did you put it, "smooth as a porpoise". I just took the leaning in to be reminiscent of the Rei ghost's "tag-you're-it"-tangification process.

And as far as the barren nature of 'vis' mons pubis region, I want to chalk that up the "genitals=bad" thing the Japanese (government) have.

That, and I don't know if adding a 200+ meter wang to the scene would have added any narrative effect.

Just sayin'. Image

I'll add anything else about said fancy lad's nature in the afore mentioned thread, but until then: Jabberwok out. Image

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 01:23 PM

HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]
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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:41 pm

I haven't been keeping up with this topic particularly closely, so forgive me if I miss something obvious that someone already mentioned...

Reichu wrote:I should also point out that Lil/Rei is technically sprouting out of her counterpart's torso: The front conforms to the Kaworu mold (legs and all). When Lil takes up the reigns again, the situation reverses.

I dunno, from here, judging by the GIF you posted (which, I might add, has a rather lave lamp-esque hypnotic quality to it) it looks like the hips conform more to whichever figure is at the front ("being born"), rather than the one in the back ("birthing" the other one). Which leads me to...

And, yes. The aggressively nagging suspicions about Kaworu have as yet absolutely refused to go away.

Perhaps I'm just seeing things differently, but watch the hips and shoulders, in particular...when Kaworu's in the front, the hips are definitely narrower and the shoulders wider, in typical masculine fashion: when Rei takes center stage, it's the reverse, in (obviously) feminine fashion. As for...

But then, in bold defiance of anime convention, this massive manifestation of "that boy" steps out to reveal a smooth, rather unmasculine groin. For some reason, the word "flaunt" comes to mind.

I always just kinda wrote that off as a "you don't have to censor female groins in anime, so we'll use that instead of a sausage" (or even "it's easier than having to draw a wee-wee" Image) sort of situation, but who knows, I could be wrong.

Just a handful of things I (thought I) noticed...

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 02:06 PM

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:41 pm

Jabberwok wrote:When you look at it, this scene above most, if not all, others makes Gendo look like a complete idiot.

Doesn't he say something right after to the effect of "...the forbidden fusion...now take me to see my Yui"? How does he hope to accomplish this? By clutching the front of Rei's pelvic bone and flying up with her "Mary Poppins"-style?
I dunno, maybe he had something like this in mind:
Image

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 02:33 PM

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:41 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:I dunno, maybe he had something like this in mind:

Poor Shinji, I bet when he saw THAT we'd be able to hear his brain snap even if he was still in the entry plug

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 02:55 PM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:41 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:I haven't been keeping up with this topic particularly closely


Shame on you! Image You missin' out on da sheeyat, yo!

I dunno, from here, judging by the GIF you posted (which, I might add, has a rather lave lamp-esque hypnotic quality to it)


Thanks... I think? Probably due to the giant ATF blur that darkens the screen while the morphing occurs.

it looks like the hips conform more to whichever figure is at the front ("being born"), rather than the one in the back ("birthing" the other one). Which leads me to


All very well-noticed, yes. Are you familiar with the specifics of the "femme-Kaworu" idea?

I always just kinda wrote that off as a "you don't have to censor female groins in anime, so we'll use that instead of a sausage" (or even "it's easier than having to draw a wee-wee" Image) sort of situation, but who knows, I could be wrong.


It's far too suspicious to be ignored, IMHO. The scene starts off with a conveniently-placed groin cover that would have been effective for the entire cut if shifted slightly to the right. And by "exposing" Kaworu (who is supposedly a boy), it breaks the standard set for all Lilim-shaped males in the show ("why show a featureless groin when you can just not show it at all?"). There is something impishly deliberate about it, and, like I (sorta) said, it might be putting in plain eyesight the elusive reason for Shinji's awkward staring in the shower, while drawing Kaworu's true nature and the role ve (or she, as it would go) plays to Shinji into one perfect circle.

Could theoretically take this to my Kaworu thread if people want to pursue it further. Image It's been a while, no?

@Shin-seiki: Write something with substance, damn you!

@Jabberwok: Gyah! More later.

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 03:01 PM

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Postby Lt.Colonel_Fred [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

Reichu wrote:("why show a featureless groin when you can just not show it at all?").


Why? well i'll tell u why... BECAUSE THEY THINK HE WOULD BE A TRANSEXUAL!!!!!!!!

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 03:12 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

Lt.Colonel_Fred wrote:Why? well i'll tell u why... BECAUSE THEY THINK HE WOULD BE A TRANSEXUAL!!!!!!!!


^ One of the reasons why posts in the Series Specific fora don't count anymore, I guess?

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 03:30 PM

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Postby MonkeyBoy0314 [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

I think so, Brain. But if it was only a 3 hour tour, how come the Howells brought all their money? Image

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 03:43 PM

HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]
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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

Reichu wrote:Are you familiar with the specifics of the "femme-Kaworu" idea?

Not familiar enough, apparently, if you've already taken all the stuff I mentioned above into account, heh heh.

The scene starts off with a conveniently-placed groin cover that would have been effective for the entire cut if shifted slightly to the right.

For some reason, heaven knows why, I never thought of the clouds in that scene as a "suspiciously convenient censor" (and heaven knows, with all the cartoons I watch, I know them well): maybe it's just because it wasn't as bleeding obvious as, say, the well-placed lamp in Rei's room or the convenient height of the water when Shinji's in the hot spring. How long did the cloud cover his crotch in that scene before "giving up," anyways? Offhand it can't have been long if I and my Toon-O-Vision didn't pick up on it...I need to watch it again, I suppose.

There is something impishly deliberate about it, and, like I (sorta) said, it might be putting in plain eyesight the elusive reason for Shinji's awkward staring in the shower, while drawing Kaworu's true nature and the role ve (or she, as it would go) plays to Shinji into one perfect circle.

As I said before, you could be right, but I get caught up on the fact that if they really wanted Kaworu to be female (or androgynous), why would they make his body for the most part (as I mentioned in my last post) male, and only mess around with the indoor/outdoor plumbing, as Professor Wollock used to call it? If they really were leading up to something intentionally there, I'd lean toward the "androgyny" end of the argument...fully female seems a bit of a stretch to me, but who knows, I may change my mind.

For now, my instincts still tell me that the guys at Gainax just thought "Hmm...the cloud would work, but then we'd have to censor Rei from the waist down too, and the fans wouldn't stand for that." Image

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 05:20 PM

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Postby Miduki [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

@reichu: Burnt out after studying for exams and SAT II's. But I do wonder why Lilith gained legs and a "pregnant" look.

Another thought, perhaps the Eva team wasn't considering biology when they decided where Gendou's hand should go, or Gendou just didn't get to go down "far enough" as Rei stops him.

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 06:45 PM

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Postby Jabberwok [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:lolz

"win!! " indeed.

Originally posted on: 06.02.2006, 06:55 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:Not familiar enough, apparently, if you've already taken all the stuff I mentioned above into account, heh heh.


"Femme-Kaworu" is 'made possible' by Kaworu's nature as a genetic hybrid between Adam and a certain Lilim. (I'm actually uncertain how lucid the theory regarding Kaworu's origins is to most...) Adam is from a type of human wherein the females have a somatotype that is "masculine" by our standards: There isn't anything "male" about the Lilim male's repertoire of secondary sexual characteristics from Adam's POV. So that Kaworu -- half of whose genes come from her, and are apparently taking at least some expression, as evident from the unusual pigmentation -- could be a female with a "boyish" appearance doesn't seem nearly as farfetched to me as the typical reaction implies that it is.

The possibility of Kaworu being a girl in the first place only occurred because of multiple lines of thoughts organically converging at the same point and making fireworks. The Giant Naked Dyad remains one of the things in plain sight that "doesn't let go".

Jabberwok wrote:Imbedding was the wrong word for me to use here. I was more talking about getting nice caps off of a DVD copy, hosting of said images, appropriate dimensions... Stuff like that.


If you run into any pickles, feel free to shoot me a PM. I managed to actually pull off my FGC website update, so I'm probably going to do a little bit on FIP this weekend before I totally forget about it. Expect to see replies to stuff in this thread in another one... (If it's not already there, I'll suck it up and make one, fufufu.)

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 01:24 AM

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Postby Miduki [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

Reichu wrote:could be a female with a "boyish" appearance


Much like Oshima in "Kafka on the Shore," by Haruki Murakami. Who looks like an attractive man, and lives life as a homosexual man (straight woman, but plays role of man), despite being a she.

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 01:06 PM

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 pm

Reichu wrote:"Femme-Kaworu" is 'made possible' by Kaworu's nature as a genetic hybrid between Adam and a certain Lilim.

Ah, okay, so this goes back to the "Adam is female" thing. I'm still not quite ready to accept that one, as I tend to label all the angels (SoL's included) as either nongendered or both genders...in the SoL's cases, specifically, if they were female, by definition they'd need a male's "assistance" to reproduce: to the best of my knowledge, there's nothing to indicate anything other than that both Adam and Lilith were able to reproduce by themselves, independently, separately. As such, I'm still stuck at that point...then again, I haven't kept up with that debate very closely either, so maybe something I mentioned above has already been disproved somewhere down the line.

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 01:49 PM

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Postby CanonRAP [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:in the SoL's cases, specifically, if they were female, by definition they'd need a male's "assistance" to reproduce: to the best of my knowledge, there's nothing to indicate anything other than that both Adam and Lilith were able to reproduce by themselves, independently, separately. As such, I'm still stuck at that point...


SoL + Spear = Tree of Life


I believe in another thread, it was pointed out that the Spear(s) may play a part in creating life; namely, by penetrating/merging with the Core.

EDIT:

From http://animenation.net/forums/showt...t=191937&page=2

CanonRAP wrote:Oh, I just meant how the long, smooth object 'breaks through the AT Field' and goes into the Core, then (to use your word) corgasm occurs.


Reichu wrote:The "fertilization device" suggestion is actually serious in intent, FYI, however fetally-formed.


Why does it keep saying I need 10 more characters? Because I used cut-and-paste?

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 03:11 PM

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

CanonRAP wrote:I believe in another thread, it was pointed out that the Spear(s) may play a part in creating life; namely, by penetrating/merging with the Core.

Hmm...I'd hafta read further, I suppose, but at first blush that does sound kinda wonky. First off, of course, if the spear is the "male" as opposed to the SoL's "female," then we're talking about a male/female concept that's quite far removed from the human concept, save for the "penetration of some sort = reproduction" part. As such, how much effect this sort of thing would have on the effect of a human's (Kaworu's, specifically...and yeah, yeah, he's not strictly "human," but you know what I mean) physical appearance when it's tossed in there someplace is more or less infinitely debatable.

Second, in the series the Spear always seems to be seen as destroying or otherwise inhibiting life...stopping Lilith's legs from growing (and leaving her with a "pregnant" look when it's separated from her), wiping out Armisael, somehow playing a part in GNR's tang-ifying the world...is there any point where it actually "creates" something? If so, I've probably forgotten...

Again, this is (mostly) uninformed opinionating at work here, so feel free to enlighten me on anything I've missed...

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 04:14 PM

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:Second, in the series the Spear always seems to be seen as destroying or otherwise inhibiting life...stopping Lilith's legs from growing (and leaving her with a "pregnant" look when it's separated from her), wiping out Armisael, somehow playing a part in GNR's tang-ifying the world...is there any point where it actually "creates" something? If so, I've probably forgotten...


Would you consider this creation?

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 04:56 PM

CanonRAP [ANF]
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Postby CanonRAP [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:Hmm...I'd hafta read further, I suppose, but at first blush that does sound kinda wonky. First off, of course, if the spear is the "male" as opposed to the SoL's "female," then we're talking about a male/female concept that's quite far removed from the human concept, save for the "penetration of some sort = reproduction" part.


Second, in the series the Spear always seems to be seen as destroying or otherwise inhibiting life


Here's something:
a paraphrase wrote:a tool has two uses; what someone uses it for, and what it is supposed to be used for


...stopping Lilith's legs from growing (and leaving her with a "pregnant" look when it's separated from her)


Well, it's usually taken out before someone gets pregnant, eh? [/random idiocy]

, wiping out Armisael,


You mean Arael, right?

somehow playing a part in GNR's tang-ifying the world...is there any point where it actually "creates" something? If so, I've probably forgotten...


Ornette already beat me to it Image .

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 06:54 PM

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Postby Miduki [ANF] » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:52 pm

Oh, who was the "soul" inside of Touji's Eva?

Originally posted on: 06.03.2006, 07:22 PM


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