Shinji understand the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact were different events in Q

[Konja7]

In Q, Kaworu mentioned this to Shinji:

Kaworu: Ikari Shinji-kun, once Awakened, Eva-01 opened the Door of Guf and became the trigger for Third Impact. Lilin call it Near Third Impact. It was all initiated by you.


Many people assumed Shinji didn't understand that the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact were different events. However, I'm not so sure Shinji didn't understand this.

In fact, Shinji wasn't surprised when Kaworu told him that Lillith's corpse was the epicenter of the Third Impact. This could imply he knows Near Third Impact and Third Impact were different events.


So, I think Shinji understand the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact are different events with that explanation in Q, but he still blame himself because the Near Third Impact (that he released) was the trigger.


In Shin, it's never implied that Shinji doesn't know the difference between these events.


PS: In Shin, it's never explained how the Near Third Impact is what initiated everything, but the movie still put the blame of everything on Shinji.

[Kendrix]

but the movie still put the blame of everything on Shinji.

That wasn't really my impression; Multiple ppl defend him & Misato gives him a full on apology.

The only thing he really apologizes for & gets a moment where he's "this and this is why" would be is the Bardiel incident - where his behavior was probably normal for a random kid but could reasonably have been better. & he's giving this apology to Asuka, who is consistently super harsh & not necessarily supposed to be right... or maybe it's better to say that's she's only saying part of the truth. Either way he's trying to deliberately mend fences with her just cause he wants to.

He's still gonna feel bad/responsible because anyone would if they were involved in an accident that caused others great harm, you always wonder what you could've done wrong etc. In any case there IS a cause & effect reaction (one look at the FoI's EVA- like shape tells you that) and people blamed him for it.
There's the kind of responsibility that you have by default as a consequence of your actions, and the sort that you take upon yourself deliberately because something needs doing, & this is the second.

Touji even tells him "Hey, you fought enough, you can stay here, no one would blame you etc."

Which is the first time that Shinji REALLY had a full-fledged out, if you think about it, cause in all the other instances the choice was "do the awful thing, or lose the only sense of community you ever had & go back to your pitiful barely-existence" - this is the first time he got the offer to leave but also be part of some other community - except by this point he actually wants to do something about the situation. It's probably still somewhat motivated by guilt but probably closer to a real free-will decision than it's ever been.

[Konja7]

That wasn't really my impression; Multiple ppl defend him & Misato gives him a full on apology.

I wasn't clear in that part.

My point is that there is never a defense that free Shinji from the blame for the state of the World. The closer is Misato saying Shinji is his subordinate and the blame should fall on her for that reason.

One of the message in Shin is accept responsability and make ammends. So, the movie still need Shinji to be guilty to convey the message.

[one-eyed]

Konja7, I wanted to challenge you: formulate a formal charge against Shinji on the N3I. Nothing as: "He awake the Eva!" or "He said he didn't care about the world!" I want something that could be used in a tribunal: such as neglect of security protocols, unauthorized use of equipment, etc. Then, I'm going to formulate his defense as in a simulated court, okay? It would be fairest to him.

[Konja7]

Konja7, I wanted to challenge you: formulate a formal charge against Shinji on the N3I. Nothing as: "He awake the Eva!" or "He said he didn't care about the world!" I want something that could be used in a tribunal: such as neglect of security protocols, unauthorized use of equipment, etc. Then, I'm going to formulate his defense as in a simulated court, okay? It would be fairest to him.

There isn't enough details in the story to know how Shinji is guilty.

In Shin (and Q), the story has already given the verdict: Shinji is guilty for the Near Third Impact and how this initiated everything (even if we we don't know how). The story works with that background.

If the story wants Shinji to be totally innocent, it could invent/use any kind of reason (including that Shinji is a 14 years old). However, the story didn't do that.


PS: I totally understand you don't like the way they handle this situation, but that's the direction Q and Shin take.

[Shinji Ikari Expy]

I'd have to agree that the distinction between Near Third Impact and Third Impact is one of the most confusing parts of the NTE lore. I think Anno & Co. may have been trying to make the situation ambiguous — no one person is entirely at fault for the state of the earth.

I've always read the situation this way: Shinji inadvertently opened the Doors of Guf which started the impact. It was stopped by Kaworu and re-started by Seele/Neo-Nerv. I don't know how Shinji processed it or whether he knows the difference between N3I and 3I, he just knows that he was the trigger and it makes him feel horrible.

What exactly is Shinji guilty of? The end of 2.0 shows him disregarding the safety of everyone else to save one person; it's a parallel to his father, who shuts out everyone to reunite with Yui. That's the sin he's guilty of. The situation is too murky to actually convict Shinji in a criminal tribunal, for reasons that have been dissected in this forum many times. (Let's not go there again). So no, One-Eyed, I cannot lay out a way to prosecute Shinji in the International Criminal Court.

It's likely that Misato was in denial about her own role in the impact at the beginning of Q. Seeing Shinji again forces her to confront her own sins, and she ultimately atones by helping him restore the earth. That's her arc in the last two movies. It's meant to provide a heart-wrenching conflict and emotionally satisfying conclusion.

This is from Reichu's translation:

Misato:

It's alright, Shinji-kun.

If you hadn't piloted Eva Unit-01 fourteen years ago,

we would have all died right then and there.

So thank you.

Even if Near Third happened as a result,

the onus for the actions that Shinji-kun took is entirely on me.

And Ikari Shinji still falls under my -- Katsuragi Misato's -- supervision.

Meaning that I take responsibility for his actions going ahead.

[wiser3754]

I've always read the situation this way: Shinji inadvertently opened the Doors of Guf which started the impact. It was stopped by Kaworu and re-started by Seele/Neo-Nerv.

Here's a word for you that explains this discrepancy in 3.0. RETCONNED.

Don't get me started on that post credits scene in 2.0 and what revelations were uncovered in 3.0.

What I believed to hidden under the overt portrait of 3.0 was an underlying mystery - should you look hard enough - unveiling the real truth about Nerv/Seele's and Kaworu's motives for doing what they do to Shinji and the world outside of him. Subjugation and manipulation. A trait/s humanity tends to use and abuse for achieving goals.

No point in me going any further considering how adamant I was in believing Shinji was the victim of circumstance with humanity (at least for him) showing their true colors when Shinji doesn't do things correctly in their eyes.

[Konja7]

What I believed to hidden under the overt portrait of 3.0 was an underlying mystery - should you look hard enough - unveiling the real truth about Nerv/Seele's and Kaworu's motives for doing what they do to Shinji and the world outside of him. Subjugation and manipulation. A trait/s humanity tends to use and abuse for achieving goals.

It doesn't seem Kaworu was involved in the release of the Third Impact

In fact, it seems more likely Kaworu was involved to stop the Third Impact, since he has a pretty good relationship with Kaji (who sacrificed to stop the Third Impact).

[wiser3754]

What I believed to hidden under the overt portrait of 3.0 was an underlying mystery - should you look hard enough - unveiling the real truth about Nerv/Seele's and Kaworu's motives for doing what they do to Shinji and the world outside of him. Subjugation and manipulation. A trait/s humanity tends to use and abuse for achieving goals.

It doesn't seem Kaworu was involved in the release of the Third Impact

In fact, it seems more likely Kaworu was involved to stop the Third Impact, since he has a pretty good relationship with Kaji (who sacrificed to stop the Third Impact).

And what stopped *rolls eyes* 'Near Third Impact'? Why has Unit 01 regressed back to it's corporeal form with corified armour from a being of light? What was sacrificed to stop 'Near Third Impact'?
Also why the hell did Gendo need to hasten Unit 01's awakening and trigger 'Third Impact' when the Mark.06/Lilith/12th Angel were going to it anyway? What was Unit 01's purpose in 3.0 and the 3.0 + 1.0 to Nerv when Unit 13 had taken it's place?

[Konja7]

And what stopped *rolls eyes* 'Near Third Impact'? Why has Unit 01 regressed back to it's corporeal form with corified armour from a being of light? What was sacrificed to stop 'Near Third Impact'?
Also why the hell did Gendo need to hasten Unit 01's awakening and trigger 'Third Impact' when the Mark.06/Lilith/12th Angel were going to it anyway? What was Unit 01's purpose in 3.0 and the 3.0 + 1.0 to Nerv when Unit 13 had taken it's place?

These are all pretty good questions. Anno likely want you to theorize the answers with the information he gives in the movies.


When I mentioned that Kaji sacrificed his life to stop the Third Impact, I mean he died to stop it. It's possible a life sacrifice is necessary to stop an Impact, but this isn't confirmed.


Regarding the Near Third Impact, my theory is the Third Impact in Ha couldn't be stopped by only one lance, but it was paused.

After all, two lances (and maybe a sacrifice) seem to be necessary to stop the Third Impact in the timeskip and the Fourth Impact in Q. Instead, Eva-01 was stabbed by only one lance in Ha.

Also, I think the Third Impact in the timeskip is a continuation of the Near Third Impact. That could explain why WILLE seems to blame everything on the Near Third Impact (although the Near Third Impact seems to have caused destruction by itself too).

Of course, this is just my theory with the information we have.


PS: Gendo still seems to need Unit-01 for his plans in Shin. So, that's likely why he needs Unit-01 to have an Awakening in Ha.

[wiser3754]

These are all pretty good questions. Anno likely want you to theorize the answers with the information he gives in the movies.

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!!!!!

When I mentioned that Kaji sacrificed his life to stop the Third Impact, I mean he died to stop it. It's possible a life sacrifice is necessary to stop an Impact, but this isn't confirmed.

If he's dead how can he make the suggestion to Kaworu to join both Misato and their son at the village-3 after his death?

Regarding the Near Third Impact, my theory is the Third Impact in Ha couldn't be stopped by only one lance, but it was paused.

No. No. No. That post credits scene clearly depicts Tokyo-3 unaffected to corificatio. There's no red earth yet humanity seems to blame Near Third Impact for the vast devastation. That scene was retconned. No canon.

PS: Gendo still seems to need Unit-01 for his plans in Shin. So, that's likely why he needs Unit-01 to have an Awakening in Ha.

Unit-01 is used by Shniji to fight Gendo whose using Unit-13. What plan is there for Unit-01? Let Wille, an adversary to Nerv, use it as a weapon against them?

[Konja7]

If he's dead how can he make the suggestion to Kaworu to join both Misato and their son at the village-3 after his death?.

Kaji died to stop the Third Impact in the timeskip. That is mentioned in Shin.

His soul appears in Kaworu's Instrumentality. That's where he says Kaworu should live with Misato.

No. No. No. That post credits scene clearly depicts Tokyo-3 unaffected to corificatio. There's no red earth yet humanity seems to blame Near Third Impact for the vast devastation. That scene was retconned. No canon.

There isn't a retcon.


The Near Third Impact doesn't seem the reason why the Earth was corified. It seems the Third Impact (that was stopped by Kaji's sacrifice) caused the red Earth.

In Q, Kaworu says this when Shinji see the red Earth:

Shinji: What is this...?
Kaworu: The outcome of Third Impact, which came to pass while you were merged with Eva-01.

In Shin, Gendo also says the Third Impact "purified" the land (while the Second Impact "purified" the sea).


However, humanity blames the Near Third Impact because it initiated everything. Unfortunately, the audience doesn't know the details of how the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact.

Also, the Near Third Impact seems to have been a pretty destructive event by itself and killed many people.

In Shin, Midori says this when Shinji wants to pilot again:

Midori: "You're a disease! Do you know what humanity's been through thanks to you and your Near Third Impact!? This is all your fault, you and your father...! I won't let you do it!"

[wiser3754]

The Near Third Impact doesn't seem the reason why the Earth was corified. It seems the Third Impact (that was stopped by Kaji's sacrifice) caused the red Earth.

In Q, Kaworu says this when Shinji see the red Earth:

Shinji: What is this...?
Kaworu: The outcome of Third Impact, which came to pass while you were merged with Eva-01.

Kaworu also states that Shinji is the cause for all of it and reinforces it when he points out the DSS Choker and humanity's ire at him.

[Konja7]

Kaworu also states that Shinji is the cause for all of it and reinforces it when he points out the DSS Choker and humanity's ire at him.

Kaworu mentioned the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact:

Kaworu: Ikari Shinji-kun, once Awakened, Eva-01 opened the Door of Guf and became the trigger for Third Impact. Lilin call it Near Third Impact. It was all initiated by you.
Shinji: You're wrong! All I wanted to do was save Ayanami!
Kaworu: True. But that caused everything else.
Shinji: No... This can't be right! You're telling me all of this so fast, and there's nothing I can do about it!
Kaworu: Indeed. There's nothing you can do about your past. This is the truth you desired to know. As a result, the Lilin are letting you pay for your sin. That's what the thing on your neck is, no?
Shinji: What sin? I didn't do anything! I had nothing to do with it!
Kaworu: You may deny it, but humanity thinks otherwise. However, no sin is beyond redemption. There is always hope. Always

Although the Near Third Impact don't turn the land to core, it is still the trigger for the Third Impact. That's why it's considered that Shinji initiated/caused everything

As I mentioned, Q or Shin don't explain the details of how the Near Third Impact is the trigger for the Third Impact. I think Anno leaves that for us to theorize.



In fact, the point of this thread was to discuss if Shinji understood the difference between the Third Impact and the Near Third Impact from Kaworu's words.

I think Shinji understood, because he wasn't surprised when Kaworu mentioned that Lilith's corpse was the epicentre of the Third Impact.

[swagbuckking1]

Kaworu mentioned the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact:

Kaworu: Ikari Shinji-kun, once Awakened, Eva-01 opened the Door of Guf and became the trigger for Third Impact. Lilin call it Near Third Impact. It was all initiated by you.

Kaworu: True. But that caused everything else.

The parts I have bolded have subtle implications in their meaning (as the english language usually does) and suggest that Shinji indirectly caused the discrete and separate third impact event by initiating the NTI. Even though Shinji had nothing to do with the actual third impact, he did set the NTI ball rolling, which was continued most likely by SEELE after Kaworu stopped it originally.

Although the Near Third Impact don't turn the land to core, it is still the trigger for the Third Impact. That's why it's considered that Shinji initiated/caused everything.

Yes I agree with this. The preview at the end of 2.0 (if it is considered canon) suggests that there is a time-gap between NTI and Third Impact. I think this because of the fact that the UN interrogated all of NERV's personnel whilst also securing Unit 1 with the pillars and restrictions. That all takes time, and the land itself doesn't appear coreified during this period. Also Tokyo-3 was evacuated after NTI but did not appear to be coreified either.

My theory is that the scene we see of Mark 06 descending down in dogma wasn't actually Kaworu but SEELE instead. It is known that Mark 06 is supposed to be completely autonomous, so why can't it be that SEELE tried to use this function to bring about the actual third impact. Kaworu and Kaji then later stopped the third impact, caused by SEELE, with the spears and Kaji's sacrifice.

As I mentioned, Q or Shin don't explain the details of how the Near Third Impact is the trigger for the Third Impact. I think Anno leaves that for us to theorize.

In my opinion, an audience should not be left theorizing or speculating after the final film of a franchise is out. It should tie up any loose ends and close any plot holes that may exist. You could say that Anno deliberately did this for whatever artistic reason, but that doesn't make it any less frustrating to have so many questions left unclarified. He should not have introduced a timeskip if he was unable to explain the details of it afterwards.

In fact, the point of this thread was to discuss if Shinji understood the difference between the Third Impact and the Near Third Impact from Kaworu's words.

I think Shinji understood, because he wasn't surprised when Kaworu mentioned that Lilith's corpse was the epicentre of the Third Impact.

Yes this makes good sense. If Shinji thought he was the sole cause for the Third Impact, I imagine he would have said to Kaworu: "WTF! I thought you said I caused the Third Impact?! Then why the fuck is Lilith like that?! I didn't do that, I was nowhere near Lilith!", but he doesn't. So yeah, he probably figured out he didn't cause the third impact but still felt responsible for setting the stage for SEELE to continue the NTI that Shinji started.

[Konja7]

There isn't a retcon.

I want to clarify something. When I mentioned there isn't a retcon, I just mean the Near Third Impact doesn't seem to cause the red Earth.

We don't know if the events in the preview at the end of 2.0 really happened during the timeskip. After all, Eva Unit 8+2 appeared in the preview at the end of 3.0, but it never appeared in Shin.

Yes I agree with this. The preview at the end of 2.0 (if it is considered canon) suggests that there is a time-gap between NTI and Third Impact. I think this because of the fact that the UN interrogated all of NERV's personnel whilst also securing Unit 1 with the pillars and restrictions. That all takes time, and the land itself doesn't appear coreified during this period. Also Tokyo-3 was evacuated after NTI but did not appear to be coreified either.

There were some months (at most) between the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact.

Misato was pregnant when the Third Impact started (although her pregnant belly wasn't noticeable yet). That's the main reason why she doesn't sacrifice along Kaji.

[ElMariachi]

Although the Near Third Impact don't turn the land to core, it is still the trigger for the Third Impact. That's why it's considered that Shinji initiated/caused everything

As I mentioned, Q or Shin don't explain the details of how the Near Third Impact is the trigger for the Third Impact. I think Anno leaves that for us to theorize.



In fact, the point of this thread was to discuss if Shinji understood the difference between the Third Impact and the Near Third Impact from Kaworu's words.

I think Shinji understood, because he wasn't surprised when Kaworu mentioned that Lilith's corpse was the epicentre of the Third Impact.

I'm sorry, but if it''s the path NTE tries to follow, then it's utter bullshit: the kid triggered a hidden function of his Eva that he had no idea existed, which NERV's two top leader engineered to happen, said function "only" brought damage on a localized scale (still suck for the people who died during it), then several months later the apocalyptic death cult start the proper Third Impact they planned to trigger all along no matter what, this one turning the whole planet into a glowing rock... and the fault resides on the clueless and manipulated kid at the beginning of the chain?!
What kind of fucked up insane troll logic is that?

The purpose of this topic is indeed to discuss if Shinji understood the difference between N3I and A3I in Q, but I just can't see be the case, because if he was explained he would had immediately protested to being held responsible for everything, like any sane human being should!

Although on the other hand, whether Kaworu explained to Shinji that there were two Third Impacts or not (and I doubt that he did, since Shinji never ever mentions SEELE, and there's no way Kaworu could had explained A3I to him without mentioning them), Shinji (and the plot) still decided that everything was his fault, so whatever.

[Konja7]

What kind of fucked up insane troll logic is that?

As I said, we don't know the details.

We don't know how much harm make the Near Third Impact by itself? Or how the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact?

I understand it is frustrating, but it seems this is the route Rebuild movies take.

The purpose of this topic is indeed to discuss if Shinji understood the difference between N3I and A3I in Q, but I just can't see be the case, because if he was explained he would had immediately protested to being held responsible for everything, like any sane human being should!

In Q, Kaworu seems to explain to Shinji that the Third Impact was caused by Lilins. This was told just before he started to mention the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact:

Shinji: What is this...?
Kaworu: The outcome of Third Impact, which came to pass while you were merged with Eva-01.
Shinji: But then... What happened to everyone in the city?
Kaworu: Mass extinctions are not unusual on this planet. In fact, they help drive evolution. Life has always changed itself to adapt to the world around it. However, Lilin change not themselves, but the world. So they brought the rite of artificial evolution unto themselves. Old life is offered in sacrifice, so that new beings blessed with the Fruit of Life may be created. All this is an act of extinction that has been programmed since time immemorial. Nerv call it the Human Instrumentality Project.
Shinji: This is Nerv's... This is what my father was doing.


PS: What he mentioned about new beings with Fruit of Life was SEELE's plan (and Gendo pretended that he follows that plan).

[ElMariachi]

As I said, we don't know the details.

We don't know how much harm make the Near Third Impact by itself? Or how the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact?

I understand it is frustrating, but it seems this is the route Rebuild movies take.

And how are we expected to take seriously Shinji's taking of all the blame if we aren't explained this? And I feel that we'll never get an explanation of the events of the timeskip, because that will make the entire premise of Shinji's guilt and need to "atone for his sins" crumble like a house of card.

In Q, Kaworu explained to Shinji that the Third Impact was caused by Lilins. This was told just before he started to mention the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact:

And you really think that Shinji managed to take away from Kaworu's usual cryptic and metaphorical explanations that there were two Third Impacts? The only thing it says is that the nightmarish landscape is part of NERV's plans. (and notes that he doesn't mentions SEELE, who are the original masterminds of that plan)

[Konja7]

I also think we will never discover how the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact. I think it has been confirmed that there won't be an interquel for the timeskip.