“Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

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“Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:17 pm

There have always been theories that Asuka & Shinji had sex, but usually they revolve around the mentions of Asuka's period and her mentions of 'kimochi warui'.

This one is different. I not only think they have sex during NGE, I think we witnessed part of it, and heard another part unknowingly.
It would be nearly impossible to convincingly summarize this theory in text or image form, which is why I made a video drawing on the necessary footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcXGgjyV4WA

---

Updating this thread with three new points of interest

1) Based on the contents of "Everything You've Ever Dreamed" and episode 15 in this image (see this thread for more on the subject) it seems that Shinji and Asuka had more interactions on the night of episode 15 beyond what we saw. I've always thought this from the first watching because of that very abrupt "THE NEXT DAY" cut that happens right after she yells at him that she's feeling sour because she kissed him.

What was it she did to break your heart
Betray your heart and everything
Kiss you with a kiss that wasn't true
It wasn't you at all


This is clearly in reference to Asuka using Shinji for the episode 15 kiss while thinking of Kaji.

Shinji had to have figured it out somehow for it to have hurt him, and I don't think he only figured it out when he looked into her mind in instrumentality. Because the song and that image both make it sound like he reached the realization on that same night.
How did he come to realize it? The only way is if Asuka somehow revealed it. A moment of intimacy seems like the correct opportunity where Asuka would let something like that slip. It also can also explain why the encounter might have gone sour, something that originally seemed at odds with Asuka's cool tone in her "Do you love me?" line.

2) There is a past precedent for Asuka saying something to Shinji in English off-screen.
See this thread.
To make it short, the person who said "I need you." (the English line from EoE's final scene title screen) was Asuka, in response to Shinji's comment: "No one needs me, so it would be better if I didn't exist." This is a certain thing, based on the previous placement of that title screen before it was moved.

"Do you love me?" seems to be something Asuka asked Shinji during a moment of intimacy.
Curiously, the line appears in both Japanese (in the Asuka memory flashback) and in English (in the apparent Shinji memory flashback.) https://youtu.be/PcXGgjyV4WA?t=245

So why are off-screen lines to Shinji showing up in English?
Maybe it's because English is being used as "mind to mind language", or whatever you want to call it. So "I need you" doesn't get expressed in plain Japanese when you're communicating the Instrumentality way, mind to mind.
This scene popped into my mind while thinking about this.
More thought is required on this part (why the lines are in English.) But overall this is an interesting connection.

3) Why does the sex seem to take place on a futon considering they have beds and are rarely seen using the futons (once during the Episode 09 sync training, once during Episode 18)? In small part likely because it would be easier to evade drunk-KO'd Misato by using a different room from their bedrooms, but primarily because Asuka was recreating the conditions that she thought would lead to sex during Episode 09 except making sure that sex happens this time.

As this image shows, Asuka was crushed that Shinji didn't breach the "Wall of Jericho."
Here is that scene. She actually implies sex right before the Wall of Jericho line.
https://streamable.com/v5mkg
Asuka: So where's Misato?
Shinji: At work. She called earlier and said she'll be there all night.
Asuka: So that means we're all alone tonight.
(Asuka enters the futon room)
Asuka: This is the impenetrable Wall of Jericho. Take one step over this wall and you're a dead man.


The way this reads to me is the same way as the circumstances of the kiss. Asuka was awake when she went to lay down with Shinji and he nearly kissed her, her knowledge of what happened the next day confirms that. It seems likely that she stewed on it. Fast forward to episode 15, Asuka straightly asks for a kiss, no subtlety. She forcefully recreates the opportunity that she lost that night by talking about her mother. Amazingly, she actually brings up the topic of their mothers in the second kiss attempt too, but more softly. It seems that it's a topic she wants to talk with him about. Her original tearful utterance of ''mama" was probably meant to bait a question from Shinji on the subject.

Anyway, that's the point I'm trying to make: Asuka stubbornly 'recreates' opportunities she lost with Shinji because she can't stand failure, and I think the sex was another one of those recreated moments. She took him to the "Wall of Jericho" room and did it on the futon, rather than their beds, because that's the original place where she broached the idea and he missed it.
Last edited by anonymaus on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:10 pm

You make a convincing argument.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Blockio » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:19 pm

Its been a while since I last watched the original show, so I dont remember all details, but Im pretty sure there is no real evidence against this theory... good job figuring that out!
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:35 pm

I don't see how that's possible, considering how they hate each other.

Also, there's the whole hedgehog's dilemma that they still have to overcome, which probably wouldn't happen at anytime soon.

And Asuka got dismembered by the MPEs, so I don't think she would've have a child after coming back from instrumentality. Plus, didn't she said that she never wanted to have kids? And she stated "I would rather die than be with you(Shinji)!". And I'm pretty sure she was true to her words, that she means what she says. Isn't Shinji the last person she would rather be with?
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:44 pm

Sex doesn’t require love or preclude hate.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:58 pm

Well... damn. I’m convinced.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby silvermoonlight » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:02 pm

That's a really interesting theory I never thought about that even though I did view the frame in instrumentality where Shinji is naked and Asuka's hair is on his shoulders as possibly pointing towards unfulfilled sexual desire itself.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Blockio » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:15 pm

C.T.1290 wrote:I don't see how that's possible, considering how they hate each other.


The thing is, seeing how both of them are not exactly mentally stable, are probably hiting puberty and have canonically at least kissed once, I cant 100% agree with this... during daytime yes, but darkness/nighttime does pretty weird things to the way you think and feel - best example from the show being Asuka almost snuggling up to Shinji (forgot which episode it was)
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:46 pm

Here's something relevant from the Groundworks, alongside what translations I could find.
It seems mostly like animators having a giggle but still is worth posting.
Image

>Text directly above the lower figures: I'm told this is called sex in the cowgirl position
>Text to the right of them: What a sight to wake up to
LEFT of the #26 in larger characters: "excuse me for greeting you naked"
Underneath that along the very bottom: "hearing you say that sort of thing makes me wither".... (could be interpreted at weak in the knees?... or something more appropriate to English expressions

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:37 pm

If actually true, that's really dumb writing. Shinji isn't comfortable enough to hold her, but he had sex with her? And then WTF is Asuka on about how he never held him? Sex is a great deal many steps beyond holding someone?

It's both out of character and a distraction from their character arcs.
considering how they hate each other.

Nope, no, Asuka didn't hate Shinji by episode 15. That happened a great deal later. At this point they pretty clearly liked each other.
Last edited by Asuka'sBigBrother on Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:41 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:If actually true, that's really dumb writing. Shinji isn't comfortable enough to hold her, but he had sex with her?

I don't think Shinji would have initiated. He's pretty passive though and it's difficult to see him refusing.

In the mind invasion sequence, Asuka chases after Kaji, is shaken off dismissively, and the camera pans to reveal a disinterested looking Shinji as her only option. It would make sense if she went after him rather than the other way around.

And then WTF is Asuka on about how he never held him? Sex is a great deal many steps beyond holding someone?

He doesn't look to be very engaged, or anyway probably not doing what she'd like. In the full pose posted above you can see his arms are even resting limply at his sides.

Per Asuka's own words, she considers sex to be "just an easy way to feel like you're worth something." If the person you're having sex with won't even put their arms around you, isn't that cause for complaint?
Last edited by anonymaus on Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:50 pm

Watching the video, there seems to be a case, though some of the evidence is flaky. The credits bit is pretty decent evidence though.

I really hope not though becase, as said earlier:
It's both out of character and a distraction from their character arcs.

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:He doesn't look to be very engaged, or anyway probably not doing what she'd like. In the full pose posted above you can see his arms are even resting limply at his sides.

Per Asuka's own words, she considers sex to be "just an easy way to feel like you're worth something." If the person you're having sex with won't even put their arms around you, isn't that cause for complaint?


Good point.
Last edited by Asuka'sBigBrother on Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:42 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:If actually true, that's really dumb writing. Shinji isn't comfortable enough to hold her, but he had sex with her? And then WTF is Asuka on about how he never held him? Sex is a great deal many steps beyond holding someone?


Have you never been around teenagers?
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:46 am

Based on this new analysis, this is one of those topics that needs to go near the top of the list of “Things to Ask Hideaki Anno About at a Con.”
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:29 am

What about this is out of character, anyway?

Asuka has a clear Electra thing going on with Misato and Kaji; there’s a mother daughter father dynamic at work, and Asuka sees her dependence on Misato as a threat to her individuality and independence. She doesn’t want a family but she’s being pushed into one anyway. It would make sense for her to lash out by having sex with Shinji, who is son, brother, and husband to Misato wrapped all up in one person. Plus, having sex with him clearly establishes that he is not her brother and he is not family.

Unfortunately for her, Shinji reacts to all this in typical Shinji (and typical fourteen year old boy) fashion; the actual act can be summed up as “getting it over with” and Asuka is the one in control. Shinji, who laid there (excuse the pun) for five minutes and didn’t do anything, wakes up he next day thinking he’s a macho man and act like he invented it until he’s smacked down.

This also adds a whole new context and depth to the masturbation and strangulation scenes in EoE, as well as the line about holding Asuka. It doesn’t make much sense for her to be emotionally devastated that he didn’t hug her during a kiss where she was suffocating him but damn does it make a lot of sense for her to be deeply wounded that he didn’t show any affection during sex.

It also adds a hell of a lot to their final interaction ag the end of the film.

Also, having sex in no way negates the hedgehog’s dilemma. Sex can and often is a slightly different tale on masturbation with a little lore vigor and doesn’t automatically lead to any kind of emotional intimacy. People can be deeply emotionally connected and never have sex at all or have sex three times a day and grow no closer. Evangelion does not in any way take a rosy fairy tale view of love and romance; in many ways it reflects a depressive’s mindset as the depressed person obsesses over how unsatisfying relationships and sex are. (You have to know yourself before you can be known to or know other people)

This is a well supported theory with a great deal of textual evidence to back it up and there’s no real argument against it. It fits into the visuals and themes of the series perfectly.

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Based on this new analysis, this is one of those topics that needs to go near the top of the list of “Things to Ask Hideaki Anno About at a Con.”


Why? We have everything we need to draw a conclusion already. Let the postmodernism flow through you.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Cybermat47 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:09 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Why? We have everything we need to draw a conclusion already. Let the postmodernism flow through you.


To play devil’s advocate, the evidence presented could just be coincidences, paired with us as Eva fans seeing what we want to see.

But again, personally, I think the theory is right.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Joseki » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:15 am

First of all, the video is very nice and the production value is high, great job on that.
The theory itself seems very plausible to me, I can't find anything that could work against it inside the story and the proves you presented are convincing, and personally I think that Shinji and Asuka having sex at some point in the story makes a lot of sense.

At the same time I also feel that it would also be a missed opportunity. I would have liked a possible sexual intercourse between the two main characters being properly established and developed instead of being very subtle. Misato and Kaji had their moment and it wasn't subtle at all. Maybe it has something to do with TV censorship, but the Director's Cut weren't subjected to such limits.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Blockio » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:57 am

Another point that adds to this theory is that both Asuka and Shinji are emotionally instable teenagers who seek confirmation by others at practically any cost. Combine that with the situation it most likely happened in - at night, with them being the only ones present - it would only make sense. The effect darkness has on the human mind should never be underestimated- in this case fear (being alone with the memories) vs lust (being with each other).
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:24 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:To play devil’s advocate, the evidence presented could just be coincidences, paired with us as Eva fans seeing what we want to see.

But again, personally, I think the theory is right.


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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:05 pm

Color me convinced.
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