Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Stillborn » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:46 pm

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:So you say soldier actually can go against his/her duty, if only s/he will be right by the end of the day.

Which of those contradictory ways to judge one's actions is stronger in your opinion? Oh, wait. The one which, at the moment, renders to Shinji being wrong.


In Eva world? That's exactly how it works.

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Now you just read me wrong. All I'm saying is that in this universe Shinji is blamed for being a child and acting like a child. Apparently in his case it's a sin because Shinji acting on his emotions fitting for his age, led to Q and effectively robbed Asuka from her childhood. Later, the same impulses led to the spears fiasco. So yeah. For Shinji to be a child and act like a child is wrong in his own world.

In short - Shinji's fault is being Shinji.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:47 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:It's most likely that Shinji being called at the last moment was intentional from Gendo as a part of the plan. Not a wrong call.


Simply because it's part of Gendo's plan doesn't make it right. In fact, it makes it even more of a mistake.

For Bardiel battle, once again it's only Shinji who is held accountable for wrong decision. AND for endangering NERV with his tantrum. Gendo just played hard commander in harsh times. Shinji was just childish.


Gendo's "hard commander" act was idiotic and arrogant. If he had instructed Shinji to simply subdue 03 and remove the entry plug, then Shinji wouldn't have reacted the way he did, and 01, 02, and 00 could have taken on Zeruel together.

Wille was elaborated to hell and back that they were explaining things to Shinji, but he once again was childish and bailed out. Once again, no ones fault but his.


When did they explain to him that he had caused Near Third Impact, paving the way for Nerv and Seele to initiate Third Impact? All they say is that if he gets in an Eva, they'll kill him. Not exactly helpful.

The only one I could agree with you was about Kaworu making initially wrong call, because Gendo outplayed him. But once again this is pushed aside, since he tried to stop Shinji and then sacrificed himself to stop Shinji's screw up, so he more or less gets absolved.


If Gendo hadn't outplayed Seele, then Seele's Fourth Impact probably would have started instead. Kaworu's manipulation of Shinji blew up in his face (well, actually around his neck)

Kaworu's sacrifice doesn't change the fact that he screwed up.

As long as Shinji works for NERV he is a soldier that's expected to perform his duty.


A forcibly conscripted child soldier with barely any training and at least one mental disorder that would probably make him unfit to join any military force.

Who's the idiot who conscripted this guy - oh :emogendo:
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby ErgoProxy » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:38 am

Stillborn wrote:In Eva world? That's exactly how it works.

Nope. This is how reality works and this is precisely why some seek escape in fiction, while some fully embrace that and adjust to that beyond any tolerable level.

Also, maybe my memory leads me astray, but I think the original installment was far less bitter for Shinji. You had there just „a world filled with sorrow”. But taking Q, which is filled with bitterness distilled, as the hallmark of the whole franchise is not quite accurate. Q is Q, and it got its name after the part of a pagan drama (so a reflection of the Greek tragedy?). The original TV eps, when named meaningfully, were named after stages of development of psyche.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:08 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:In short - Shinji's fault is being Shinji.

In other words, original sin - but only for Shinji...

Even the church, however crass its concept of original sin is when you examine it, applies the concept more even-handedly than this.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:13 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:In other words, original sin - but only for Shinji...

Even the church, however crass its concept of original sin is when you examine it, applies the concept more even-handedly than this.


Yes. Too bad for Shinji that Anno writes his own evangelion, while being less merciful than Abrahamic God.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby xanderkh » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:30 pm

^

Must be frustrating for a socially stunted 14-year old boy with no support structure to live up to impossible expectations when everyone is shouting out different expectations at the same time. :rolleyes:
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Ray » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:56 pm

Getting back on topic.

IF Misato pushed the trigger, knowing full well that it could have been (read, likely was a given it wasn't a given anyone other than Wille could remove the collar) Shinji when she pulled it. . . Would she feel any emotion knowing he was still alive and didn't kill him? More importantly, could she live with herself knowing she INTENDED to kill him and it was just pure longshot coincidence that someone else was wearing it when she did?

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Part of me just wishes Shinji would stop accepting blame, and just do SOMETHING. Lash out, scream, anything at this point. SOMETHING to reassert at least a droplet of autonomy and control over his own life. Even in a messed up selfish way. That's where I am at this point.

That's probably not going to happen, because that's not the message Anno wants to tell. But still.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:09 pm

Shinji did those things after Bardiel, just before ragequitting Nerv. He threatened to destroy as much HQ as he could. Now is the time for forgiveness and understanding.

Also, he never lacks autonomy in Q. If anything, his autonomy is counted upon. His autonomy causes him to run away from Wille, because they were actively trying to remove it from him, which plays him into Gendo's hands. His autonomy also causes him to ignore Kaworu's warning about the spears and pull them both himself, playing himself into Gendo's hands again. Gendo may be a master manipulator, but his brilliance still relies on his pawns believing they're acting with autonomy, and that extends to beyond just Shinji. Making the claim that Shinji lacks autonomy ignores that nearly all the characters share roughly an equal amount of autonomy.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:13 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Yes. Too bad for Shinji that Anno writes his own evangelion, while being less merciful than Abrahamic God.

I'm sure you realise that I was commenting on your interpretation, not Anno's.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Joseki » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:23 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:IF Misato pushed the trigger, knowing full well that it could have been (read, likely was a given it wasn't a given anyone other than Wille could remove the collar) Shinji when she pulled it. . . Would she feel any emotion knowing he was still alive and didn't kill him? More importantly, could she live with herself knowing she INTENDED to kill him and it was just pure longshot coincidence that someone else was wearing it when she did?


I thought about your questions a bit, and I've only got more questions: if Misato pushed the trigger the second time, why she couldn't push it the first time? And more importantly, why would Anno put the first trigger scene at all in the movie and not show the second one? It's difficult for me to answer because I don't see any reason in the movie to believe that Misato pushed the trigger knowing it was on Shinji.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Ray » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:26 pm

Well if that's the case then why does the Q/3.33 FAQ say it's ambiguous as to whether or Not Misato pulled the trigger the second time?
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:31 pm

Anything in the FAQ is only what someone thought at that time; it has no particular authority. To my mind there is no suggestion that Misato used the trigger - I believe that such a major plot point, if true, would have been made clear even if not shown directly.

So since I consider the conditions of the question being posed to be invalid, I have given no thought to the answer.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Joseki » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:38 pm

Did Misato end up using the DSS Choker after all?


Yes: Misato activates the choker when the Wunder is unable to pursue Eva-13 due to engine trouble, leaving her out of options. The choker is also set to Misato's personal passcode.

No: The choker automatically detects Awakenings and triggered itself, tying with the "Awakening Analysis Mode" function. It took so long to actually kill Kaworu because he used his powers to stall the detonation as long as possible. Furthermore, the laws of cinema dictate that any use of the device by Misato would have included an establishing shot -- which is notably absent.


It's ambiguous in the same way it's ambiguous if Rei picked up the SDAT or not. The movie doesn't provide a verbal or visual confirmation, but the existence (or nonexistence) of enstablishing shots is a form of confirmation per se.


Unless Anno goes full Sucide Squad breaking the normal "set up reminder payoff" rule.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Ray » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:47 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Also, he never lacks autonomy in Q. . . Making the claim that Shinji lacks autonomy ignores that nearly all the characters share roughly an equal amount of autonomy.


I'm not going to refute that in detail here, I'm just going to say you're wrong.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:49 pm

The major difference between Misato's first opportunity to pull the trigger, versus when the detonator actually went off, is that in the prior instance, she would have killed him as a precaution. In the latter instance, the threat of Impact was immediate and very real.

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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:03 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Well if that's the case then why does the Q/3.33 FAQ say it's ambiguous as to whether or Not Misato pulled the trigger the second time?

The whole idea was to try not to sound authoritative about such an ambiguous and open-ended movie, merely attempt to help viewers collect their thoughts after watching it. Hence framing things we can't be certain about as "if yes, then A; if no, then B". It's left to the reader to decide which outcome is more likely.

Also worth keeping in mind that it hasn't been updated much since the outburst of discussion following the Japanese home video release. Since everyone has had a number of years to think about the film, there's obviously a bit of housekeeping that needs to be done.

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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:04 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I'm not going to refute that in detail here

I really think you should, for what is a discussion without the detail?
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Ray » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:11 pm

The discussion is supposed to be related to Misato using Shinjis explosive Jewelery, not discussing whether or not Shinji has more or less autonomy, freedom, or culpability than the rest of the cast.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:35 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I thought about your questions a bit, and I've only got more questions: if Misato pushed the trigger the second time, why she couldn't push it the first time?


Because Fourth Impact wasn't underway the first time.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby xyz346 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:47 pm

If Misato hesitated pulling the trigger when Shinji was leaving and even expressed concern for him during Fourth Impact, I find it hard to believe she would have killed Kaworu. It would be poor writing if she actually did it - why shows scenes indicating that Misato still cared about Shinji only to yank it away?
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