Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Ray » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:51 pm

I was perusing the 3.33 FAQ and came across this.

Did Misato end up using the DSS Choker after all?

Yes: Misato activates the choker when the Wunder is unable to pursue Eva-13 due to engine trouble, leaving her out of options. The choker is also set to Misato's personal passcode.

No: The choker automatically detects Awakenings and triggered itself, tying with the "Awakening Analysis Mode" function. It took so long to actually kill Kaworu because he used his powers to stall the detonation as long as possible. Furthermore, the laws of cinema dictate that any use of the device by Misato would have included an establishing shot -- which is notably absent.


Obviously, if Misato did end up pulling the Trigger she would know that it wasn't Shinji since the DSS choker detected a Blue pattern (though it was somewhat ambiguous to if they knew Shinji wasn't an Angelic abomination) which definitely checks out since Kaworu is definitely Angelic.

Assuming Misato DID pull the DSS choker and it wasn't automatically designed to go off?

1) Assuming she knew it wasn't Shinji, would he blame her for killing (Supposedly) the last person who ever cared for him? Denial and deflection is a step on the way to acceptance.

2) Assuming she was out of options and pulled the trigger, assuming she still thought it was Shinji wearing it when she pulled the trigger. How will she react to finding out he's alive? How will Shinji react to finding out she pulled the trigger believing she was killing him and not Kaworu?
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Joseki » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:24 pm

Shinji is at the lowest possible point, I can't see him getting worse no matter what he'll learn or see in the next movie, after Kaworu's death he's unresponsive and catatonic, only Asuka's "you didn't come to help me" caused a reaction in the form of curling some more.
In that state, if Misato pulled the trigger for Kaworu, I can see him feeling slightly more guilty over Kaworu's death without feeling anything negative for Misato.
If Misato pulled the trigger knowing on Shinji I don't think that this will make feel Shinji any worse at all, he already expect to be hated by anyone.
However if Shinji gets pressured enough something may click in his head and he would accuse Wille and Misato in particular for their past failures, both as a motherly figure and a leader, and he's extremely good at hitting the other's weakspots, as he inadvertedly did with Misato in 1.0 and Gendo in 2.0.

That said, I don't think she pulled the trigger since the movie only shows her inability to pull it the first time.
Last edited by Joseki on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Rei IV » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:52 pm

At this point, Shinji would probably blame himself, especially for not heeding Kaworu's plea to not continue their original mission to retrieve the spears.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:12 pm

I'm pretty sure Shinji would blame Misato when he finds out that she pulled the trigger and hate her for it and other Wille members for what they put him through, just as much as he hates himself for the damage he caused. Though at this point, I don't see him giving any kind of reaction while he's still in comatose. And like the End of Evangelion, he'll most likely wallow in self pity and self hatred before letting his grief build up to a point where decides to set off another impact and kill everyone. And this time, there will be no coming back from it (unless Shinji decides to give them a second chance, reset the world and restore life, while making a decision that would ultimately cost him his life where people would live happily without him, or grieves for his loss, that is if they still care enough about him).

Short answer, maybe, but not anytime soon.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Cosmo11 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:07 am

Honestly, I can only see him blaming himself for what happened even if it turned out that Misato intervened.

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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:51 am

^

I'm pretty sure that's the general gist of what may happen. Shinji would be too distraught with guilt to blame Misato, even if she pulled the trigger somehow.

Shinji's the kind of person who believes that he's always in the wrong, that everyone else somehow is right all the time, and he was born in the wrong, or has no right to BE right, unless it's somebody telling him what to do.

And unless something is done to give away to this belief system, given his track record as of late, he may permanently regress to that belief that he IS fundamentally wrong. Not just in his decisions or his choices, but himself.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:42 pm

I thought the choker activated due to Gendo, given his "the deicide is completed" line...
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Joseki » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:51 pm

The only deus in the movie was Lilith, I presumed he was referring to that and not Kaworu.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:37 pm

I think he will mostly blame himself but I do wonder if there's going to be a scene like the one in 1.0 where there standing off and he shoves her away aggressively from him to mirror the scene where she gets angry with him over disobeying her orders, since Anno loves to create mirrors and cycles of events.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:03 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Shinji's the kind of person who believes that he's always in the wrong, that everyone else somehow is right all the time, and he was born in the wrong, or has no right to BE right, unless it's somebody telling him what to do.


Huh? Isn't that exactly how it is in the movies? Not only something that he believes?
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby xanderkh » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:07 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Huh? Isn't that exactly how it is in the movies? Not only something that he believes?


..........

No. How many times have we been over this: It was a combined failure and miscommunication on everyone's part, not just Shinji's.

Everyone fucked up.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Stillborn » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:08 am

It doesn't seem like it. I'm asking seriously - name one instant when Shinji made a call on his own, that WASN'T a fuck up. The only case I can call similiar would be Shamshel, but even that was considered tactically wrong and worked only by dumb luck.
In every other case? Shinji is wrong everyone else is right. If something goes wrong it can be tracked back to Shinji not cooperating with people who are right. This is pretty much all accross the movies and much more prevalent in Q.

In Final Shinji will blame himself for Kaworu blowing up, other people will blame Shinji for not listening to them, and leading to this mess AND they will blame Kaworu for simple fact of being an Angel. THAT may actually shake Shinji a bit, but not enough to do anything meaningful.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:33 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:It doesn't seem like it. I'm asking seriously - name one instant when Shinji made a call on his own, that WASN'T a fuck up.


- Leaving 01 to rescue Rei immediately after the battle with Ramiel
- Returning to 01 to defeat Zeruel.
- Using the Eva catapults to force Zeruel further away from Lilith.

And I would say that continuing the engagement with Shamshel does count. It was very risky, and motivated by emotion rather than tactical thinking, but it worked.

In every other case? Shinji is wrong everyone else is right.


Shinji is wrong more than he's right, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is right.

Would the battle with Sachiel have been so difficult at first if Gendo had simply called for Shinji earlier, so that he could be trained properly?

Would he have let Bardiel nearly kill him if Gendo had simply explained that Asuka's only real hope for survival was for Shinji to subdue the Angel and take out the entry plug?

Would he have left with 09 if Wille had treated him with some compassion, and explained things to him?

Would he have pulled the spears out of Lilith if Kaworu hadn't said "you murdered most people for nothing, and the survivors all hate you, but if you take these spears out of the big dead white thing, everything's going to be fine"?
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby xanderkh » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:57 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Shinji is wrong more than he's right, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is right.

Would the battle with Sachiel have been so difficult at first if Gendo had simply called for Shinji earlier, so that he could be trained properly?

Would he have let Bardiel nearly kill him if Gendo had simply explained that Asuka's only real hope for survival was for Shinji to subdue the Angel and take out the entry plug?

Would he have left with 09 if Wille had treated him with some compassion, and explained things to him?

Would he have pulled the spears out of Lilith if Kaworu hadn't said "you murdered most people for nothing, and the survivors all hate you, but if you take these spears out of the big dead white thing, everything's going to be fine"?


Well it's no wonder Shinji breaks down after all this shit that's been put on him, thanks to the machinations of his father.

He does nothing: People die.

He tries to act: People die.

It doesn't help that he's being pulled in multiple directions, each telling him what to do is "right".

But I digress, cause after all this, Shinji is going to need something positive to bring him out of his funk soon, or else he's going to regress so far, there's no coming back.
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Golbz:.............
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Stillborn » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:57 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:- Leaving 01 to rescue Rei immediately after the battle with Ramiel
- Returning to 01 to defeat Zeruel.
- Using the Eva catapults to force Zeruel further away from Lilith.


Hmm. You have a point. I forgot about those. Probably because it feels like Q invalidated them all and began piling Shinji's screw ups.
Tough it's good to know Shinji made some some non catastrophic choices in his life.

However for this part


View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Shinji is wrong more than he's right, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is right.

Would the battle with Sachiel have been so difficult at first if Gendo had simply called for Shinji earlier, so that he could be trained properly?

Would he have let Bardiel nearly kill him if Gendo had simply explained that Asuka's only real hope for survival was for Shinji to subdue the Angel and take out the entry plug?

Would he have left with 09 if Wille had treated him with some compassion, and explained things to him?

Would he have pulled the spears out of Lilith if Kaworu hadn't said "you murdered most people for nothing, and the survivors all hate you, but if you take these spears out of the big dead white thing, everything's going to be fine"?


It's most likely that Shinji being called at the last moment was intentional from Gendo as a part of the plan. Not a wrong call.

For Bardiel battle, once again it's only Shinji who is held accountable for wrong decision. AND for endangering NERV with his tantrum. Gendo just played hard commander in harsh times. Shinji was just childish.

Wille was elaborated to hell and back that they were explaining things to Shinji, but he once again was childish and bailed out. Once again, no ones fault but his.

The only one I could agree with you was about Kaworu making initially wrong call, because Gendo outplayed him. But once again this is pushed aside, since he tried to stop Shinji and then sacrificed himself to stop Shinji's screw up, so he more or less gets absolved.

It's pretty much only Shinji, who is shown to be making mistakes. Any mistake other people make? It's at worst not accounting for Shinji screwing up.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:58 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Any mistake other people make? It's at worst not accounting for Shinji screwing up.

When Asuka fights Shinji, it seems to me that she started without a full battery charge; also her spare battery was not being kept sufficiently close and ready. by Mari. The length of time Unit 2 keeps operating when she is trying to stop Mark 9 afterwards shows how long a full battery could have lasted.

When ReiQ comes for Shinji, they might (or might not, who knows?) have got his attention better by saying "That's just a clone of Rei, not the one you knew!" instead of simply denying what he thought he was hearing.

Gendo just played hard commander in harsh times. Shinji was just childish.

Shinji is a child - mindlessly playing "hard commander" rather than showing some understanding of your troops is a mistake, and the punishment that follows is bluster to cover that up. Misato would most likely have been able to get through to him.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Stillborn » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:58 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:When Asuka fights Shinji, it seems to me that she started without a full battery charge; also her spare battery was not being kept sufficiently close and ready. by Mari. The length of time Unit 2 keeps operating when she is trying to stop Mark 9 afterwards shows how long a full battery could have lasted.


This can be justified that they were on time limit. A very pressing time limit, to stop an Angel and an idiot from destroying the world. Again. So they operated with what they had.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Shinji is a child - mindlessly playing "hard commander" rather than showing some understanding of your troops is a mistake, and the punishment that follows is bluster to cover that up. Misato would most likely have been able to get through to him.


As long as Shinji works for NERV he is a soldier that's expected to perform his duty. And yet his refusal to fight endangered the operation, and by proxy endangered multiple lives, so Gendo had to take matter in his own hands and ultimately saved people from Angel. Later Shinji once again endangered multiple people including non combat personnel, in a fit of rage. It doesn't matter if we consider Gendo's actions to be dickish or unpleasant. By the end of the day, in that circumstances, Gendo's decision was right, and Shinji was in the wrong. Twice. And ultimately, that's what will matter to people, since once again, wider scope is more important than personal one.

By the time of third movie, Shinji is the only child left from original pilots, and Asuka uses that as an insult, so apparently it IS wrong for Shinji to be a child in Q-world.
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:17 pm

Saying that it's wrong for a child to be a child is just a way of saying that you don't care about them as a person. But since that seems to be your default position here it's no surprise, nor do I expect any counter examples to change your view (they're for other people who may read the thread in the future, really).
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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby ErgoProxy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:32 pm

Stillborn wrote:As long as Shinji works for NERV he is a soldier that's expected to perform his duty.

Let's assume this line as valid, to not to break the Godwin's Law. Then you say this:

Stillborn wrote:By the end of the day, in that circumstances, Gendo's decision was right, and Shinji was in the wrong.

So you say soldier actually can go against his/her duty, if only s/he will be right by the end of the day.

Which of those contradictory ways to judge one's actions is stronger in your opinion? Oh, wait. The one which, at the moment, renders to Shinji being wrong.

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Re: Will Shinji Blame Misato If She Killed Kaworu With The Choker?

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Postby Joseki » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:09 pm

Thread got hijacked really fast :lol:

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Any mistake other people make?


Asuka in Q is wrong most of the time. She had a understandable but unjustifiable tantrum in her first reunion with Shinji, she relentlessly charged Eva 13 without even realizing that she was runinng out of battery and stubbornly ordered Shinji to stop without telling him why.
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