The Shinji Ikari Rebuild Project

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:28 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Darn and I worked so hard on this too.

And it shows in the writing, which I like. Apart from that, you already know my views don't mesh with yours, which is why my fic takes a different direction too. Nothing wrong with that; but what I'm missing here is sufficient continuity with what came before. It can, of course, be argued that Q itself did the same (though the time skip helped in that case) - but if you look, the reasons for the changes in the characters were there to be found, and elements of their previous selves could also be discerned. I'm not so much asking you to change your story - where it goes is for you to decide - but to try to tie it in a bit better with what came before.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
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Avatar: Shinji feels oddly embarrassed sharing a bath with Kaworu (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... a post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:46 pm

Don't get discouraged. Just keep the feedback in mind and see what you can do with it!

The problem I'm seeing here is that the soldiers and other members of Wille are being really combative with each other for no apparent reason. Like I understand them being angry at Shini but not so much the sniping between Misato and Asuka, or the grunts at Misato and Sakura. Misato does tolerate some reasonable questioning of her orders, like the Wunder's bridge crew when they launched. These soldiers sound more like the smug JSDF soldier who tried to execute Shinji in EoE. They can show apprehension about Misato's orders, just try have them be respectful about it.

Writing the military side of Eva isn't easy if you're not already familiar with rules, regulations and procedures. It's the reason I've never even tried writing Eva fic.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:06 pm

^

That's been one of the big issues I've had with the story, since I'm in the military: I am biased in this regard, so when I see professional troops acting like this, I'm just counting down the time to when officers start getting fragged and troops start knifing each other in the barracks.

Further, there is the disconnect in continuity. If that's what you want to do, that's fine: this is your story, write it like you call it. Just remember that you need to be prepared for people who will be jarred by the differences in the way you present the crew of the Wunder versus the way they were last presented to us
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Stillborn » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:55 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Some say "Shinji will get out happy!" while others like you say 'Shinji will die in Final!".


I never claimed that Shinji will die in FINAL quite the opposite. He will live because death is not humilating enough. Shinji must leave unwanted aftertaste in fandom's mouth like after EoE. Killing him would be giving him too much credit.

I say that just to set your comment straight. I don't want to derail thread.
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Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:03 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Ugh.

Darn and I worked so hard on this too. I even asked El Mariachi to beta for me.


Ray, is absolutely is not my intent to discourage you. As I said before, I think you're a fine writer and I want you to continue your story for as long as you care to tell it. I and others are just pointing out a disconnect that you might want to address to keep events in your story consistent with the tone of Q.

Here's an honest question: do you see what we mean when we talk about that disconnect? Do you recognize how the characters you're portraying are different from what's already been presented to us, or do you feel they are consistent? I ask because the answer might help explain why Q was so troublesome for you.

Stillborn: You're not helping.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby xanderkh » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:15 pm

@Stillborn And yet, there are still TONS of people, on this site even, who still look at Shinji with good regard as a character and a person, with little-to-no aftertaste in regards to him. What does that make us Stillborn? Less of people just because we care about a person who struggles?

@Ray And Ray, don't worry too much about your fic. We're just offering constructive criticism so it can work well in a story-telling medium. You are a good writer so far, as you have a key attention to detail when describing your characters, that's REALLY good for a beginner.

And as for Q, I think it would be helpful in explaining your point of view of Q to explain the behavior of the characters compared to what we've observed. We want to understand so we can help.

"Help us to help you." :)
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:29 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:@Stillborn And yet, there are still TONS of people, on this site even, who still look at Shinji with good regard as a character and a person, with little-to-no aftertaste in regards to him. What does that make us Stillborn? Less of people just because we care about a person who struggles?


That makes you EGF users. A tiny percent of internet community compared to the haters. An even smaller number if you add sceptics like myself.
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby xanderkh » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:45 pm

^

Hardly. Considering the amount of tumblr users I've found, reddit forums, anime sites, and the sheer number of fics and doujinshi that try to give a happy ending, that fact ALONE should show that it hardly qualifies a "tiny percent" of the internet.
People are a lot more empathetic than you think they are Stillborn. And RAY here qualifies as one of them who cares about Shinji.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:55 pm

What makes you think I don't care? I just know what to expect. Less disappointment. That still doesn't make me approve or enjoy Shinji bashing I see on DA or in fanfics (and not only in Eva fics) OR watching him constantly fail because canon plot demands so. Shinji being a fail is pretty much meme now and it seems that was the point.
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:58 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:What makes you think I don't care? I just know what to expect. Less disappointment. That still doesn't make me approve or enjoy Shinji bashing I see on DA or in fanfics (and not only in Eva fics) OR watching him constantly fail because canon plot demands so. Shinji being a fail is pretty much meme now and it seems that was the point.


But in NGE and up through Ha Shinji wasn't fail so I don't even know what you're talking about here. Since when does success equal failure? It doesn't make any sense.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby xanderkh » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:03 pm

Proclaiming that Shinji is destined to fail and expecting nothing but negative vibes about him is NOT the same as saying you care about Shinji's plight. It's even less than saying that you don't care about him at all. If anything, it says you NOTHING him. You don't expect anything good because you don't desire any change because you think it's set in stone, cause it's NOT. In fact, AGAIN, I don't think I've heard you say anything ONCE positive about Shinji at all. Just that he's a failure, and that he's doomed to failure cause of "CANON PLOT".

And Shinji hasn't failed, at least in the regard YOU say him he does. He gave humanity a chance to come back from a fate worse than death: the death of the self.
Just because someone makes a mistake, do you stop caring for them and treat them like dirt, even if they didn't mean it? Maybe in your neck of the woods, but people aren't always like that.

They have the capacity to forgive and allow redemption, which you seem to fail to grasp, and what RAY here is trying to accomplish.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:08 pm

This all hinges an what you consider success. I see indecisive kid that gave half hearted order to wipe out mankind and then moped some more and changed his mind and allowed mankind to creawl back towards the future he made worse. And then he cried. Again. I hardly see this as success.

It was clusterfuck.

Believe me, if Shinji was intentionally evil and just killed everyone without regreds, he would get less hate than he has now, for being a "crying, meh guy" that can't follow up with anything.
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby xanderkh » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:10 pm

^

Alright then, with that explanation in mind, how does that qualify as caring about him at all?

It sounds like you hold him in less regard then even haters do.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:13 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:This all hinges an what you consider success.


Defeating all of the fucking Angels is success. There is no way to spin that otherwise, sorry. You're just wrong here.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Stillborn » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:25 pm

^^

Because I don't blame him for that. I blame the chess master that set him up to this. Otherwise, he could be a simple nobody that his personality is fitting for him to be.

But he is dragged into spotlight of a show that does not fit him and is constantly humilated by how out of place he is in this role (this is from meta point, not specific events in the series/movies).

I remember that Asuka told him to stop apologizing for everything, but from bigger picture he is forced to apologize for not fitting the role he has ben pushed into. To mankind, to WILLE and to fandom.

Oh but wait. In NTE he actually decided to do something with his own agenda for once, just like everyone else there. Yeah, he definitely need to apologize for that. Just look what it made to the world. Clearly he is the only one at fault there and must beg for forgiveness... (that was sarcasm, in case you didn't notice).

I just accepted that he will inevitably be even more embarassed in FINAL. I just don't hate him for that. If that's not care... Well then my wording was bad. But I don't see how you care about him either if you just wan't him to keep apologizing.

@Bagheera.

Success for WHO?
It was supposed to happen and was part of Gendo/Yui/SEELE's plan. Shinji was just as much of a tool they used as the Eva's. And if that tool wasn't sufficent, Yui was doing things herself.

Aside from clearing the path for three conspirators to start their shit, Shinji didn't win anything.
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby Ray » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:32 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:^
I am biased in this regard, so when I see professional troops acting like this, I'm just counting down the time to when officers start getting fragged and troops start knifing each other in the barracks.


Funny you should say that. . .
SPOILER: Show
since I've got something like that planned down the line.


I didn't put anything offensive in their did I ? I'm a civilian so I didn't mean to put anything in that would offend a Real World soldier.

I just wanted to get across the fact that these guys have been living in hell for the last decade and a half, and now hell has just gotten a whole lot worse and is GOING to get even worse after that once Gendo uses his own Awakened Eva. All because of one stupid boy, and the fact that their Commander In Chief didn't do exactly what she said she'd do out of sentiment for the one who seemingly single-handedly ruined their lives.

I'm trying to portray the crew as human beings in an unreasonable situation that's getting progressively more unreasonable.

]Further, there is the disconnect in continuity. If that's what you want to do, that's fine: this is your story, write it like you call it. Just remember that you need to be prepared for people who will be jarred by the differences in the way you present the crew of the Wunder versus the way they were last presented to us[/quote]

I always imagined Wille as a group of people who did lots of Amoral things in the name of Mankind's long term survival. Some of them regret it after the fact, but they literally have no other options. Others give into it and revel in the amoral things they do in order to cope with the madness of the horrid situation they find themselves in.

[quote="Xander wrote:
And as for Q, I think it would be helpful in explaining your point of view of Q to explain the behavior of the characters compared to what we've observed. We want to understand so we can help.


What I feel about Q the movie is not just dark but unnecessarily dark. Despair for the sake of despair. The kind of despair in a work that makes me angry and apathetic. Why should I care for these people if they're just as willing to mistreat a traumatized 14 year old as Gendo is?

I admit I'm biased. Against Q and everything in it. I've never been emotionally destroyed by a film before. . . and I'm a fan of Horror movies!

As for the Wunder crew. We barely got to spend any time with them so I can't honestly say anything about their characters on the Wunder. At this point my greatest struggle is to avoid giving into my Bias and portraying them all as irredeemable A-holes.

This is Especially true when it comes to Misato. Of all the people in Eva, I never thought She'd be the one to abandon Shinji. . .

Relax. I'm not going to make this a revenge-fic. But I still have trouble.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:32 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Success for WHO?


For humanity, which would have been utterly annihilated if the Angels had their way.

Again, sorry man, but you're just wrong here. No amount of spin will change the fact that Shinji was enormously successful throughout most of his career. So stop spewing bullshit and get a fucking clue already.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby xanderkh » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:38 pm

@Stillborn

The fact that you regard him as a "simple nobody" in terms of a personality proves pretty much to all of us how you regard Shinji to be in terms of a person, which is sad by the way, as he's FAR stronger than you think he is. In Instrumentality, he could've just gone with it, and become even less of a "nobody" that you regard him to be, but instead he chose to keep his individuality and become a somebody, even if it meant pain, cause even with pain, the relationships he had formed with Misato, Asuka, and everyone else was more worth it than the pain he endured.

And there's a difference between apologizing for making an honest mistake and trying to own up for your failures, then just apologizing to not make someone mad at you for a mistake that wasn't even your fault to begin with, and there's a huge difference between the two, regarding Shinji's circumstance in the Original and Rebuild.

In the original, he constantly apologized because he believed that if he wasn't perfect, then nobody would care for him and abandon him, like his father did. But, in the original series, it showed that even though he wasn't perfect, he could still be loved and cared for by those around him.

Rebuild, he NEED to show that he's regretful for his actions because they honestly were a mistake this time, but showing that he wants to atone for his mistakes, instead of just erasing them just so he can make people like him again, is more mature choice than just running away from his problems. And yes Stillborn, we can still care for him, despite all the "mistakes" he's made, because we understand he's a flawed human being and capable of redemption.

YOU on the other hand just want to leave him as he is because you apparently can't see any other ways for him to grow, unless he's a shining Bishonen with more muscles than Swartzenager, and having no visible flaws at all. Apparently, when it comes to you and success, it's all or nothing.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:39 pm

Oh I got a clue. Both you and xander act like your interpretation is the only true and valid and keep insulting me like I'm a retard for disagreeing with you and having different point of view from yours. I refrained from posting here, because with the sticker you put on me, any praise from me would lower the quality of work in your eyes. This time I originally just tried to encourage Ray to check different opinions than just EGF but you dragged me into another argument.

I'm going to sleep. You may consider this your enormous success and feel better about showing me my place. :rolleyes:
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:42 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Oh I got a clue.
\

No, you don't. You keep spewing the same old bullshit, even though you've been proven wrong time and time again. Give it a rest already. No one's buying what you're selling.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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