Mark.09 and the SEELE program

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Another specific topic thread: What is the nature, purpose and operation of the SEELE program which takes over Mark.09.

Mark.09 is taken over by this SEELE program, visualised by the logo appearing all over the entry plug. This occurs after the 12th Angel surrounds Eva-13, as Rei-Q is staring at the giant Rei face forming in the core.

SEELE Program  SPOILER: Show

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Rei-Q does not seem to have expected this, and later winders why that the "link" is not being restored. Mysteriously though, she is still able to maintain (presumably radio) contact with Asuka. (But perhaps she is psychically broadcasting as she did with Shinji in the interrogation room).

Anyway, Mark.09, under the control of this program, tries to take over the Wunder. Of most note here is the fact that the program's "data" seem s to be transmitted via the "blue (core) goop" tendrils that Mark.09 morphs into. How is "data" transmitted through this substances?

Wunder 'data' hijack  SPOILER: Show

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Midori Unable to reject the Adams' Vessel!
Tama Unidentified data is infiltrating the main control system!
Aoba It's hijacking control of the ship!

The presence of the Logos makes it clear that the (now "deceased" Seele) are the source of the program.

Without even getting into the mechanics of all this, I this there are some basic questions we can ask about this program.

1. What is the purpose of the program? What are its "orders" or imperatives?
2. Why does the program activate when it does? Why not earlier or later?
3. If the program is capable of so much why is Rei-Q even in Mark.09 in the first place?
4. Is this a normal computer program, or is it something more? A type of angel/eva/entity?

I think this thread could go in a lot of directions, but I think basic questions about the purpose of the program are a good place to start.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I wonder if Seele wasn’t defeated, but merely transferred/copied into Mark.09’s core. It seems as though they have already achieved some form of transhumanism in NTE anyway, seeing as how Q shows us that those monoliths don’t represent living human individual on the other end of a communication line. If that’s the case, then it could be that Seele is trying to literally transplant themselves into the AAA Wunder.

I’m not sure what their motivation for this would be, though. But of the theory that the AAA Wunder is built from a defeated Angel holds any water, then I would go onto to assume that Seele needs that particular Angel for something, probably involving Final Impact.

If that is the case, then I’m not sure what that purpose would be.

[qu4d]

Can't unsee the smiley face anymore

[Th3Marauder]

Mostly unrelated, but I don't think that was Rei Q "psychically" talking to Shinji on the Wunder, it was Rei II talking through the SDAT.

[Jinroh]

It's like 90% of what happens in this movie: can't be explained because of a lack of information that most probably won't be provided in the final movie.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

But that's how Evangelion has always been. I for one am not expecting any useful infodumps in Final.

I wonder if Seele wasn’t defeated, but merely transferred/copied into Mark.09’s core. It seems as though they have already achieved some form of transhumanism in NTE anyway, seeing as how Q shows us that those monoliths don’t represent living human individual on the other end of a communication line. If that’s the case, then it could be that Seele is trying to literally transplant themselves into the AAA Wunder.

I have to admit that the program could actually be Seele never occured to me! It certainly would explain the appearance of the Seele logos, and perhaps the Mask. We're being visually shown that Mark.09 is now "Seele", or at least heavily associated to them. Your point about humanitarianism is also at the fore here. When we speak of "Seele" in Rebuild, we may be dealing with transhuman "data" all along.

Combining this idea with the transmission of data, from Mark.09 to the Wunder, through the "blue goop" could lead to a new interpretation of the "core effect". Maybe the core effect, in the goop, in cores, an on the older Seele monoliths, represents data or a medium capable of holding and transmitting data?

But of the theory that the AAA Wunder is built from a defeated Angel holds any water, then I would go onto to assume that Seele needs that particular Angel for something, probably involving Final Impact.

From its actions, It seems reasonable to conclude that the program -- which is perhaps Seele themselves -- intended to hijack the Wunder, using the Adams vessel. Perhaps Seele intended to use the Wunder as their own vessel(ship or container), to "sail" as masters though instrumentality. Or perhaps they simply needed to destroy it to prevent anyone stopping instrumentality.

Misato say that the Wunder has the "power to kill gods". Gendo also mentions that he will complete the Deicide. Was Gendo supposed to use the Wunder to complete or end Instrumentality? Or is his own "Nemesis bridge" ship capable of this? There are definitely some possibilities worth exploring here.

In any case, it's worth noting that Seele themselves are destroyed by Gendo, in what seems to be a pre-agreed "suicide pact". If they had copied or transmitted themselves to Mark.09, and Mark.09 was supposed to take over the Wunder, then the divergence between Gendo and Seele's plan may be very small indeed.

Can't unsee the smiley face anymore

Now that you've brought it up, I was also going to mention that some of the symbols which appear in the Seele program logo are similar to the diagrams on the Eva control system protoype. Maybe the Seele program is based off such a control system.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Your point about humanitarianism is also at the fore here. When we speak of "Seele" in Rebuild, we may be dealing with transhuman "data" all along.

This could mean some scary things for the NTE series. Gendo thinks Seele for giving them civilization and such, which, if this is true, could be taken to mean that the transhuman data in the Seele monoliths were present throughout Earth’s history. This could tie them closer to the Far, if they are not the FAR themselves in NTE.

But that’s a LOT more speculation than I have the brain power to try and support this late in the evening. Rather than sticking to my guns about accusing Seele of being FAR in this universe just yet, I’m just gonna settle with the idea that they might have found a way to implant their very selves into the Seele Program.

[ElMariachi]

Here's my various two cents:

1. What is the purpose of the program? What are its "orders" or imperatives?

Probably simply to go straight to the Wunder and merge back with it. Even thought Gendo said that SEELE were silent since some time in Q, I really doubt that they didn't kept tabs on the situation of the war, and they know that WILLE have the AAA Wunder while they have its "original master", and that they need Shinji Ikari to pilot EVA-13 alongside Kaworu Nagisa, so WILLE would very probably get their hands on EVA-01 to power that troublesome ship, hence the program installed as part of their contingency plans to take care of the AAA Wunder in case it shows up fully powered to try to stop the HIP.

2. Why does the program activate when it does? Why not earlier or later?

It activated when it detected the 12th Angel, because then that would meant hat the spears were retrieved by EVA-13, which was the point of no-return in SEELE's plan of Instrumentality, so WILLE would certainly launch an all-out attack to try to stop it, including directly attacking with the AAA Wunder (which they did in Q). It wasn't activated earlier because it was their ace in the hole, remember that WILLE didn't even discovered that Mark.09 was an ADAM's Vessel until Mari blew off its head in 3.0! The timing to use that ace had to be perfect so WILLE wouldn't had time to counter it and be a nuisance to the HIP, and it accomplished its mission perfectly, since even after Mark.09 was destroyed alongside EVA-02, the Wunder needed time to restart its main engine, putting them out of the game to stop Fourth Impact.

3. If the program is capable of so much why is Rei-Q even in Mark.09 in the first place?

Again, to keep their ace in the hole secret for as long as possible. It's also possible that the "awakened" Mark.09 doesn't understand basic orders beyond "search, destroy & hack the big flying robotic turkey", for example it probably wouldn't had been able to carry out the operation to retrieve Shinji from the Wunder, but would had instead rampaged the place.

4. Is this a normal computer program, or is it something more? A type of angel/eva/entity?

The Mark.09 itself is probably a mix of Angelic entity (the "ADAM's Vessel) with some magitek added in the mix to make it take an humanoid form to be piloted and used during the war. For the program itself, I would lean toward being a normal computer program, a very advanced version of the Dummy System.

[Chuckman]

It's like 90% of what happens in this movie: can't be explained because of a lack of information that most probably won't be provided in the final movie.

Evangelion explains everything, but with the audacity to demand you figure it out on your own rather than listen to two characters have a conversation about something they both already know.

Except for the part in EoE where Misato recaps the plot of the series to her steering wheel. I'll give them a mulligan on that one.

[K40s]

Just wanted to point out this info I saw in another thread about Mark.09:

http://forum.evageeks.org/post/745119/What-are-the-Adams/#745119
http://forum.evageeks.org/post/745135/What-are-the-Adams/#745135

It seems an action figure came out and it identifies Mark.09 as:
* "the first Adams' Vessel", implying that there are more?,
* a "Seele Type", confirming it was made by Seele?, and
* that the transformation we saw was "Midway through switching forms", implying that it has a final form we didn't see?

[unitM]

Thanks for the page break Sachi! I love you like I love my obese hamster.

I've actually also considered the idea of SEELE being put into Mark. I think it's a good one, though it certainly can be viewed as a stretch to many. Things that support it are the SEELE mask placed over the Mark's core, while the Mark itself was a full core, Mark's second most prominent attack being a hostile takeover move(where it literally roots itself into it's host), and it just generally being some real strange shit.

If it were SEELE's really last moment staged as an attack, it only makes sense for the Mark unit to have an ability to pass on it's legacy. It came equipped with that ability; it's tendrils took over the Wunder. It had other prominent abilities, sure, but it came with an ability to pass on itself elsewhere. Of course it would. Everything was on the line for SEELE. It's almost certain that they would possess an ability to make a duplicate of themselves in some way on the brink of survival. It's function certainly matches up what we'd expect to see.

Kaworu made a comment: Her[Rei's] soul is elsewhere. Shinjis "interrogation" of Rei alludes to it. What if Rei simply has no soul in her Mark? This way, she can successfully "pilot" one inhabited by SEELE. When Gendou switches off SEELE, we start seeing the oddities about the Mark emerge. This could have been it awakening. Gendou did not expect Rei to develop a soul this early on though, and as humans, when we feel suspicious of ourselves being strictly controlled, one of our learned reflexes is to get scared. Her flight instinct kicked in and she took off. But before then, though she was growing fondly more suspicious, she was still a soulless creature.

[Fredsq]

If it were SEELE's really last moment staged as an attack, it only makes sense for the Mark unit to have an ability to pass on it's legacy. It came equipped with that ability; it's tendrils took over the Wunder. It had other prominent abilities, sure, but it came with an ability to pass on itself elsewhere. Of course it would. Everything was on the line for SEELE. It's almost certain that they would possess an ability to make a duplicate of themselves in some way on the brink of survival. It's function certainly matches up what we'd expect to see.

Sorry for the bump but you gave me an idea, although highly speculative it could make sense:
what if SEELE literally switched teams? They could have moved on to WILLE’s Wunder software (very possible) because Gendou’s too stubborn and has his own agenda, whereas WILLE might be more suitable now to their final goal. It even makes sense with Keel Lorenz's last speech, it could mean Gendou’s done his part and "now we’ll manipulate the other side bai”.

[unitM]

Sorry for the bump but you gave me an idea, although highly speculative it could make sense:
what if SEELE literally switched teams? They could have moved on to WILLE’s Wunder software (very possible) because Gendou’s too stubborn and has his own agenda, whereas WILLE might be more suitable now to their final goal. It even makes sense with Keel Lorenz's last speech, it could mean Gendou’s done his part and "now we’ll manipulate the other side bai”.

I think they moved onto WILLE's software because they need to fulfill something with the DSS.