No Happy Ending? Predestination In Rebuild.

[KingXanaduu]

^

Yeah, I'm familiar with what it means.

And, I know it's a very Eastern way to think to sacrifice everything you are for the world, and it is noble, I will give it that.

The problem with that is with that kind of thinking, everybody wins....except for you. Shinji has had VERY little sense of happiness or love in his life, so expecting him to sacrifice everything that he is for everything? Yes, that's noble....but, hollow at the same time.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it just doesn't sit well with me.

[ChaddyManPrime]

^
Maybe knowing that he died saving the people he loves will bring him happiness, just a thought.

[KingXanaduu]

^
But then, he'll NEVER get to see them happy or love them ever again, or ever BE loved, ever again.

He'll never get to do anything with them ever again.

I get what you're saying, but I guess I'm playing "devil's advocate" to show it's not an easy choice. :P

[ChaddyManPrime]

^
Bro, we already know that the human soul exists in the Evaverse and there appears to be some form of afterlife through the means of Instrumentality, he'll either A) See them again someday or B) Imagine them with him.

[KingXanaduu]

^

That may be true, but if that's the case, what would be stopping from Wille from doing the same, considering the hell they're in right now?

The point of Eva is to learn to live and accept LIFE by moving forward, even by a little. So, Shinji sacrificing himself would still be against that message that Anno is trying to tell us, that you must endure and keeping trying to move forward. Shinji just offing himself is contrary to that message, despite the "heroic sacrifice". He would be regressing BACK further than ever, cause he's giving up on life.

[ChaddyManPrime]

^
He's not giving up on life, giving up implies defeat, he's giving his life for the people he loves, there is a difference.

[Stillborn]

I have a solution. Make him survive the heroic sacrifice. Incredibly crippled, scarred, and bound to bed for the rest of his life. Maybe as a vegetable. But hey he will be alive. I'm pretty sure that's optimistic

[ElMariachi]

(i know ElMariachi this won't happen - you told me that already) a la' (take here a tragedy heroic sacrifice ending that made you cry)

Killjoy!

Anyway, I believe that whatever the ending FINAL will deliver, be it happy, bittersweet or an absolute downer a la Texhnolyze, will be much more "absolute" and clear cut than in EoE.
Until further notice, Rebuild is supposed to be Anno's final shot at Evangelion, and Shinji's story, and since the last we see of something is usually was leave the biggest impression, most of the audience' lasting impression of Shinji will come from FINAL, so Anno could want to make a clear end point to Evangelion by making an ending that's unambiguous so we could say that Shinji's final fate was undoubtedly happy/meaningless/hard but he won and the future looks bright.

[SEELE]

Why should Anno care about fanfics?

More on point, this is pretty much the opposite of Eva's themes and such. The point is to get out of the basement and live. You can't really do that if you're dead and stuff.

He doesn't care about fanfic in the first place (while i think 2.0 is a fanfic at all) yeah but to say something like you did is inconsistent because you write (like i do: "Cry of Despair") "Ghost of Eva" and at the same time you saying something like that. Don't consider me or you as something like a obsessive otaku. I don't even have any merchandise at all. Just the tv-show and the movies. Im not post in this forum because im obsessed with this stuff ... but rather i have some like-minded people around me (believe it or not Germany don't have much eva-fans). Eva is like a good book you can't stop talking about ... and if you see the core-fandom you know why it is so much fun to talk with ppl about this stuff. If i wouldn't have this board i would have forgot about NGE at all. Because nobody seems to know this "masterpiece".

But then again. I consider a "im going to die to make the other ppl happy/im going to kill myself because i'm a monster"-ending still as a happy ending. And not only in Evangelion. Because life is hard and nuts ... you don't get what you want. My life showed me how much this is true. And suprise suprise im still alive (only because i'm a fatalist i dont have the will to live). Compared to 2.0 a heroic sacrifice would make sense for FINAL because Shinji would end the world for a clone of his mother. In FINAL (just imagine) he would give everything to show the WILLE crew how much he cared about the world at all. He can't redo things. He can't understand them. But he can made up his mind and do something altruistic to stop the final impact or use his power in the right way.

The funny thing about this is: ppl in the evaverse don't need the Instrumentality if they would try to understand each other and so on. And that is my point in my fanfic. Shinji, Asuka, Rei and everyone else don't need this Instrumentality

I imagine something like the manga ending (it is infact everything that Anno avoided to tell by moving on but its still a happy ending). Shinji (like Kaworu, Rei II) is now a ghost and watches how Mari, Asuka, ReiQ, Misato, Kaji and everyone else live on a happy planet and he moves on into the afterlife and embrace his mother and everyone that might be dead (i would say Kaji is dead at the start of 3.0 but i dunno).

And if im wrong here ... i didn't get your post at all.

[...] The problem with that is with that kind of thinking, everybody wins....except for you. [...]

It is not bad to be altruistic. If everybody wins and you would treated like a monster. May i ask you what purpose do you have other than to make up and prove your will to improve your current situation? If it would make the world a better place i would be honored to sacrifice my life. But reality: this isn't the case. So the funny thing is Shinji will (like ElMariachi told me a few threads ago) not sacrifice himself. We might get the conclusion from EoE but then it is a cashcow. He will not be killed - because it is a Shinji-centric story. In the tv-show this is a other case but we saw that he survived 3. Impact.

[...] Shinji has had VERY little sense of happiness or love in his life, so expecting him to sacrifice everything that he is for everything? Yes, that's noble....but, hollow at the same time. [...]

Sad or zealous people consider the tiniest spark of happiness as something overwhelming. Trust me im this kind of person. Shinji is satisfyed by the little things in life - Q proved this. And then again. Its a Shinji-centric story and he won't be killed (if this then actually happen [that Shinji dies] i would be more than suprised). I read for example books and novels where protagonist dies in the end. I don't hate happily ever after or even baby ever after but if its not something sad in this story ... i feel really hallow. Don't get me wrong but i know things like that don't last forever. Melancholy is so hard to make it work properly. For me as a pretty melancholic guys is something like Crisis Core, Evangelion or other depressing stuff not that hard to endure. Okay the kinky fanfic stuff is a little bit "nah comn!" but overall for me as a pessimistic person ... i love eva for setting something like this. And that is maybe why i like bittersweet chocolate and lots of black beer.

[...] so Anno could want to make a clear end point to Evangelion by making an ending that's unambiguous so we could say that Shinji's final fate was undoubtedly happy/meaningless/hard but he won and the future looks bright.

Future looks not that bright. Not even in real life. But your exceptitions might be optimistic. Its a dystopian future ... but then again. Everywhere could be heaven ... even within death.

[ElMariachi]

Future looks not that bright. Not even in real life. But your exceptitions might be optimistic. Its a dystopian future ... but then again. Everywhere could be heaven ... even within death.

That what I talked about a clear-cut ending, which doesn't leave place for ambiguity, whether it will be an happy, bittersweet or sad ending.

[SEELE]

That what I talked about a clear-cut ending, which doesn't leave place for ambiguity, whether it will be an happy, bittersweet or sad ending.

If Anno consider his current situation with his life at all (compared to NGE & EoE) and if you are optimistic about that (which is probably even possible) then you might get a happy ending. But then again - what purpose would we have to write tons of fanfic's? Im not against something like LAS or some other conclusion. Its like Space Odyessey - at the moment Anno sets into a direction he will piss of one out of three.

[ElMariachi]

Its like Space Odyessey - at the moment Anno sets into a direction he will piss of one out of three.

I think he realized that a long time ago, and learned to not let it weight him too much, or else he would had never made the surprise timeskip and brutal change of setting.

[SEELE]

I think he realized that a long time ago, and learned to not let it weight him too much, or else he would had never made the surprise timeskip and brutal change of setting.

But that doesn't change that he pisses a good amount of fans off. Even without the timeskip he would have the same situation. Asuka would be mad at him for not saving her but Rei. And so on. Q is only praised with a time skip for the sake of arc shots, which arent necessary for something like Evangelion. They invented the AAA Wunder to fight angels and arc shots. Something like a giant ship would do the same effect. The first 30min of the movie could be withdrawn and it wouldn't change anything. That is the case. So back to the Happy Ending - either way Anno will do it - it wont satisfy anyone and if he is smart enough he cancles FINAL.

[ElMariachi]

They invented the AAA Wunder to fight angels and arc shots. Something like a giant ship would do the same effect. The first 30min of the movie could be withdrawn and it wouldn't change anything. That is the case.

Except that 3.0 is a prologue for both the new setting and for FINAL, that's why it present us all the factions even though they don't have the same relevance in the movie: sure WILLE isn't that important until the last part of the movie (although it serves as part of Shinji's motivation to try to save the world), and the strange nature of the AAA Wunder doesn't really matter in the movie, but it serves to make us familiar with these new elements for the moment they will be important for the plot, in FINAL.

[SEELE]

Except that 3.0 is a prologue for both the new setting and for FINAL, that's why it present us all the factions even though they don't have the same relevance in the movie: sure WILLE isn't that important until the last part of the movie (although it serves as part of Shinji's motivation to try to save the world), and the strange nature of the AAA Wunder doesn't really matter in the movie, but it serves to make us familiar with these new elements for the moment they will be important for the plot, in FINAL.

Nah, that it is a prologue ... right i agree. But The first quater of this movie is unnecessery. Like i said. They could have withdrawn it and it wouldn't change the plot this much. Maybe the DSS Choker but then again it would be something like E24. The motivation of Shinji setting things right, didn't came from the AAA Wunder. He said himself that they don't need or explain him anything. He firstly got the impression of redo things because of Kaworu and his revelation. Its like an irreversible crash course of actions. Shinji gets death threats from his former friends and what should he do other than to go with Ayanami. If he would be rescured by SEELE/Neo-NERV it wouldn't change anything. And per exposition you could introduce the new threat "WILLE" who wants to do bad things. The main plot resolves around that Shinji (because he is a little adorable puppy) wants to make things better and simply is on the wrong side to do so. Thats why its called "you can not redo". The only thing that was exciting was Space-Jesus-Eyepatch-Asuka. But then again ... its only for the sake of cinematic. Arc-shots and so on. Which arent (or weren't) necessary for the second half of Evangelion just like in the tv-show. Visual aspects arent everything ... really.

I vote for a downer somewhat "sacrifice yourself"-ending because its not the case i will be suprised no matter what happens. Okay unless it is a EoE copycat.

[ElMariachi]

If he would be rescured by SEELE/Neo-NERV it wouldn't change anything. And per exposition you could introduce the new threat "WILLE" who wants to do bad things.

Except that it wouldn't work half a second for the audience: most of us have seen NGE, and I suppose that everyone who saw 3.0 also saw 1.0 and 2.0, where it was crystal clear that Gendo was a bad guy.

Also, my point with 3.0 being a prologue is that its role is to present to us the main factions, so that they won't feel like coming out of nowhere at the end of the movie.

And why do you want to take away the actions scenes of the first quarter of the movie? Big actions scenes were always part of Evangelion, even in EoE, and operation US is the most kickass action scene of the whole franchise, only Asuka's fight against the MP-Evas in EoE is as badass! (or surpass it depending on who you're asking)

[Ray]

@Chaddy

The whole reason I made this thread was because I DON'T want to see Shinji die. . .or get an unhappy ending. But theres evidence, in Quantum!Rei appearing that appears to indicate that his ending will be anything but happy. Shinji witnessed something from the future, that could have only existed if he failed. Meaning, no matter what he does, his failure (instrumentality) is/was pre-destined to happen.

How can you challenge something as BIG as quantum mechanics and predestination?

[ElMariachi]

^
We don't know yet what the apparitions of "ghost Rei" means yet: that could be her that will become Quantum in the future, or maybe she already became Quantum at the end of 2.0 when EVA-01 awoke and Instrumentality won't happens, and her apparition in front of Rei Q is an hint that she have an agenda and is trying to influence events as much as she can.

Besides even if Instrumentality is launched, why would that automatically mean that the good guys lost? In EoE Instrumentality happened, yet in the end Shinji destroyed it, completely thwarting Gendo and SEELE's plans.

[ChaddyManPrime]

@ Brohammy Ray

He doesn't technically die since there is an after life of sorts, sooo... he lives.

[Bagheera]

@Chaddy

The whole reason I made this thread was because I DON'T want to see Shinji die. . .or get an unhappy ending. But theres evidence, in Quantum!Rei appearing that appears to indicate that his ending will be anything but happy. Shinji witnessed something from the future, that could have only existed if he failed. Meaning, no matter what he does, his failure (instrumentality) is/was pre-destined to happen.

How can you challenge something as BIG as quantum mechanics and predestination?

Ray, nothing you've said here has any basis. First, we don't know the image he saw of Rei was from the future (we don't know that in the original show, for that matter, let alone here). If it is from the future it doesn't mean Shinji failed at anything. It doesn't even hint at such -- whatever caused her to "go quantum" could be completely unconnected to anything Shinji does in Final (heck, it might have been due to 3I, meaning it's completely unconnected to anything in Final!). And even if it is the result of Instrumentality or whatever that doesn't mean it's bad, or that it can't result in a good ending. We might see the Adams used to alter reality completely, for instance, something like what we saw in RahXephon, which would result in a good end for everyone. We simply don't know, and virtually anything is possible at this point.

Just relax, and STOP ASSUMING.