ElMariachi wrote:Aren't there actually five crosses at 2I ground zero, with the fifth one (presumably representing the "Prime Adam")not visible from space because its toppled? Yet EVA-13 exists, so a cross doesn't necessarily means a pulverized Adam. (then there's the matter of the Key of Nebuchadnezzar, but we don't know if it's an Adam or not)

Yes, the rationale of my argument being that the tilted cross represents a "not quite dead Adams", i.e. the surviving Eva-13.

To clarify, I think there were one "central" and four "lesser" Adams at Antarctica (just as depicted in the Dead See Scrolls you posted). The Katsuragi expedition did something involving 4 of the 6 spears and the 4 lesser Adams, resulting in the loss of the items involved (arguably, the remains of the bodies of the four lesser Adams were later repurposed into the NHG/Wunder ships). One of the remaining spears was blown all the way to the Moon (unclear how it ended up in the Cassius state if Lilith wasn't involved in 2I); the central Adams was spared, and the 6th spear is the one stabbed onto Lilith (whether before or after 2I, we don't know).

But it's all very unclear anyway, we don't know what the crosses are made of, what's the mechanism by which they originated in the first place (i.e., whether it is srtrictly tied to the Adams dying, or just awakening?), whether they're related to the solid red ones seen in the distance in 3.0... So everything is up for debate really.

ElMariachi wrote:Also, the way things are shown in 1.0 and 2.0 (the dig site around Mark.06) suggest that they found it and the spear here instead of creating it then taking all the pain to move it to the moon.

I also thought Mark.06 had been "dug up" on the Moon previously, but if you look closely it's just a fence built around the Mark.06, which is lying at ground level. The lighting, the incline of the slope where Kaworu stands, and the hills in the background are visually deceiving I think.

Incidentally, that white fence looks exactly like the ones they erect around construction sites everywhere in Japan

ElMariachi wrote:Finally, wouldn't it be dangerous to have an Angel (Kaworu) pilot something created from Lilith?

Good question. We really don't know what the mechanics of that would be. I don't think a Lilith clone could "stand-in" for Lilith to trigger the third impact Misato mentions...
Side note: The Mark.06 that descends from the Moon has a halo resembling those of the angels (sharp edges and rainbow color), not those of the Adams and other Evas (white and fuzzy edges)... Also, when did the 12th angel get in? Was it put ther eon purpose by Seele, or did it infiltrate the unit e.g. as a means to get to Lilith?

So many unknowns...

ElMariachi wrote:It might be a question of target solidity (Lilith is "squishy" so the fork form is enough, Mark.06 and EVA-13 were armored, so the javelin mode was needed)

The same Lilith does get "javelined" at 3I, but "forked" prior to that...

ElMariachi wrote:, or maybe the function is different: the fork is the "preservation" setting where it maintains the target as it is (that would explain why Lilith is half-rotten in 3.0, since it wasn't preserved by the "fork" anymore), while the javelin mode is either to kill something or to use their function when an Impact is underway.

That makes more sense. But then again, the javelin is preserving Lilith from image collapse in 3.0. This topic deserves some research I think...

Random though relevant question: how was Kaworu "cast down" to 13th...that part always left me wondering.

I like the theory that Gendo cast Kaworu down to 13th using powers he gained from the Key. It fits the probable timeline pretty well.

nerv bae wrote:I like the theory that Gendo cast Kaworu down to 13th using powers he gained from the Key. It fits the probable timeline pretty well.

There's a lot of speculation around that. I can't remember the details very well, but there was this Japanese video that explained it like this:

Eva 13 is an Adams, and as such has this special power "kotodama" (言霊) to change things into other things (Misato mentions the word when they discuss creating a new spear, just like the two Nerv ships -also Adams- created the spears from the Black Moon earlier).

So the awakened Eva-13 reverts the 12th angel to embryo (fetus?) state, surrounding Eva-13, and this somehow also reverts Kaworu (but his external appearance does not change because he is "immutable" short of vacuum decay), so Kaworu is reborn as an "additional" angel.

Quite a bit wishy-washy if you ask me; I also suspect the Key has something to do with it. But we know so little about Kaworu, what it means for him to be the "First angel", and what the key really is, that it is hard to tell.

DantesInferno wrote:
Eva 13 is an Adams, and as such has this special power "kotodama" (言霊) to change things into other things (Misato mentions the word when they discuss creating a new spear, just like the two Nerv ships -also Adams- created the spears from the Black Moon earlier).

So the awakened Eva-13 reverts the 12th angel to embryo (fetus?) state, surrounding Eva-13, and this somehow also reverts Kaworu

This makes sense as to how they were able to turn the 12th angel into a core so that Evangelion 13 could eat it.

But as to the casting down I still don't get how it played a major role into initiating the fourth impact. Does any angel demotion trigger an impact?

Kaworu even tells Shinji it's not his fault but his by being cast down from the 1st to the 13th angel. How does that work?

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:This makes sense as to how they were able to turn the 12th angel into a core so that Evangelion 13 could eat it.

But as to the casting down I still don't get how it played a major role into initiating the fourth impact. Does any angel demotion trigger an impact?

Kaworu even tells Shinji it's not his fault but his by being cast down from the 1st to the 13th angel. How does that work?

I think somehow Kaworu being a brand new angel inside the awakened Eva-13 contributes to the impact.

Kaworu says "downcast" because either he A) remembers being the 1st at some earlier point, but is no longer an "active" angel (hance nothing happening initially when he gets in the Eva), or B) Kaworu was already the full-fledged, active 1st angel, but only angels other than Kaworu/Lilith (which are "special" in many ways, e.g. are excluded from the "kill list") can be triggers.

It's all a bit foggy and blends with that theory of Shinji being the 11th angel (which has a few unresolved issues, come to think of it), but remember what Kaworu said earlier to Shinji:

Kaworu wrote:Ikari-kun... Once awaken and having openend the gates of Guf, Eva-01 became the trigger

It is notable how the wording "becoming the trigger" is mentioned on both occasions. Weirdly enough, for 3I it is Eva-01 itself, whereas for pre-4I, it is Kaworu instead (the pilot).

The theory of Shinji as the 11th (i.e., anyone who can trigger an impact is considered an "angel") has some advantages, namely:
- It explains the "missing" 11th angel that must necessarily occur after the 10th (check) and before the 12th, which is trapped during A3I soon? after (check)
- It is consistent with the "deification shutdown system" name of the choker, shown when Ritsuko explains its purpose of preventing another N3I.
- It is consistent with Kaworu becoming the 13th and thus trigger too (counterpoint: as mentioned earlier, it is the Eva that is the trigger in one instance and the pilot in another, but perhaps minor distinction given that the pilot provides the "soul(s)" for the Eva?)

It does have serious disadvantages too:
- How come Nerv/Seele are OK without exterminating him?
- If all angels 3rd-onward (i.e., the ones that come after mankind and have to be exterminated) are depicted in the Dead Sea Scrolls, how could they know about Shinji, who is just the biological child of Gendo and Yui? (this assumes the other angels existed since ancient times at least, based on Gendo's "prophecy", and were not spawned in modern times like in the NGE/EoE continuity).
- Where did Shinji get his Fruit of Life from?

etc. etc.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:But as to the casting down I still don't get how it played a major role into initiating the fourth impact. Does any angel demotion trigger an impact?

In Rebuild, we have seen that the trigger for an Impact could be different things. For example: The trigger for the Third Impact in 2.0 was the Awakening of Eva-01 (the contact with the soul of Rei likely affected too).

Although we don't know the nature of the First Angel, he was likely a pretty different being from the other Angels, so his demotion to 13th Angel was a pretty unique situation, which triggered the Fourth Impact.

Other Angels wouldn't be demoted, since they have similar nature.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:Kaworu even tells Shinji it's not his fault but his by being cast down from the 1st to the 13th angel. How does that work?

Kaworu's point was that Shinji taking the Spears wasn't the trigger for the Fourth Impact. If Kaworu wasn't cast down to Thirteen Angel, the Fourth Impact wouldn't start even if Shinji takes the Spears.

I suspect the function of the spears of Longinus in the Fourth Impact in 3.0 would be to be absorbed by the Gates of Guff and start the purification of souls (which happened with the Black Moon Spear in 3.0+1.0). Fortunately, the Fourth Impact in 3.0 was stopped.

DantesInferno wrote:It is notable how the wording "becoming the trigger" is mentioned on both occasions. Weirdly enough, for 3I it is Eva-01 itself, whereas for pre-4I, it is Kaworu instead (the pilot).

Near-Third Impact appears to trigger the moment Shinji starts absorbing Rei out of the 10th Angel's ("Zeruel") core, and into Unit-01. Sure, there are the red eyes and unexplained power source when Unit-01 awakens, but the "expanding halo turns the sky red / stuff starts floating / Tsubasa wo kudasai" phase does not happen until Shinji actually starts pulling at Rei (as well as all of the 10th Angel!)

As for (Actual) Third Impact, we do not know what actually triggered it, but Unit-01 was certainly at the center of it. And we know that Rei has been dormant inside its core between Near-Third Impact and Another Impact, i.e. throughout all of the third and fourth movies.

My theory is that Impacts in Rebuild of Evangelion can be triggered by a certain interaction between the cores of two Angels. And an awakened Evangelion in combination with either Rei or Kaworu could substitute one or both Angels.

--- Aside:
This is not too different from NGE, really. For clarity, NGE logic appears to have Impacts trigger when 3 things come together:
1. The Fruit of Life (i.e. an Angel's N2 engine/organ)
2. The Fruit of Knowledge (i.e. something possessed by both Lilith and all Evangelions)
3. An act of will by to actually pull the trigger by the entity possessing both Fruits.
(Human Instrumentality hinged on a human willingly making Third Impact happen after all Angels that could have overridden the process had been eliminated. SEELE wanted a pet Evangelion pilot to do this. In EOE, Gendo tried to hijack the process by implanting both Adam and Rei III (Lilith) into his own body, but he did not expect Rei III to have a will of her own to override his.)

Jornophelanthas wrote:Near-Third Impact appears to trigger the moment Shinji starts absorbing Rei out of the 10th Angel's ("Zeruel") core, and into Unit-01. Sure, there are the red eyes and unexplained power source when Unit-01 awakens, but the "expanding halo turns the sky red / stuff starts floating / Tsubasa wo kudasai" phase does not happen until Shinji actually starts pulling at Rei (as well as all of the 10th Angel!)

The Awakening of Eva-01 seems to be the Trigger for the Third Impact. That's why the pilots use the DSS Choker to prevent the Awakening of an Eva.

The contact with Rei was likely an important factor, but WILLE seems to be terrified at the possibility of an Eva Awakening.

Konja7 wrote:

The Awakening of Eva-01 seems to be the Trigger for the Third Impact.

Yes, and Shinji was the trigger for Eva 01's awakening. His wish of retrieving Rei II somehow seems to have detonated something that made the Eva semi-awaken.

But it is not until Unit-01 absorbed the angel's blood in the form of a giant Rei (which has Eva 00's core inside) when Unit-01 truly awakens.

Konja7 wrote:

The contact with Rei was likely an important factor

I still have my doubts about Ayanami's role in all of this. We still didn't get to know if Rei II had Lilith's soul this time around.

We got some scenes from 3.333 where Lilith's face turned into Ayanami's face, hinting at a posible link between them. Meanwhile, the Failures of Infinity turned into headless Unit-01.

That got me thinking if Anno's original plan was to tie Ayanami to Lilith again; but then, over the next 8 years that surrounded the production of TUAT he seemed to have changed his mind.

In 3.0, we see various remnants of Third Impact happening in between movies. One of these is Gendo standing in the ravaged NERV control room looking at a (very dead) Giant Naked Rei head with empty eye sockets. It is not a stretch to imagine that this would match the headless corpse of Lilith that Unit-13 is dealing with at the time.

Additionally, Eva Imaginary turned into a Giant Naked Rei when she emerged from the Gates of Guf during Another Impact.

Rei and Lilith are still closely connected throughout all Rebuild movies.

Jornophelanthas wrote:As for (Actual) Third Impact, we do not know what actually triggered it, but Unit-01 was certainly at the center of it.

It doesn't seem to matter; Kaworu's explanation in 3.0 suggests that everything that came after (including Actual 3I) was due to Shinji's action, and Eva-01 was the ultimate trigger of it all.

Do you remember that in the Paris attack in TUAT there are several evas with Longinus spears attached to them?

Do you guys think those spears would have been effective in Gendoh's plans or we should count them as non-usable fake spears?

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:Do you remember that in the Paris attack in TUAT there are several evas with Longinus spears attached to them?

Do you guys think those spears would have been effective in Gendoh's plans or we should count them as non-usable fake spears?

They’re included on my list of fake spears:

nerv bae wrote:Things that look like spears but aren't:

10) Purple Tree of Life spear
11) 8th Angel arm spears
12) Mark44A spears

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:Do you remember that in the Paris attack in TUAT there are several evas with Longinus spears attached to them?

Do you guys think those spears would have been effective in Gendoh's plans or we should count them as non-usable fake spears?

Highly doubt it, Gendo wouldn't had gotten through the pain to keep the last two spears if he could mass produce them. Those are probably facsimile, like the ones used by the MP-Evas in EoE.
Hell, maybe those aren't even pseudo-spears, but just the cable holding the two halves together having been "braided" together!