Archer wrote:My memory is blurry on this, but IIRC Kaworu only appears in flashbacks and within Instrumentality, right? (Not counting the ending, which is likely completely metaphorical). I think, narratively, there’s a difference between a character speaking with the spirit of a dead character who nonetheless stays dead, but can communicate in some limited capacity; versus a dead character who has a part of them live on semi-permanently in the material world. Like, I wouldn’t have minded (would’ve preferred, in fact) if Rei Q had also shown up in that last goodbye scene alongside Rei II.

We also see Kaworu's soul between Original Shikinami legs (trapped in a green light). His soul is inside Eva-13.

Kaworu's situation is pretty similar to Rei II (both have lost their bodies and their souls are trapped inside an Eva). Also, the fate of Kaworu and Rei II is unclear at the end of 3.0+1.0. We don't know if they return to Earth (we only see a metal door closing behind them).

The only main character we could confirm return to Earth is Asuka.


PS: In general, my interpretation is that Rei Q's personality dissapeared with her death. I feel like Rei II having Rei Q memories is a way to show that Rei Q's existence left a mark.

nerv bae wrote:I guess I have the same question for you as I do for @Archer above. Why is it bad that Rei Q, a sub-Rei, completes a quest for identify and self-realization before rejoining the Rei continuum of character? Why isn't that beautiful? I think it could be framed as such.

Precisely because she didn't completed her quest for identity, as said identity was refused to her at the last second.
It's not the fact that she died that irks me, it's a combination of factors that depicts the end of her arc and it's aftermath that IMHO does a disservice to her character:

• the fact that she was ultimately denied a name despite all of her arc through 3.0 and Thrice building up to it as the logical end point of her quest for identity: she's "just Ayanami"(-type), that's it, nothing more. We have a good illustration in this very forum with how we refer to her as either "Rei Q" (because writing "Tentative Name" is a hassle) or "Lookalike" (the temporary name the people of the village gave her until she finds a name for herself), even in the end during Instrumentality, Shinji can only refer to her as "the other you" to Rei II.
• the fact that no besides Shinji seems seems to react or even acknoledge her existence after she died: we don't get a shot of the reaction of the Suzuharas or the old ladies that took her under their wings, Asuka doesn't even mention her before and after Shinji boards the Wunder, even the Wunder crew seems completely uninterested in that Ayanami-series that could had been a big source of intel about neo-NERV's installations and capabilities. The only reactions and reference to her existence are from Fuyutsuki of all people, and only to reveal that she was the sixth of Rei II's batch and that Gendo could had saved her but didn't because he's an asshole, and again Shinji during Instrumentality where he refers to her as "the other you" to Rei II
• with those two previous points in mind, the fact that Rei II appears with the Tsubame doll without any foreshadowing or implication that Rei Q willingly gave them to her, which gives the implication that this was the actual goal of Rei Q's arc: to serve as a disposable repository of experiences so Rei II could continue their own life

Let's say for exemple, that instead she did get a name, and that after her death we has a little scene of a funeral with all the people who knew her gathered to pay their respects and acknowledge her existence, and that Rei Q's spirit/collective of information that survived in Minus Space thanks to Instrumentality/Rei-Lilith shenanigans decides to give her memories to Rei II as a gift so she could move on with her life, then I wouldn't had any problems with her death, because she would had reached the logical conclusion of her arc started in 3.0 and left a visible (as in, shown to the viewers via the reactions and acknowledgement of her existence by the people she knew) mark in the world surrounding her.

Instead of that, seeing how in the early version of 3.0 she was implied to survivem I have the feeling that Anno didn't know what to do with her and the fact that there might be two Reis around, so offed her to give Shinji some extra man-pain to then amalgamate her with Rei II so people wouldn't think of the implication that Gendo deliberately murdered someone by inaction just to be a dick to his son, which wouldn't look well with his "redemption".

Axx°N N. wrote:Sorry for not being totally clear; the latter. I'm not totally convinced of the exact way they might be fused, but for the sake of argument I was assuming it's an absorption of memory and identity. But again, what is the difference between memory and identity? Can't you make a good argument there isn't actually much of, or any, difference? It's a loose question outside of the Eva-specific scenario. The solution is to canonize the existence of souls, but I'm not sure NTE offers consistent guidance on that matter; Rei Q is said to be bereft of a soul, but then she seems to develop a personality anyway. Does that mean she grows a soul?

OK I see, then honestly it's difficult to say: roughly half of Asuka's Instrumentality is about he resentment to be alone without parents (illustrated when she sees a young Shinji with Gendo and Yui), but logically those could only be memories from a previous Asuka, since we also see the "activation" of the Shikinami clone that is the one we follow through NTE.
So we can't if all of the Shikinami types had the memories of that little Asuka, or if those came from her fusion with the original in Thrice, which would make her a "Prime Asuka". (which would be also weird, since it would give half of Instrumentality and Asuka's grievances to a character that literally came out of nowhere for 30 seconds at the last minute)

the fact that she was ultimately denied a name despite all of her arc through 3.0 and Thrice building up to it as the logical end point of her quest for identity:

I was confused about this at first because it isn’t directly addressed, but looking back in it later I’m pretty sure the implication of the Kaji Jr stuff was supposed to indicate that the name Shinji ultimately gave her was just “Rei Ayanami”.

Archer wrote:I was confused about this at first because it isn’t directly addressed, but looking back in it later I’m pretty sure the implication of the Kaji Jr stuff was supposed to indicate that the name Shinji ultimately gave her was just “Rei Ayanami”.

Wouldn't that also be demeaning to her identity? That would mean that would mean that all she gained was the right to be analogue to Rei Ayanami, and thus ultimately absorbed by Rei II.

Although that makes me think: what does Shinji says in the english dub: "just Ayanami" or "just Rei"?

On the Prime English sub, I see "You're still Ayanami" and on the Prime English dub I hear "There's only one Ayanami." On the Prime Japanese soundtrack I hear the word "Ayanami" twice, and so Reichu translates this line as "Ayanami is Ayanami."

Archer wrote:

the fact that she was ultimately denied a name despite all of her arc through 3.0 and Thrice building up to it as the logical end point of her quest for identity:

I was confused about this at first because it isn’t directly addressed, but looking back in it later I’m pretty sure the implication of the Kaji Jr stuff was supposed to indicate that the name Shinji ultimately gave her was just “Rei Ayanami”.

Now I'm confused! What's the Kaji Jr stuff? I don't remember how Kaji Jr relates to Rei Q's naming.

nerv bae wrote:On the Prime English sub, I see "You're still Ayanami" and on the Prime English dub I hear "There's only one Ayanami." On the Prime Japanese soundtrack I hear the word "Ayanami" twice, and so Reichu translates this line as "Ayanami is Ayanami."

The implications are different for each version: in the English subs he says that she's an Ayanami (the closest to his words in Japanese), but in the English dub he seems to refuse to even consider her as an Ayanami, and that for him Ayanami = Rei II and that's it.

ElMariachi wrote:The implications are different for each version: in the English subs he says that she's an Ayanami (the closest to his words in Japanese), but in the English subs he seems to refuse to even consider her as an Ayanami, and that for him Ayanami = Rei II and that's it.

Can you edit your post? Right now it uses "subs" twice so I'm not sure which translations you're commenting on. (I did this when I was drafting too! )

nerv bae wrote:Now I'm confused! What's the Kaji Jr stuff? I don't remember how Kaji Jr relates to Rei Q's naming.

I believe the point being made is that Kaji and Misato's son is not only his father's spitting image, but has also been named "Ryouji Kaji" - identifical to his father. Yet he is also his own distinct personality entirely separate from his father. Because we know he is not a clone, and he never met either of his parents - or even knew their identities - and has not been exposed to their personalities.

So there is precedent for people carrying the same name as another person (and even looking like them), yet still having their own identity. And since we know Shinji meets Ryouji Kaji junior and clearly treats him differently from Kaji senior, it is not a giant leap to assume that Shinji applies the same logic to Rei Q.

--- Aside:
In my opinion, the entire point of Ryouji Kaji junior is that he is a child without any of the Freudian oedipal baggage that is so pervasive in Shinji. He is the anti-Shinji, and represents both what Wille is fighting for, and the EVA-less humanity that Shinji creates a world for in the end. He is the post-Evangelion human.
--- End aside

Regarding Rei holding the Tsubame doll, there is a possible explanation that deserves mention. Here goes:

Gendo explains that the Anti-Universe shapes itself to the human senses using a person's own memories and frame of reference. Which would apply to Rei's attire - especially because she has no actual physical body and is only a soul.

The assumptions everyone so far has made is that Rei's appearance is the way she imagines herself. But what if it is not? What if we perceive her through Shinji's frame of reference? Then the Tsubame doll would be a result of Shinji's memories of how Rei Q found her place in Village 3, projected onto Rei II's soul.

To address a few potential objections:
Shinji does not know that Rei Q got so close to Tsubame
Shinji started contributing to the village life after Kensuke gave him the fishing rod. Just the fact that he was aware that Rei Q had built a life in Village 3 suggests that he knew specifics of that life. And Rei Q living with Toji, Hikari and Tsubame (and doting on the baby) would be some of the most obvious facts worth knowing about Rei Q's village life.

Why would Shinji project an attribute to Rei II that he knew belonged to "the other Rei"?
There could be several reasons:

• Shinji has built relationships with both Reis, and seeing one reminds him of the other. His act of naming Rei Q after Rei II would reinforce this.
• It could serve as a visual clue of the advice that Shinji was about to offer Rei that "the other you" found a life outside of NERV.
• Not sure if this line was in 2.0 (or just in NGE), but Shinji once said he believed Rei would be a good mother. So depicting her holding an effigy of the only real-life infant he has ever seen would fit her personality.

nerv bae wrote:

ElMariachi#936362 wrote:The implications are different for each version: in the English subs he says that she's an Ayanami (the closest to his words in Japanese), but in the English subs he seems to refuse to even consider her as an Ayanami, and that for him Ayanami = Rei II and that's it.

Can you edit your post? Right now it uses "subs" twice so I'm not sure which translations you're commenting on. (I did this when I was drafting too! )

Done.

Thanks, okay:

ElMariachi wrote:

nerv bae wrote:On the Prime English sub, I see "You're still Ayanami" and on the Prime English dub I hear "There's only one Ayanami." On the Prime Japanese soundtrack I hear the word "Ayanami" twice, and so Reichu translates this line as "Ayanami is Ayanami."

The implications are different for each version: in the English subs he says that she's an Ayanami (the closest to his words in Japanese), but in the English dub he seems to refuse to even consider her as an Ayanami, and that for him Ayanami = Rei II and that's it.

I agree that the implications are different for each version, but I don't agree with your drawn implications and I think it's an error to rely on either English translation in this instance anyways.

You've drawn the implication from the English dub that Shinji refuses to consider Rei Q as an Ayanami. Under this implication, Rei Q remains un-named by Shinji. However, I don't think this is a valid implication because Shinji goes on to call her "Ayanami" three times in the next few seconds as she steps backwards and is tanged. So he definitely does consider her as an Ayanami!

Maybe more importantly: The crux of this conversation is why and how Shinji names Rei Q, and these two English translations both apparently fail to faithfully translate the Japanese audio track's repetition of "Ayanami". That's the magic word, Ayanami, and if it appears twice in the source but only once in either translation, I think both translations are a bit broken and it's an error to rely on them. Reichu's third translation seems a bit better to me in this regard. So what implications can we draw from "Ayanami is Ayanami"? Is this just Shinji's way of saying that the identity of any instance of the Rei continuum of characters is hopelessly bound up with the label Ayanami in his own mind? In an earlier post you characterize this as a last-minute refusal that spoils Rei Q's quest for identity, but this reading of the scene just seems too bleak to me.

(I can't translate from Japanese at all! It would be helpful if someone who can takes another look at this dialogue.)

Jornophelanthas wrote:So there is precedent for people carrying the same name as another person (and even looking like them), yet still having their own identity. And since we know Shinji meets Ryouji Kaji junior and clearly treats him differently from Kaji senior, it is not a giant leap to assume that Shinji applies the same logic to Rei Q.

That's an interesting take: Kaji Jr's naming anticipates the lesson in Ayanami's naming, that names are just labels that don't define individuals.

Jornophelanthas wrote:The assumptions everyone so far has made is that Rei's appearance is the way she imagines herself. But what if it is not? What if we perceive her through Shinji's frame of reference? Then the Tsubame doll would be a result of Shinji's memories of how Rei Q found her place in Village 3, projected onto Rei II's soul.

Another interesting take. Okay, under this interpretation why is the doll made of scraps? I can counter-argue that Shinji would project a real human baby into Rei II's arms, but that Rei II (bearing Rei Q's memories) would project a doll made of scraps into her own arms because ... uh ... she only has scraps laying around the entry plug to make stuff out of during her 14 year immersion? This one's tough.

I believe the point being made is that Kaji and Misato's son is not only his father's spitting image, but has also been named "Ryouji Kaji" - identifical to his father. Yet he is also his own distinct personality entirely separate from his father. Because we know he is not a clone, and he never met either of his parents - or even knew their identities - and has not been exposed to their personalities.

That's an interesting take: Kaji Jr's naming anticipates the lesson in Ayanami's naming, that names are just labels that don't define individuals.

Was waiting for someone else to chime in here because my memory of the movie is admittedly poor and I’m too lazy to dig back through it. But yeah, that’s the interpretation I got out of that scene after thinking about it for a bit.

As a side note, surely it’s kinda silly that he doesn’t know his parentage when he’s literally named after basically a renowned war hero and looks suspiciously similar to him?

nerv bae wrote:So what implications can we draw from "Ayanami is Ayanami"? Is this just Shinji's way of saying that the identity of any instance of the Rei continuum of characters is hopelessly bound up with the label Ayanami in his own mind? In an earlier post you characterize this as a last-minute refusal that spoils Rei Q's quest for identity, but this reading of the scene just seems too bleak to me.

I am no expert on Japanese*), but I do believe that it is common to use a person's name rather than pronoun "you", especially when speaking to young people. (In fact, children and teenagers appear to often refer to themselves by using their names, rather than the pronoun "I".)

This "cutesy" speech pattern also has a place in English language, but is really only used in conversations with small children who have learned their own names, but not yet how pronouns work. Japanese seems to apply this convention in a somewhat wider range of use cases, with a connotation of being gentle and doting.

The repetition of the name in the single sentence also adds a performative element to the statement: Shinji is naming Rei Q and using that name to refer to them at the same time, twice. Which is a way to emphasize his sincerity in the name's applicability, and probably part of why Rei Q is so appreciative of it.

And then there is still the (probably deliberate) ambiguity of "Ayanami is Ayanami" also potentially meaning "You are you", which would emphasizes Shinji's belief in Rei Q's individuality.

So in my opinion, when Shinji is literally saying "Ayanami is Ayanami", more apt translations could be "Ayanami, you are Ayanami", or (less poetic) "You are who you are, and I will refer to you as Ayanami".

---

Regardless of the exact meaning in the statement, it leads to Rei Q accepting the name "Ayanami" as her own, rather than as a meaningless label she wished to discard.

Remember how she insisted to everyone in Village 3 that she was not this Rei Ayanami person that everyone thought she was? Her reason for this dates back to 3.0, where she realizes that there was a different "her" named "Rei Ayanami" before she existed. (She learns this through Shinji and Mari directly mentioning this to her.)This led her to question her own identity, as she starts wondering if what she does is what the other Ayanami would have done - and concludes that she is therefore NOT this other Ayanami. So she started defining herself as "Not that Ayanami".

Shinji's "Ayanami is Ayanami" statement marks the end of Rei Q's identity journey, that was started by Shinji's desperate "You are Ayanami, right?" back in 3.0. Rei Q rejected the name "Ayanami" because it was not her own, and ended up accepting a new name of her own. She said herself that any name would serve, so when Shinji chose "Ayanami", she was perfectly fine with that, because it no longer carried the same meaning to her as the name she rejected. It now meant her, and not this missing-and-presumably-dead person from 14 years ago.

---
*)Disclaimer: All this is based on watching subtitled anime, and not through any direct exposure to Japanese speakers.

Archer wrote:As a side note, surely it’s kinda silly that he doesn’t know his parentage when he’s literally named after basically a renowned war hero and looks suspiciously similar to him?

I have a hard time imagining Kaji Jr. existing outside of the one scene he appears in, just like I have a hard time imagining the Wille crew and how they might have interacted through the years. Things they say once a camera is put on them surely must have been hashed out in some form prior, but it's like everyone was in cryo-statis before we got to them--e.g., the way Ritsuko and Misato hash out all the stuff about the ark and Kaji is so directly aimed at the audience, and makes such little sense that they'd talk about it in this way, that there really should have been some kind of audience proxy in the scene; the way they phrase things, there's basically a third person there in spirit, and it's entirely odd. Similarly, Kaji Jr. shows up to prompt the dialogue that follows between Kensuke and Shinji, and to flesh out Misato's emotional state of mind and factor into her redemption later, another figure in the motif of failed parenting and new motif of redemption. It's all expedient in a plot sense, everything functions as a tool, but as a realized person in a realized environment where time feels like it actually exists? Not so much. One gets the sense that Kaji Jr. and the others are like NPCs in a video game and are stuck in workplace animations until Shinji arrives and prompts a cutscene.

nerv bae wrote:Okay, under this interpretation why is the doll made of scraps? I can counter-argue that Shinji would project a real human baby into Rei II's arms, but that Rei II (bearing Rei Q's memories) would project a doll made of scraps into her own arms because ... uh ... she only has scraps laying around the entry plug to make stuff out of during her 14 year immersion? This one's tough.

This is why I disagree it's from Shinji's POV. I always took the odd doll to be a symbolic representation (although in this case it's literal, too, fiction and reality merged as they are) of the rudimentary nature of Rei Q's mind. There's something very childhood drawing about it.