Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

Fanfiction, fan art, AMVs, and any other fan creations or Eva-related projects: share your work and discuss others' here.

Moderator: Board Staff

sephirotic
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 282
Joined: Jun 29, 2009
Location: SP
Gender: Male

Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby sephirotic » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:14 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I was under the impression that the "OA" episodes in Renewal were back-edited from the remastered DC ones - so they have no standing in any discussion of how the OA episodes actually were.


From what I could check, that only applies to episode 22. Episode 23 OA has a different film stock than Episode 23 DC. Same goes for 24. I actually suspect a OA version with the old ugly non-reanimated cells for Episode 22 exists and that they actually didn't capture it for the Blu ray. I remember back when I was analysing Death footage, that I could find particular dust specks on Episode 23 OA film stock present on the Death movie, but those spek were not present on the DC version of Episode 23 (for non altered scenes). I'm now curious to see if Episode 21 has two different film stock masters too since there is no animation differences, only added scenes, I'd go speck hunting on the two versions of episode 21 (also 22) when I have more free time.
-----------------------------------------------------
Re-watching Eva since 1999
-----------------------------------------------------

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 22553
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 高地園、新槍ノ島
Gender: Female

Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:01 pm

Episode 21 OA has been updated with the DC animation, as well. (This page notes the few exceptions.)
Avatar: Guu is uncertain...
Crying Man
(Or, How Dr. Katsuragi Found God): Read at AO3 & Discuss Here.
Status: First Draft. Chapter 10: Idle Hands released 5/24/2017.

"Fighting idiocy is like fighting a hydra. Cut off one head, two more grow back and need to tell you their uninformed opinion." - PeeJee, Something*Positive

Mjolnir Mark IV
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 19, 2012

Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:29 pm

sephirotic wrote:So yes, you are right for episode 22.

No, I'm not just right about Episode 22, I'm right about ALL of the changes I pointed out! They all exist. Let's not understate this. You made a huge deal of denying the fact that they all exist, which did a good job at making me look like I was full of shit...but even worse, it has the potential to actually misinform people reading this by leading them to believe that not all of these changes exist, because so much of this thread is cluttered by definitive statements you made that make it look as though you were stating the facts, and as if I were spreading false information. And you did this not just once, but over and over. So people who skim through this thread might actually believe that the differences that I pointed out don't actually exist...when the truth is that they do. I'm fine if people don't think the changes make as much of a difference as I do—that's a matter of opinion. But I want them to at least see the changes for themselves before deciding—and hopefully really think about them first.

sephirotic wrote:Anyway, I'll give you that Episode 22 is altered even in the OA version of the Renewal. But episode 23, 21 and 24 are not.

Don't forget about the sound effect change in Episode 24. And why on Earth would you bring up episodes that I never even mentioned, like episodes 21 and 23? You're shifting focus away to changes that weren't made. We could go on forever about what wasn't changed. Why even start?

Edit: I shouldn't have taken your word for it when you said Episode 21 doesn't have any changes. I just checked, and you're wrong about that, too! The non-DC Renewal version of Episode 21 has pretty much all of the same changes that are in the old scenes from the DC version (old as opposed to the completely new scenes that were added in).

sephirotic wrote:Even the coloring mistake of Unit 02 stripe is preserved. Episode 23's redrawn cells are also not changed, (Rei looking surprised vs stoic when she turns to look at Shinji in the hospital, or the Eva's cemetery being lying down torsos of skeletons vs pits of bones in the shape of the Sephiroticum system.).

Again, you're drawing attention away from my point, which is the changes worth mentioning (outside of the Director's Cut). I honestly can't tell whether your enthusiasm is causing you to change the topic (which is fine), or if you're trying to defend your credibility by understating your mistake and piling trivia on top of it.

sephirotic wrote:Hah, if only QTGMC was all what is needed to remove the ghosting artifacts...

The ghosting you're referring to is actually something called blended frames. I fixed that too. The AVS scripts included in the download for these subtitles will automatically restore the video to its original/base framerate by using Srestore to unblend it to 23.976 fps. That, combined with QTGMC (also in my scripts), does a terrific job at fixing the inadequacies you mentioned. The only small downside is that the intro sequence, which is the only part of each episode that actually was 29.97 fps, loses some of its frames due to the AVI limitation of requiring a constant framerate. But test it out, and you'll find it's a small price to pay.

The end result is that my scripts greatly improve the video of the Perfect Collection, and elevate it up in quality to something considerably higher than what people are used to expecting from it.

sephirotic wrote:Of course I'm not 100% sure that is what the scan looked like "raw", but I'm pretty damn confident it is because the colors look better than the yellow tint version.

The Perfect Collection colors look better:
http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0B4fNpxiuCvtESW93enFoaldaR00

You know why? Because light that casts a warm tint over everything like the Perfect Collection is common in real life: a late afternoon sun, incandescents, reflected light, etc. But light that tints everything like the Renewal or Blu-ray colors simply doesn't happen. That's why Renewal and the Blu-rays look off.

I'm betting the colors from the Second Impact Box are even better.

sephirotic wrote:I'm now curious to see if Episode 21 has two different film stock masters too since there is no animation differences, only added scenes

Incorrect. There are animation differences in Episode 21:
  • Kaji's face is redrawn for his final scene.
  • The last shot of Yui's face when she talks to Fuyutsuki in her first scene is different. The animation depicting a shift in her expression is actually removed!
  • When young Rei's face fades into Yui's, psychedelic colors and a heat-wave effect are added.
  • Young Ritsuko's clothing is redrawn for her first Gehirn scene.
  • Young Ritsuko's expression while riding the train is different.

And this is just from memory (from when I was working on a project about a year and a half ago), so there are likely other differences. Plus there are shots you can call a hybrid between an alteration and an addition, like the shot of the phone in the first scene with Kaji, or the photo of Yui, Gendo, and Fuyutsuki that replaces the montage of news articles.
Edit: Just checked. If it matters to you, these two changes are only in the DC version (as opposed to both the DC version and the non-DC Renewal version).

Edit: And if I had realized so many of these changes were in the non-DC version of Renewal, I would have added them to my recent list. I would describe most of them as minor cosmetic changes, some of which I like—but not the missing animation from Yui's expression with Fuyutsuki, and especially not the effects for when Rei's face fades into Yui's.
SPOILER: Show
While the added colors and effects convey a better sense of Naoko's emotions (which probably include some combination of shock, jealousy, disgust, pain, resentment, hatred, and of course, murderous rage), this change has the potential to make it difficult for a first-time viewer to recognize Yui's face, and I think that recognition is very important for the viewer's comprehension, because it provides one of the clues that allows the viewer to piece together the connection between Yui and Rei.


Edit: And it looks like there are even more differences mentioned in the link Reichu posted that I either forgot about or missed.

sephirotic wrote:the rest of the redrawn cells are all better

I don't see what's better about the Angel not fully disappearing.

sephirotic wrote:the rest of the redrawn cells are all better, particularly, the drawings of Asuka as a Child in the beginning of episode 22 were REALLY awful in the original, she looked like a midget with a giant head

Little kids ARE midgets with giant heads. ;) But seriously, I consider the changes to those shots a cosmetic difference that doesn't even come close to outweighing the changes I highlighted. I'm mostly indifferent about the re-drawings of Asuka, but to critique them (keep in mind these differences are far more subtle than the ones I felt were necessary to point out), I think there are some things you're overlooking in the original version. In the first shot of her and in the next one a few moments later, Asuka's general expression is one of toughness. But there's a subtle complexity to her expression in the original that gives her a little more depth—a vulnerability trembling beneath her steel exterior. It could be pain or uncertainty, but whatever it is, she isn't quite as resolute. Whereas in the Renewal version, she just looks tough. I think the complexity in the original works well because it's more telling of Asuka's character. She isn't invincible, and no matter how hard she tries to trick herself into believing she is, she knows she isn't. This hint of vulnerability would undoubtedly only be even more evident in her early childhood, especially given the tragic context of what's happening in her life during that scene.

Back to that first shot, the child-like proportions are emphasized to a greater degree in the original. The Renewal re-drawing makes her look older. Either way, she still looks like a little kid, so it doesn't matter to me. As for the even less important details, what's drawn better in the original includes the top contour of her bangs, the cuffs around the adult's wrist (which look more three dimensional by wrapping around better), and the bottom contours of the bow under Asuka's neck. Most of the improvements in the Renewal re-drawing aren't as important as the expression and proportions: her ears are drawn better, as are the bows in her hair, and the outer contours of her hair dropping down behind her head (as for the top contour of the bangs I mentioned, they appear sanded down and more formless). So I'm surprised to hear you say that by comparison, the drawing looks “REALLY awful in the original.” I mean, given that, you must think a good chunk of the entire series looks really awful. The only shot I like better in Renewal is Asuka's profile shot.
Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles
The End of Evangelion: Fansub Amalgamation
Evangelion fan since 1996. Former Eva Mailing List member (late '90s).

sephirotic
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 282
Joined: Jun 29, 2009
Location: SP
Gender: Male

Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby sephirotic » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:52 pm

View Original PostMjolnir Mark IV#857885 wrote:No, I'm not just right about Episode 22, I'm right about ALL of the changes I pointed out! They all exist. Let's not understate this. You made a huge deal of denying the fact that they all exist, which did a good job at making me look like I was full of shit...but even worse, it has the potential to actually misinform people reading this by leading them to believe that not all of these changes exist, because so much of this thread is cluttered by definitive statements you made that make it look as though you were stating the facts, and as if I were spreading false information. (...)
Don't forget about the sound effect change in Episode 24.
(...)
Again, you're drawing attention away from my point, which is the changes worth mentioning (outside of the Director's Cut). I honestly can't tell whether your enthusiasm is causing you to change the topic (which is fine), or if you're trying to defend your credibility by understating your mistake and piling trivia on top of it.

Let's try to remain calm here. I'm really sorry if I displeased you with my writing. It is difficult to be emphatic passionate and humble at the same time in a second language.
Look, I already admitted that my memory was wrong regarding Episode 22 (and 21) OA version of the BD not having replaced animated scenes. I apologize for that. However, my mistake does not diminish the main point I wanted to convey. I'll repeat myself: I really appreciate and recognize all the immense work you have done with your VHS sub project, just skimming through all documentation and scripts you have put in your zip files, even the edited .png files for individual episodes, is an amazing job I don't dear to criticize.

However, you were also incorrect in some accounts and statements you have made yourself. You also seem to continue to ignore that the BD have the old pre-renewal audio mix, so several of your listing of "changes" are a non-issue. The questioning you bring about the color issues of the BD while partially true, is incorrect when claiming that the overall color, luminance and picture of the DVDs are better. And regardless of that, even if I agree with you that Episode 1, 22 and also 21 and 19 have some small questionable changes, without entering the merit of either they being good or bad (you should give more credit to Anno choosing to ALTER HIS WORK before telling people not to watch the altered episodes), the fact still remains that the series have another 22 unaltered episodes which would simply be better to be watched in BD!
While I appreciate your work, and it is of course perfect valid for you to make subs for whatever release version of Eva you seem fit, I got disturbed as you responded to me with the fact that you recommend the Perfect Collection as "overall better" than the Blu Ray the way you did. Just as you are worried that people may misinterpret my claims, I was also worried of people misinterpreting your subjective and sometimes also objectively incorrect claims of the superiority of the Perfect Collection, and that those people would eventually think it would be better to watch Eva in DVD instead of BD. That is utterly nonsense!
If you had just said "I personally prefer the Perfect DVDs for my own subjective reasons", that would be fine, but when you said "it wasn't because of nostalgia" and started arguing why the Perfect Collection were superior I simply couldn't remain silent!

The ghosting you're referring to is actually something called blended frames. I fixed that too. The AVS scripts included in the download for these subtitles will automatically restore the video to its original/base framerate by using Srestore to unblend it to 23.976 fps. That, combined with QTGMC (also in my scripts), does a terrific job at fixing the inadequacies you mentioned. The only small downside is that the intro sequence, which is the only part of each episode that actually was 29.97 fps, loses some of its frames due to the AVI limitation of requiring a constant framerate. But test it out, and you'll find it's a small price to pay.

I know very well what "blended" frames on an interlaced telecine capture means. It is pretty irresponsible, not to say, absurd, to claim that QTGMC and srestore are more than enough to fully fix the effects of telecine. That is FALSE. They barely begin to diminish the issues. While in theory the process should be easy: blend the lines of two fields together and exclude two duplicated frames in a group of five pictures, In practice with bad capturing equipment and a low bitrate MPEG2 video, the blended frames "bleeds" and smudges several follow up frames (not only the repeated ones!) creating "ghosting" artifacts (to what I referred) which are virtually impossible to be detected and cleaned automatically by any high complexity Avisynth filter in existence. Unless you clean frames individually in photoshop, you will still have lots of remainders of the blended frames in the form of "ghosting" in several frames. I'm no amateur when it comes to video, I worked professionally as a video editor in the past. And like I said before, blending and ghosting are not the only problems of the old DVD release, add haloing, chroma bleeding, moire, bitstarvation, film flickering, limited compressed BT470bg color format as well as Broadcast 80% NTSC limitation, bigger cropping, yellow and greenish tints and a simply lack of resolution, and you get a gigantic pile of eyesore that is simply impossible to be improved to even come close to the level of picture quality of the Blu ray and would impact the immersion and enjoyment factor of whoever is watching! This is no trivial matter even if you completely and conveniently committed a Red Herring while ignoring this part of my previous comment whilst nitpicking and hackslashing several other statements you had better counter arguments to quote from me. (Also, I'd strongly discourage people from using XVID. even on Virtual dub with avi it is possible to use x264vfw, at least you can make sure to set the correct primaries to bt470bg there)

The Perfect Collection colors look better:
http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0B4fNpxiuCvtESW93enFoaldaR00
You know why? Because light that casts a warm tint over everything like the Perfect Collection is common in real life: a late afternoon sun, incandescents, reflected light, etc. But light that tints everything like the Renewal or Blu-ray colors simply doesn't happen. That's why Renewal and the Blu-rays look off.

Difficult for me to criticize this late statement politely because it is blatantly incorrect, not to say irresponsible (again). You are completely lacking objectivity and technical knowledge about photography and lighting to actually not see how most of the light cast on the Perfect collection is due to incorrect white balance of either the projector's light or the film negative while making that statement. Claiming the old Perfect Collection looks yellow because it "mimics a sunset" is giddy. The variations of yellow, blue, red and green tint on the film capture of the old DVD formats were OBVIOUSLY not intended by the creators. There are, of course, cases of intentional color casts such as the sunset on episode 16 and 24, the bloody scene of episode 16 and 19, the helltrain scenes, the Red street on episode 4, or the blueish hospital scenes. Those are proper examples of intentional color tints made by the producers of the series, but even those scenes change slightly from capture to capture. All minor color variations ARE TECHNICAL IMPRECISIONS OF THE CAPTURING EQUIPMENT! 90's analog anime DIDN'T HAVE COLOR GRADING! Artistic choices were made pretty obvious on the coloring process or pretty distinct color filters on the lighting of the capture machine. That is not the level of change we are talking here, the variations we see in your example are not intentional! By the way, last time I checked, Misato's hair was definitely Dark purple, NOT light blue, the colors of that picture you posted are obviously worse on the Perfect Collection for my eyes. There is chroma bleeding on the edges. The white-point on her eyes are almost 10% lacking on the blue channel, while less than 5% on the right picture. Reds are also retracted on the mid-tones, her jacket looks orangish and her red lipstick is muffled. There is some excess green on the darker tones too.

We are going too much offtopic here, maybe it is the case of spliting these posts into a new thread, but I'll continue nevertheless for this last post:
Yes, some episodes of the renewal remaster had poor color reproduction, infamously episode 19 is the worse, which I wrote a full article talking about, but the others are much more consistent and even if the shadows have a blue shift, most of the rest of the colors of the older versions are objectively worse.
http://diff.pics/tx6QeCq30hxt/1
First image is a perfect example, we can see the crushed blue-shift on the tree trunk from the BD version. Is it worse? Yes, however, the rest of the picture have mushed colors on the older versions. The subtle different tones of the autumn leaves are lost on the Perfect and Archival collection. BD is CLEARLY better. Same goes for other pictures, number 2 looks darker and bluer on the BD? Yes, but at least Hyuga's and Misato's hairs are not green. Third picture is a complete green mess, subtle nuances of colors in the hardware are lost, perfect collection is particularly bad having lost shadow detail on the desks on the left corner. Forth picture, same issues, fifth picture, Asuka's hair may look better on archival, but her plugsuit looks almost orange due to the excessive yellow cast that makes even her seat looks off. Sixth picture doesn't even need commentary, last picture, dark mushy poor contrast, yellow~reddish cast on the background white, again some poor shadow color balance makes Misato's hair darker shade looks green. Not to mention the awful loss of detail, particular for the Perfect collection compared to the BD version. It is not even a contest.
Now, just to be honest, here are a set with more questionable choices where the pre-renewal fair a little better:
http://diff.pics/KE9A9YxffAv8/7
First shot may have a different painting for Gendou's hair but we can see how ridiculously green the whole picture is, again, Perfect Collection suffers from exposition the most, you can't even tell the real color of Fuyutsuki's boots. Second and third Third picture are just to illustrate that I agree that darker exposition suffers from severe blue shift on the BD, there is no way to save Misato's top black color to look proper, but at least on my color correction version, I have balanced the remaining yellowish colors on highlights and the exposition better than the Perfect and Archival version. But look how worse the Perfect Collection is on the third picture, it also IS bluer than the "original" Archival, the crushed black is even worse than the BD, you can't see the Sega Saturn's power cable and it looks quite green. 4th picture is a mixed bag, exposition is clearly better on the BD but colors are not ideal either. However, Perfect still suffers from a strong pinkish tint on the highlights (almost 20% more red than it should on Ayanami's plug suit. NO that is NOT due to LCL.) and the infamous green tint on the darker shades. I still consider it worse than the BD. Fifth picture has an excess blue tint on the highlights on the BD, but at least the sky is not green like in the Perfect version. This image is nice to reflect how awful the resolution of the DVD is and how much less detail it has, specially on the Perfect Collection which has less than half of the bitrate of the archival, on a fast pan. Unit 01 looks ridiculously blurred. Sixth color's looks similar, although ONCE AGAIN the metal platform looks too greenish on the Perfect version, and there is some serious color bleeding around Misato's hair and jacket. Last example is problematic on BOTH sources. BD is too much blue, but the Perfect collection once again suffers from too much green. Between excess green and excess blue, the latter is always preferable, tough, and of course, the overall much more resolution on the BD always put a nail on the coffin of any DVD version when the colors are not really that worse anyway. (By the way, keep in mind I have a calibrated AH-IPS 2713H dell to evaluate all those colors).

There are, of course, some trade offs, sometimes there are more shadow detail in the Archival version, the blue-shift is particularly bad on night scenes like the Hikari's room I posted, but like I said, overall claiming the light and color of the DVD's being better is... "irresponsible", and the Perfect collection is much worse than the Archival. If I wanted someone to have the "most pure nostalgic original 90's feeling" while watching Eva, I'd recommend the Archival, NOT the Perfect collection.

I think there are some things you're overlooking in the original version. In the first shot of her and in the next one a few moments later, Asuka's general expression is one of toughness. But there's a subtle complexity to her expression in the original that gives her a little more depth—a vulnerability trembling (...)
Back to that first shot, the child-like proportions are emphasized to a greater degree in the original. The Renewal re-drawing makes her look older. (...)her ears are drawn better, as are the bows in her hair, and the outer contours of her hair dropping down behind her head (as for the top contour of the bangs I mentioned, they appear sanded down and more formless). So I'm surprised to hear you say that by comparison, the drawing looks “REALLY awful in the original.” I mean, given that, you must think a good chunk of the entire series looks really awful. The only shot I like better in Renewal is Asuka's profile shot.


I disagree with your subjective analysis of the redrawings of Asuka as a child. Subjectively, to me, I who first saw the pre-renewal version of Eva hundreds of times, I welcome the changes. The drawings on episode 22 that were replaced were almost all worse in my opinion. Particular on the profile view of Asuka on the beginning of the Episode, her ear looks immense for a child, the bigger the ear, the older the person. I don't care if the original had more detailed ears, they were ridiculous big! I trust that the changes of expression chosen by Anno were what he actually wanted to convey. You should give him more credit, not treat him like an Idiot like George Lucas. Anyway, we could extend this debate regarding the choices of changes from the old OA to the Renewal (as well as the one regarding colors) ad infinitum. But I think I have already polluted and derailed this thread that should have been about your project with myself butting in. This should continue in a different thread. I'm sorry the discussion evolved the way it did. I think is about time for me to go. Regardless of my disagreement with your dismissal of the BD's, I still wish you to keep up with your good work. Once again, thanks for the subtitles and excuse me for my rudeness.
-----------------------------------------------------
Re-watching Eva since 1999
-----------------------------------------------------

Mjolnir Mark IV
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 19, 2012

Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:51 am

To anyone reading this, don't believe anything sephirotic says about my opinion or what he says I've said. Please, take it from me instead and read what I have already written if you want to know my perspective, because it is very different from what he claims.

And don't listen to what he says about the Perfect Collection either. The video quality is substandard (the first four episodes in particular), but he's making it sound much worse than it actually is by exaggerating, and by posting screenshots that falsely represent it, like the one on the right in this comparison I made:
http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view& ... ElRbWtRcVk

@ sephirotic:
You are literally making up things I said. Your reply is littered with slander and bloated by arguments against points that I never even made in the first place. I'd appreciate it if you'd quote me instead of doing that. You are making assumptions in bulk and twisting what I say, and if you continue at this rate, this debate could go on forever because you are inventing imaginary arguments faster than the real ones are developing. In a very real sense, you are arguing with a fictitious character that you invented, and expecting me to defend him. And that's just absurd.

The number of groundless defamatory accusations you've made against me is beyond stupefying. You've gone off on tangential tirades that could have been completely avoided had you simply asked a question instead. If you don't understand something, then please: ask. There's no shame in asking...I do it. But don't jump to conclusions. That wastes everyone's time by bloating the thread with nonsense.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Let's try to remain calm here.

You should take your own advice. But I think you're confusing me not being calm with the importance I place on being clear about the facts. In my last post, I called you out for understating a huge mistake (repeatedly and emphatically making statements that are factually incorrect). And I expect no less from you or anyone else if I ever make the same mistake. I know it looks like I came down on you hard, but there's a good reason for it:

If you had made the same mistake in an email, I can guarantee you I wouldn't have made a big deal about it, even if you had understated your mistake. I laugh about that kind of thing with friends and probably would have laughed about it with you had we been talking in person. But because this is public, I felt it was my duty to step forward and be very clear about which information is factually incorrect, and which isn't. When a thread is as bloated with contradictions between two people as this one is, clarity about the facts is paramount. Especially when other people are reading. They deserve not to be given false information.

I didn't like having to call you out, but I'm still convinced it was the right thing to do, and it's not personal. If my choice in words upset you, then I apologize. Clarity was my priority, and there was no intentional hostility.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:It is difficult to be emphatic passionate and humble at the same time in a second language.

Being humble wasn't the issue. What bothered me is that instead of completely owning up to your mistake and being clear about it, you understated it and shifted focus away from it.

As for ESL, I greatly respect that. But your English is at a high level. You don't have to shout in caps (or use so many adverse exclamation points) to be emphatic with your opinion. The only thing that really adds is the potential for you to look hostile. That's what I meant when I said you should take your own advice and try to remain calm.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:I really appreciate and recognize all the immense work you have done with your VHS sub project, just skimming through all documentation and scripts you have put in your zip files, even the edited .png files for individual episodes, is an amazing job I don't dear to criticize.

Well, thank you very much!

For anyone else reading, the PNG files he's referring to are the shot restorations I've mentioned before (more than twenty in total). Some of these shots will be updated for the next release. There's one issue in particular with the AVS script for a shot in Episode 4 that I caught pretty much immediately after uploading the subtitles in 2015, but with the recent work I did on the subtitles for The End of Evangelion and another related project, it's been on the back burner. Plus I didn't want to do a second release just for that one correction. The current script functions, it's just that the sunrise shot in Episode 4 has a small bouncing motion that needs to be removed.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:However, you were also incorrect in some accounts and statements you have made yourself.

Such as...?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:You also seem to continue to ignore that the BD have the old pre-renewal audio mix,

I have openly acknowledged that already. How is that “ignoring”? What more do you want me to say about it?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:so several of your listing of "changes" are a non-issue.

Just because the BD includes the original audio as an option doesn’t mean the important differences between the audio options shouldn't be pointed out. Surely not everyone knows that the default audio of the Blu-ray has things like missing music, sound effects that create continuity breaks, and both music and sound effect changes that (in my opinion) fail to punctuate key moments of the story as effectively. The fact remains that all of the changes I highlighted are prevalent in the vast majority of Evangelion releases in circulation, whether or not the audio option on the Blu-ray gives people the option to bypass some of those changes. Chances are, people will be affected by all of those changes, so it's best to be clear about all of them.

The bottom line is that the Blu-ray set is not the original version of the series, and the alternative audio track alone is not enough to change that. Edited video + original audio does not equal the original version. It equals edited video + original audio.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:The questioning you bring about the color issues of the BD while partially true,

Partially true? What part of what I said about the BD color issues isn't true?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:is incorrect when claiming that the overall color, luminance and picture of the DVDs are better.

The only part of what you just said is true is that I have indicated that the overall color is better in the DVDs, especially the original version of the series (before it was edited with Renewal changes for the releases now commonly available). Otherwise, you're inventing something I never said. I never said the luminance and picture quality was better than the BD. I didn't know the BD well enough to say anything about its luminance, and obviously the picture quality of a Blu-ray is going to be higher than a DVD—I never said anything even remotely close to indicate otherwise.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:you should give more credit to Anno choosing to ALTER HIS WORK before telling people not to watch the altered episodes

Again, you're inventing something I never said. I never told anyone not to watch the altered episodes. All I've done is encourage people to give the original version of the series a chance, as it was before it was edited with the Renewal changes.

And for the record, I do honor Anno's creative decisions. But people should have a choice over which set of creative decisions they get to enjoy. And at the very least, they should be aware that there is a choice, and what the differences are between the original version and the edited version with Renewal changes. And I think that's important, because what makes the original version of the series different is something people seem not to know about.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:the fact still remains that the series have another 22 unaltered episodes which would simply be better to be watched in BD!

It is not a fact that it would be better to watch them on BD, that's your opinion. Here's an actual fact for you. A survey found that 18% of HDTV owners can't tell the difference between SD and HD:
http://gizmodo.com/5107455/do-you-think ... -and-1080p

But the problem with that survey is its lack of scientific control: it was done over the telephone, which means the viewer's distance from the TV couldn't be directly controlled, and that the survey would have allowed for close scrutiny of the TV by the viewer that wouldn't normally occur under typical viewing conditions.

So what about typical viewing conditions? What difference does HD make to us then? The results may surprise you. A study found that under typical viewing conditions, most people can't tell the difference between SD and HD:
https://www.geek.com/news/most-viewers- ... ds-928912/

That's hard to believe, I know—but it's a fact. And even if you don't believe it, it doesn't matter because that's not the point anyway. What's important is not how many people can tell the difference, but how much the difference matters to them. Of the people who can tell the difference (regardless of what that percentage is), how many would actually have a worse experience due to a movie being in SD rather than HD? That would make for an interesting study. But I can guarantee you, not everyone is going to have a worse time. I have no doubt that given a choice over any given movie, a person will choose HD over SD. But when they're actually in the act of watching it, will they really enjoy the movie more because it's in HD? Maybe they will if they have a high attention to detail, or if they've seen the film an extensive number of times, but even still, I think the quality of the story is going to affect them on a much higher level than the resolution of the video.

Think about it this way: would you rather watch a bad movie in HD, or a great movie in SD? I know that's an extreme comparison, but do you get the point? The quality of the story is much more important than the quality of the video, at least with the difference we're talking about. That's why I would much rather watch the original version of the series in SD (and that includes the Perfect Collection) rather than the edited version with Renewal changes in HD (aka the Blu-ray).

Same thing for color: would you rather watch the series in black and white HD? Or in color SD? Yes, it's another extreme comparison, but the point is that color is an important factor that can't be discounted. That's why I'd rather have better color in SD, like the original version of the series (including the Perfect Collection), over worse colors in HD, like the Blu-ray release. Likewise, I also like the colors in the original version better than the DVD releases of the edited version with Renewal changes (such as the Platinum Edition).

The original version of the series has more impactful moments due to different music, sound effects, and animation; and as an overarching benefit, the colors are better and there are less glaring continuity breaks. Yes, the Blu-ray addresses some of this by including the original audio track as an option, but that doesn't revert all of the Renewal changes, and that means the difference essentially comes down to a better story and better colors versus higher resolution. And a stronger story in SD outweighs a weaker story in HD—especially when the SD has more natural looking colors.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:I got disturbed as you responded to me with the fact that you recommend the Perfect Collection as "overall better" than the Blu Ray the way you did.

I think that's because you're confusing the word “version” with the word “release,” which I have been very careful about when choosing my words. It's the original version of the series which includes the Perfect Collection release, that I think is overall better than the edited version with Renewal changes, such as the Blu-ray release. Note that each version includes multiple releases (and that the edited version with Renewal changes is the version people are probably most familiar with).

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Just as you are worried that people may misinterpret my claims,

No, let's get this right. I'm not worried about people misinterpreting your claims. I'm worried that people will read the comments you made stating incorrect facts and actually believe them. That isn't misinterpretation. That would be accurate interpretation of false statements.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:I was also worried of people misinterpreting your subjective and sometimes also objectively incorrect claims of the superiority of the Perfect Collection,

Again, you're inventing something I never said. I never said the Perfect Collection is superior. It's the original version of the series that I think is better, and the Perfect Collection just so happens to be the most accessible release of that version. I've been consistent with my position on the Perfect Collection from the beginning, as anyone who reads this thread in its entirety can plainly see. My position on it has even been documented since 2015, in the release notes included in the download for these subtitles.

And as anyone who reads those release notes can see, accessibility has also been documented since 2015 as being an important factor. The fact that the Perfect Collection is the most accessible release of the original version of the series is the only reason I chose it as the base for these subtitles, and why you hear me mention it so often or use it as an example to represent the original version. But if it helps shed some light on the subject, here's a more detailed explanation:

From 2013–2015 when I was making these subtitles, it seemed unreasonable to require people to shell out over $400 on the Second Impact Box just to try my subtitles. Since then, the Archives of Evangelion have been released, but again, accessibility is an issue. It's not as expensive as the Second Impact Box, but it isn't nearly as accessible as the Perfect Collection either. And the Perfect Collection isn't just cheaper, it's also more commonly available: it's at public libraries, and chances are, if you borrow a copy of the original version of the series from a friend, you're going to end up with the Perfect Collection—not the Second Impact Box or the Archives DVDs. And that's because the Perfect Collection has been in circulation since 2002 and has had wider distribution (it's the only digital release of the original version of the series in North America and Europe). In terms of the original version of the series, it's the easiest release for people to get their hands on by far. That's the reason I chose it rather than the Second Impact Box.

I highly value authenticity and quality, but I simply could not deny that in this case, accessibility was a huge factor in making this project a practical thing for people to try. I'm more than aware of the Perfect Collection's reputation for substandard video quality (although I think much of this should be attributed to the first four episodes in particular), and I imagine the number of people interested in a project that uses it is probably diminished because of that reputation—but I bet the number of people who are actually able to try my project out would be even fewer had I chosen the Second Impact Box, or the Archives DVDs.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:and that those people would eventually think it would be better to watch Eva in DVD instead of BD. That is utterly nonsense!

It isn't nonsense at all to people who value more impactful moments in the story over video resolution, or color over resolution, or less glaring continuity breaks over resolution. Don't exclude those types of people, because they might prefer the original version instead of the Blu-ray, or instead of any release of the edited version with Renewal changes for that matter. What is nonsense is that you're phrasing your opinions as if they're facts, and making definitive statements as if my opinions are factually incorrect.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:If you had just said "I personally prefer the Perfect DVDs for my own subjective reasons", that would be fine,

If you actually believe what you just said, then you should practice what you preach when talking about what you “personally prefer,” rather than making definitive statements as if your opinions are facts.

Also, even when not providing extra clarification, it should be obvious based on the context when we are talking about facts, and when we are stating opinions. The problem is that you explicitly state your opinion as if it's fact, which distorts the truth rather than providing clarification.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:but when you said "it wasn't because of nostalgia" and started arguing why the Perfect Collection were superior I simply couldn't remain silent!

Again, you're inventing something I never said. And you are taking a subject out of its original context and applying it to a different topic. We were talking about triple lines, not whether or not the Perfect Collection is superior. What I said was this:
    “I kept triple lines intact for a number of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with nostalgia”
That means some of the reasons I chose to keep triple lines do have to do with nostalgia. It's just that nostalgia was not the pervading factor. And again, I never said the Perfect Collection is superior. It's the original version of the series that I like better, and the Perfect Collection just so happens to be the most accessible release of it.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:It is pretty irresponsible, not to say, absurd, to claim that QTGMC and srestore are more than enough to fully fix the effects of telecine. That is FALSE.

So, tell that to the guy who said it. Again, you are inventing. The subjects being discussed were interlaced video and blended frames. I never said anything to indicate I was including the broader topic of telecine. And I never said “fully fix.” I said “a terrific job at fixing.” There's an important difference between the two. “Fully fix” is much more inclusive.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:the blended frames "bleeds" and smudges several follow up frames (not only the repeated ones!) creating "ghosting" artifacts (to what I referred) which are virtually impossible to be detected and cleaned automatically by any high complexity Avisynth filter in existence. Unless you clean frames individually in photoshop, you will still have lots of remainders of the blended frames in the form of "ghosting" in several frames.

Because of what I fixed with the video, the remaining traces you're talking about are so subtle and happen so fast, most people watching are not going to see them. The majority of what you're talking about is something that is probably only obvious to the average viewer when they put the video in slow motion, or go frame by frame, or do a screenshot comparison, or put a short segment on loop, etc. I seriously doubt the average viewer is going to see any of what you're talking about during a typical viewing.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:I'm no amateur when it comes to video, I worked professionally as a video editor in the past.

I don't doubt your experience. What I doubt is your credibility, because I know you have a tendency to make extreme exaggerations that cross well into the realm of falsity. It's leading me to question the authenticity of everything you say, because I know you're willing to make wild exaggerations if you think it can make your opinion more convincing.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:add haloing, chroma bleeding, moire, bitstarvation, film flickering, limited compressed BT470bg color format as well as Broadcast 80% NTSC limitation, bigger cropping, yellow and greenish tints and a simply lack of resolution, and you get a gigantic pile of eyesore that is simply impossible to be improved to even come close to the level of picture quality of the Blu ray and would impact the immersion and enjoyment factor of whoever is watching!

Based on what you just said, and based on the fact that you posted screenshots that you say are from the Perfect Collection that are in fact NOT from the Perfect Collection, I have no idea which “release” you're actually describing. If it were actually the Perfect Collection you were talking about, I would have a lot more to say about what you just said. But since it looks like that's not the case, I'm going to skip over it.

You also completely derailed the point of my comment. I was clarifying what I did to fix the video in response to an implication you made that there were things I could have fixed but didn't. You clarified what you meant when you said “ghosting,” which is fine. But by also responding with a technical dump/tirade (and one about some bootleg or variant that you falsely claim is the Perfect Collection no less), you're drawing attention away from the point I was making, which is that I made improvements to the video, like the AviSynth scripts included in the download that will automatically de-interlace video, unblend frames, and restore more than twenty shots. I think all of that together makes the Perfect Collection much better than what people are used to expecting from it.

The fact that you are repeatedly drawing attention away from the improvements I made to the video quality is disheartening, especially when you're the loudest person participating in the discussion here. And I'm not asking for praise. If there's something I could have done better, then please, tell me—that's what I want to hear more than anything, even if you don't know what the solution is. But if there's some personal reason you have for why you don't want people to try my project and why you keep pushing the Blu-ray so hard (as opposed to why you favor it, which you've already made quite clear), then I'd like to know what it is. And please, be honest with both me and yourself if you do decide to tell me.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:This is no trivial matter even if you completely and conveniently committed a Red Herring while ignoring this part of my previous comment whilst nitpicking and hackslashing several other statements you had better counter arguments to quote from me.

I honestly don't understand what this sentence means. If it's important to you, please elaborate.

The only part I do understand is that you don't like how I'm quoting you. But you have to understand, in many cases, even a single sentence you write is packed full of inaccuracy, falsity, and outright slander. The only logical way to reply is to address it one step at a time. Otherwise, by the time I finish addressing one part of what you said, I'll have to reintroduce what was already quoted to add context to each sup-topic by paraphrasing you, and that uses more words, which takes up more of my time writing, and ultimately takes up more of other people's time reading. Paraphrasing, increasing the amount of text, and replying long after the relevant quote all increase the chances of the reader's comprehension going down. Replying directly under the relevant part of the quote provides immediate context, and reduces the potential for miscommunication. These posts would be even bigger if I didn't do it that way. It's better to just paste in the relevant quote than to change someone's words by falsely paraphrasing them as you have done. That puts words in my mouth (which is very frustrating, by the way), has the potential to mislead other people reading, and inflates each post by increasing the number of unnecessary tangents, as too much of this thread has demonstrated.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Also, I'd strongly discourage people from using XVID. even on Virtual dub with avi it is possible to use x264vfw, at least you can make sure to set the correct primaries to bt470bg there

Well, thank you for the recommendation. We're officially back on topic! What's the advantage of setting the correct primaries to bt470bg?

The Perfect Collection colors look better:
    [link to image]
You know why? Because light that casts a warm tint over everything like the Perfect Collection is common in real life: a late afternoon sun, incandescents, reflected light, etc. But light that tints everything like the Renewal or Blu-ray colors simply doesn't happen. That's why Renewal and the Blu-rays look off.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Difficult for me to criticize this late statement politely because it is blatantly incorrect, not to say irresponsible (again).

How is making an observation about colors “blatantly incorrect and irresponsible?”

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:You are completely lacking objectivity and technical knowledge about photography and lighting to actually not see how most of the light cast on the Perfect collection is due to incorrect white balance of either the projector's light or the film negative while making that statement

Nobody needs technical knowledge about photography or lighting to say whether or not colors look off. You're replying to a comment I made about what viewers see when they watch, not the technical process. I was making an observation as to what causes the human brain to interpret the colors as being off, not what the technical cause is for it being off.

And how am I lacking in objectivity?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Claiming the old Perfect Collection looks yellow because it "mimics a sunset" is giddy.

Again, you're inventing something I never said.
  • I never said the Perfect Collection looks “yellow.” I referred to the screenshot as having a warm tint (more on that later).
  • I never said anything about what causes the tint in the animation. I gave examples of common circumstances in which a similar tint can occur in the real world that people are used to seeing on a regular basis, which therefore forms the basis of their comparison when looking at shots like the two I was comparing.
  • I never said anything about the Perfect Collection “mimicking” anything. I was referring to lighting situations in the real world that resemble the color range created by the tint in that shot.
  • I never said anything about a “sunset.” As just one of three examples I used to make a general comparison, I compared the color of the tint to the color of late afternoon light, which is golden. Sunset light, on the other hand, can be anything between golden, orange, or red. “Sunsets” can have any number of colors, such as yellow, orange, red, purple, blue, pink, etc.
I appreciate that you quoted me. That at least allowed me to understand what the source was for your response, so I could address specifically what's wrong with it. But when you change each word and then re-arrange them like you did, the words no longer have the same meaning. If you keep doing this, it's only going to exponentially increase the size of each of these already-bloated posts by requiring me to clean up what you say, as I've had to do far too often in this post. Please use something closer to the wording I used when referring to what I said—or when in doubt, use the exact words—because you're completely changing the meaning and twisting what I said.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:All minor color variations ARE TECHNICAL IMPRECISIONS OF THE CAPTURING EQUIPMENT!

I never said otherwise, so no need to shout at me. Again, I wasn't talking about the technical cause for the tint. And again, this is what I meant when I said you should take your own advice and try to remain calm.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:90's analog anime DIDN'T HAVE COLOR GRADING!

I never said it did, so again, there's no need to shout. And if it's true what you say, maybe that's a good thing. I would rather have the colors be the way they turned out in the '90s than have the colors be tweaked the way they are in the Blu-ray.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Artistic choices were made pretty obvious on the coloring process or pretty distinct color filters on the lighting of the capture machine. That is not the level of change we are talking here, the variations we see in your example are not intentional!

I never said they were intentional. And to clarify, the colors are better despite the unintentional shift in color. Intentional or not, what matters most is the end result.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:By the way, last time I checked, Misato's hair was definitely Dark purple, NOT light blue

And to throw your logic and sass back at you, the last time I checked, Misato's jacket was red, NOT dark pink. You see? The colors are off in both examples, it's just a question of which set of colors looks more natural.

And do you honestly think that people who saw the original version of the series first actually mistook Misato's hair for light blue?

More to the point, you are completely disregarding color constancy, which is a huge factor in determining how the human brain interprets color. All the colors in the Perfect Collection shot have a warm tint—not just her hair—so all colors have a more-or-less uniform shift in color. So relatively speaking, in the context of the surrounding colors, her hair color is not out of place. A color fitting in chromatically with the surrounding colors is a more important factor than the color as it stands on its own. If there were actual blue in that shot, it would be more clear to you that Misato's hair is not blue in terms of how the human brain interprets a color based on its context.

Color constancy is what allows our brains to interpret local color under various lighting conditions, including those in which a color range is tinted. And that's why Misato's hair is purple in the Perfect Collection, despite what your eye dropper tool will tell you, or what you're able to observe when the color is isolated. Skim through the episodes randomly, and you'll see what I mean, especially in shots that do actually have blue. The only time you really see the color of her hair shift is of course for the obviously intentional tints or palette changes.

Another factor to consider that could be making her hair look more blue in that shot is its close proximity to the Blu-ray shot next to it. Because the color of her hair in the Blu-ray shot is more purple by comparison, it could be making her hair in the Perfect Collection shot next to it look less purple than it would if you were watching the episode on its own.

And even if we were to analyze the hair color as it stands on its own, if you honestly think the color is “light blue” in that shot, then I don't trust your eyes. That color is not by any stretch of the imagination “light.”

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:There is chroma bleeding on the edges.

You are correct, but you're holding up a magnifying glass to a very subtle detail that the average viewer is not going to notice under typical viewing conditions unless they are actively searching for it (and that's if they even understand what it is they're supposed to be searching for in the first place). Even then, I doubt anyone would spot it. Most people would have to be scrutinizing a screenshot in order to see anything.

If what you're claiming is that chroma bleeding actually bothers you when you're in the act of watching the Perfect Collection, then I don't believe you. Not unless you're from Krypton.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:The white-point on her eyes are almost 10% lacking on the blue channel, while less than 5% on the right picture.

If that's true (I'm not even going to bother to check), it's irrelevant. You're talking about an imperceptible color shift. And by honing in on such a tiny detail, you're failing to see the big picture, which is how the colors look overall. A minor shift in color purity is insignificant compared to whether or not the color range is harmonious, at least with the differences we're talking about. In other words, how natural the color range looks is more important than how pure any given color is within that range. And I would argue that the color range in the original version of the series (which includes the Perfect Collection shot) is better because it's a more natural looking color range. And the reason it's more natural looking is because it's a closer match to the color ranges that are common in the real world. That's what I was getting at with those examples I made in my last post.

And to expand on that, I think the color range in the original version of the series is also more harmonious than in the Blu-ray shot. Notice how the whites appear to be glowing in the Blu-ray shot, and how there almost seems to be unique temperature and value shifts for each individual color, almost like someone tweaked individual colors or values and was strangely selective about how much each color/value was shifted, the end result of which is that color constancy is somewhat compromised.

And much like the chroma bleeding you mentioned, if a difference this small actually bothers anyone under typical viewing conditions, I would be in disbelief.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Reds are also retracted on the mid-tones, her jacket looks orangish and her red lipstick is muffled.

Oops...I accidentally left a bad renderer enabled when I took the screenshot you're referring to, which ended up making the Perfect Collection colors look worse than they actually are! My mistake. Here's the same comparison again, this time using a screenshot taken with the better renderer I normally use:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4fNp ... GJOMW5RQW8

Notice how compared to the first comparison image I posted, Misato's jacket in the Perfect Collection shot is closer to a true red, and the color of her lips is slightly more distinct.

Also note: that shot isn't a fair representation of the Perfect Collection because episodes 1–4 are an exception in that the video quality is noticeably lower than the rest of the episodes.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:There is some excess green on the darker tones too.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

Again, you're magnifying and isolating insignificant details that people aren't going to notice, instead of stepping back and looking at the big picture, which is much more important. When watching the different versions of the series, people aren't going to be distracted by things like chroma bleeding, the color of the whites of a character's eyes, the precise color of Misato's jacket, or this supposed “excess green.” The only thing most people will notice is whether or not the colors look off. And that's going to be determined by the overall look of the colors and by how well they work together as a unit.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Yes, some episodes of the renewal remaster had poor color reproduction, infamously episode 19 is the worse, which I wrote a full article talking about, but the others are much more consistent

Based on what I've seen, the color issues in episodes besides 19 are still worse than the original version of the series.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:and even if the shadows have a blue shift, most of the rest of the colors of the older versions are objectively worse.

First of all, color preference is subjective, not objective. Claiming your opinion is objective goes beyond exaggeration. It's blatantly false.

Furthermore, it doesn't help if only some of the colors in the Blu-ray are better. What matters is the overall effect of all of the colors together. Which colors fit together as a set and look the best as a whole? For me, it's the more natural-looking color range of the original version of the series.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:http://diff.pics/tx6QeCq30hxt/1

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:http://diff.pics/KE9A9YxffAv8/7

Those shots are NOT from the Perfect Collection! The Perfect Collection has purer color, better picture quality, a more balanced value range that doesn't obliterate objects in the shadows like the shots you posted, and more of the original composition left uncropped. You are falsely representing the Perfect Collection by making it look worse than it actually is!

I'm not going to waste my time creating comparisons for all fourteen shots you posted, but take this one for example (again):
http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view& ... ElRbWtRcVk

But even if you had used screenshots from the Perfect Collection, a screenshot comparison such as the one you've made is inconclusive as a color comparison for two reasons, both of which have to do with inadequate scientific control:
  1. You should be eliminating variables, such as any factors that could potentially influence how the viewer draws a comparison between the screenshots. You're comparing both color and resolution rather than just color alone, and a difference in resolution could potentially influence a person's choice over which screenshot has better colors, even if they're consciously trying to ignore the resolution and only focus on color. To do a true color comparison, you'd have to scale down the larger images and use a blur filter when necessary so that all three sets are equal in both resolution and picture quality (note that I didn't do this with the above comparison I posted because its purpose is to make the false representation of your screenshots clear).
  2. The sample size is far too small. You can hardly represent the colors of the entire series with such a small selection of screenshots that you yourself picked. With so few, you could easily be favoring examples that make your argument more convincing, even if you aren't consciously doing it (read: experimenter bias). The only way to do a fair and objective comparison is to compare every shot in every episode.

I realize that comparing every shot for the sake of making a legitimate color comparison is a massive undertaking that would require an impractical amount of time. But the point is this: you shouldn't even start in the first place if the result is that you show something biased, inconclusive, and potentially misleading, unless you...
  1. ...make it clear that it's a work in progress for a project (and if that's the case, this is not the topic for it).
  2. ...make it clear that you know it's inconclusive and potentially misleading (in which case, you shouldn't use it to make a point in an argument).
But to claim that such a limited and biased selection is a definitive demonstration of which release has the best color is foolhardy.

I'm going to skip over the comments you made about the “Perfect Collection” shots you posted, since they aren't actually from the Perfect Collection! Otherwise, I'd have much more to say. What I will reply to is what you said that pertains to the original version of the series in general. So...

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:First image is a perfect example, we can see the crushed blue-shift on the tree trunk from the BD version. Is it worse? Yes, however, the rest of the picture have mushed colors on the older versions. The subtle different tones of the autumn leaves are lost on the Perfect and Archival collection. BD is CLEARLY better.

The fact that you think the color of the autumn leaves not only looks better in the Blu-ray shot but “CLEARLY better” takes away any credibility you have in terms of color perception. Sorry, but autumn leaves should not look like they were dipped in blue ink!

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Same goes for other pictures, number 2 looks darker and bluer on the BD? Yes, but at least Hyuga's and Misato's hairs are not green.

By green, you're probably referring to certain colors that end up appearing more green as the result of the overall temperature of the color shift being warm. You complain about green hair several times, but again, you're completely ignoring color constancy, which allows the human brain to automatically compensate and correctly interpret the intended local color.

How many people do you honestly think were distracted when they were watching the original version of the series because they actually thought a character's hair color looked green?

Based on the more-or-less uniform shift in the color range of the original version, Hyuga's hair fits into the color range just fine. And while the shadow side of Misato's hair may suffer from the tint in this shot, it's not the type of thing that is distracting unless you're comparing screenshots, staring at a screenshot, etc. This is for three reasons:
  1. Generally speaking, in art and in life, there's usually more leeway with color shifts in the shadow side of objects. They can (and will) get muddied up or tinted without significantly compromising color constancy.
  2. The general color shift of the color range as a whole is relatively consistent (i.e. the tint is largely uniform in color), and thus the color range is not made incongruous.
  3. The general color of the tint is not one that results in an unusual color range (such as color ranges in the Blu-ray).

To expand on that third point, we normally don't see color ranges like the Blu-ray shot in the real world unless we're wearing sunglasses. The Blu-ray colors aren't terrible in this shot, but my point is that the color range in the original shot is more natural looking, despite it also have shortcomings. Also notice how the line art in the shadow side of Misato's hair is so dark in the Blu-ray that it's almost completely lost (particularly at the crown of her head). The color range also appears to be somewhat incongruous: notice how the color of Misato's shirt seems to be clashing with the surrounding colors.

And since you're exaggerating colors and going out of your way to pretend as if color constancy doesn't exist, why aren't you complaining about Ritsuko's hair looking “green” in the Blu-ray shot you posted of the Eva graveyard? Or how “green” the bones of the Eva are in that Blu-ray shot?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Third picture is a complete green mess, subtle nuances of colors in the hardware are lost

The majority of the surfaces in view (the walls and the floor) have a green local color, so the majority of the shot is supposed to be green. Otherwise, I think what you are seeing in the original shot is an intentionally cool color range (which was later reversed for the Blu-ray/Renewal shot) combined with the unintentional warm tint. If this is true, it would mean that for the most part, the difference in color between the two shots is a deliberate artistic change. An intentionally cool palette would also explain the less distinct local colors of the equipment behind it.

But as far as I'm concerned, this is an instance where the colors in the Blu-ray and original are simply different without one example necessarily being better than the other. Yes, one could argue that the cool colors in the original shot are overbearing or that they don't mix well with the unintentional warm tint. But color is hugely important in defining mood, and one could also argue that the more prevalent cool colors in the original shot create a more affecting mood. And because the unintentional warm tint is more-or-less constant and consistent throughout the series, the viewer's eyes would be well adjusted to it and they would be noticing the shift to cool colors—not the already-established warm tint. Color is relative.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Forth picture, same issues

The original shot may not be flawless, but the Blu-ray shot looks too brown by comparison, which ends up making the foliage not look green enough. I suspect the colors in each version are more-or-less equally inaccurate, but to me the colors in the original shot are a little more fitting. The colors in the Blu-ray shot look more like a color palette we would expect to see in a desert environment.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:fifth picture, Asuka's hair may look better on archival, but her plugsuit looks almost orange due to the excessive yellow cast that makes even her seat looks off.

Relatively speaking, her suit in the original shot is clearly red. Our brains interpret it that way due to color constancy (and if you're talking about the pieces on her breasts, those are supposed to be orange). The more-or-less uniform shift in color combined with color constancy also ensures that the color of the seat fits into the color range of the shot. It looks fine.

And describing the tint as simply “yellow” is probably inaccurate, even if it has yellow in it. What we can say about it with certainty is that it's warm. And describing the tint as “excessive” is an exaggeration. An excessive tint would be distracting during a typical viewing, and I seriously doubt the average viewer is going to be distracted by it—and that's if they even notice it at all.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Sixth picture doesn't even need commentary

No, actually it does. The most important difference is that the diagonal gradient which was clearly an intentional artistic choice in the original shot is almost entirely gone in the Blu-ray shot. I don't think that makes the Blu-ray colors better in that shot. It just makes them different.

In the end, the most important thing about the colors is which palette works better, and here I'm indifferent. Although the more obvious gradient in the original shot could be creating a slightly stronger sense that the figures are drifting (but to conclusively say this, I would have to compare video, not screenshots).

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:last picture, dark mushy poor contrast, yellow~reddish cast on the background white, again some poor shadow color balance makes Misato's hair darker shade looks green.

The background in the BD is better for the most part, but notice the strange pink tint in the upper left corner (as well as the unusual green and purple contrast in the curtain over on the right side). As for the foreground in the Blu-ray, it suffers from the usual blue tint, and is unnaturally garish: the light side of Misato's hair is either too dark or too saturated, and the color of her shirt is so vibrant it almost hurts to look at it. And once again, notice how the line art is completely obliterated in the shadow side of Misato's hair. The slice of food in the lower right corner also loses three-dimensionality because of excessive darks obliterating one side of it.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:Not to mention the awful loss of detail

Obviously a Blu-ray is going to have higher resolution than a DVD. And resolution is completely irrelevant when comparing color anyway.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:First shot may have a different painting for Gendou's hair but we can see how ridiculously green the whole picture is

No, it's not just Gendo's hair that was repainted—most of the entire shot was redrawn and repainted. Notice the subtle difference in the texture on the stairs, the folds on Gendo's jacket, his skin, Fuyutsuki's boots, the staircase rails, etc. Comparing shots that were redrawn and repainted hardly qualifies as a typical example of how the overall colors of the series are different. But yes, in this rare exception, the BD colors probably look better, although the color range is somewhat incongruous (the red in the background almost looks like it belongs to a different color range). As for the original shot being “ridiculously green,” don't forget that the walls and clothing are supposed to be green.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:This image is nice to reflect how awful the resolution of the DVD is and how much less detail it has

Again, stating that a Blu-ray has higher resolution than a DVD is stating the obvious, and it's irrelevant in a discussion about color.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:and of course, the overall much more resolution on the BD always put a nail on the coffin of any DVD version when the colors are not really that worse anyway.

Again, it's obvious that BDs have higher resolution than DVDs. Everyone knows that. You're belaboring an irrelevant point. The fact that you've been so incessant about resolution difference in a discussion about color only leads me to believe that you don't think your actual color argument is strong enough to stand on its own.

And aside from showing that there is a color difference, that's the only real conclusive thing about your screenshot comparison: it shows that the Blu-ray release is higher resolution than the Archives DVDs—and that's a completely useless statement to make. Anyone who knows the difference between DVD and Blu-ray could have made that statement without using screenshots.

But even based on the limited selection you've chosen to show, I still think the original version of the series has better colors than the Blu-ray. The only shots that have better color in the Blu-ray are:
  • Rei in the pilot's seat
  • Shinji and Rei in the hallway
  • probably Gendo and Fuyutsuki on the staircase
  • maybe Misato eating (but as noted, it also has significant issues)
Even at best, that's only four out of fourteen shots! And this is out of your hand-picked and limited selection, and assuming you're accurately representing the Archives DVDs and Blu-ray.

The Blu-ray colors in the other shots you've shown are either too dark, too blue, too saturated, are lacking in color, have an incongruous color range that disrupts color constancy...or have some combination of the above. And I find all of that more distracting than the more natural looking colors of the tint in the original version of the series. Now, I would have to actually watch the Blu-ray set to give a definitive opinion on it, but based on what I see, I'm not optimistic about watching it.

Whether or not it's intentional, at least the warm tint in the original version of the series is applied more-or-less uniformly, which allows the color range to remain intact and therefore not disrupt color constancy. And because the shift in temperature isn't too extreme and the color of the tint isn't too unusual, I seriously doubt it's enough to distract most people during a typical viewing. As I've said, the more natural looking colors of the warm tint gives the scenes a more familiar set of colors.

You're also missing the entire point I was making when I posted that image comparing the colors between the Perfect Collection and the anomalous Blu-ray frame, which is that I doubt the colors in the anomalous Blu-ray frame are as raw as you claim.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:overall claiming the light and color of the DVD's being better is... "irresponsible",

Again, you're inventing. I never said anything about the light of the DVD's being better (I'm not even sure what that means). I said the colors look better because they resemble the colors we are used to seeing in the real world (colors created by light). And what's so irresponsible about stating my opinion?

What's irresponsible is that in terms of the original version of the series and the Perfect Collection, you have spread false information all over this thread. It's not just one or two comments, it's everywhere. And aside from misinforming people, that has the potential to dissuade people from seeing the original version of the series, and from watching it with the corrected version of the original English translation.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:and the Perfect collection is much worse than the Archival

If we are talking about the colors of the actual Perfect Collection, then that is an extreme exaggeration. They are very close—much closer than I expected. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Archives DVDs are better in general. The problem is that they aren't very accessible.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:If I wanted someone to have the "most pure nostalgic original 90's feeling" while watching Eva, I'd recommend the Archival, NOT the Perfect collection.

I never said I wanted people to have the “most pure nostalgic original 90's feeling.” But even if I were to say that, my subtitles when combined with the Perfect Collection is the closest thing there is to what people experienced in the '90s, unless you're not referring to native English speaking countries. But again, I wouldn't be surprised if the Archives DVDs have better video quality.

I want to be clear about something though: while these subtitles will surely satisfy the purist and anyone seeking nostalgia, that is not the main purpose of this project. The main purpose is to preserve the best version of the series that I have seen by recreating it digitally—and that requires authenticity.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:I trust that the changes of expression chosen by Anno were what he actually wanted to convey.

Are you talking about Asuka's facial expression specifically? Or Anno's creative expression in general? It doesn't matter which of Asuka's expressions is closer to what he wanted to convey. What matters is which one works better. And I seriously doubt he had the time or resources to micromanage every single line that an animator put down anyway. And as for Anno's creative expression...

What about the continuity-breaking inconsistencies that resulted from the changes that were made, such as Unit 01's eyes in Episode 1, the sound of the lock in Episodes 15 and 24, or the shot of the lance in Episodes 22 and 24? Do you think he intentionally created those inconsistencies? And what about removing the music from the scene in Episode 1 or the animation from Yui's expression in Episode 21? Surely the simple removal of such things would have been easy to do in the original version had that been what he had wanted.

Maybe some of the changes he made for the edited version are things he would have done originally but couldn't, but some are clearly mistakes, and even then, it's not that simple. I think his vision has changed over time—even if he says otherwise (I'm not sure what he says). He shows clear signs of being a perfectionist, for good or ill (it's usually a combination of the two with perfectionism). How do you know the Renewal version is what he would have done if he could, rather than a result of him changing his vision over time?

Remember what Kaji says in Episode 15: “Living means changing.” ;)

And the fact that Anno created an edited version of the series doesn't invalidate the original version that came before it. People should still have a choice over which version they get to enjoy. What exactly are you implying about the original version? That we shouldn't favor it, because the director doesn't favor it? Choosing to favor a particular version just because the creator favors it isn't doing a very good job at exercising free thought, unless of course you're completely indifferent about all of the changes. And just out of curiosity, if you trust that what he wanted is only embodied in the edited version with Renewal changes, then why did you buy the Archives DVDs?

The same thing you said about Anno could easily be applied to George Lucas. Yes, Star Wars has more extreme changes that are received more negatively, I've never stated otherwise. But here are the similarities between the two franchises:
  • The creator made something and released it. Then, years later, he made changes to it and released it again.
  • The version with the new changes is the one that has become commonly available, while the original version has been pushed off to the side.
And even though the Star Wars changes are more extreme, the two similarities that do exist between Lucas and Anno are only made more evident by the Director's Cut of episodes 21–24, as well as Anno's continued efforts to revise Evangelion with the Rebuild series. Obviously Rebuild is a reboot and not an edit, but consider how much of it is an edit. Either way, the point is that the evidence of continually revising one's creative vision is there. Perpetual tinkering along with wanting the most current version to be the one that is the most accessible (original vs. edit with Renewal changes, in the case of Eva), are traits both of them share. They're not traits exclusive to just the two of them (it's the mark of a perfectionist—trust me, I'd know), but they share them.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:You should give him more credit, not treat him like an Idiot like George Lucas.

Now I treat Anno like an idiot? How? Evangelion is an incredible series, and the edited version with Renewal changes is no exception—it's just that I think the original version of the series is even better. Why do you have a problem with that? I don't judge you for liking the edited version better than the original version.

And preference over a work of art has nothing to do with judging an artist's intelligence, it has to do with a difference in artistic taste. Why are you condemning my artistic taste? Repeatedly criticizing me for choosing the original version over the edited version just isn't necessary.

And even if the reason I've been pointing out things that don't make sense about the changes is to make Anno look like an idiot (which it isn't), then why don't you make him look smart and explain the changes that don't make sense, rather than taking it out on me for simply pointing them out?

One thing I'd like to say in closing is that the edited version of the series with Renewal changes is here to stay. You don't have to worry about that. It's the version that is commonly available, and the one most people are probably familiar with. It doesn't need any support, promotion, or attention drawn to it. But the original version of the series is something that is overlooked and underrated, and has already been shoved off to the side, so I don't see what good it does for the Evangelion community when you try to make sure it stays there by making such a misleading and belabored argument against it.

Look at it this way. I'm trying to draw people's attention to something they could be missing, and you're trying to make sure they don't even try it. Let me ask you this: is the community better off discovering something they may or may not like better? Or better off avoiding such a discovery?
Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles
The End of Evangelion: Fansub Amalgamation
Evangelion fan since 1996. Former Eva Mailing List member (late '90s).


Return to “Fandom Area”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest