Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:58 pm

This is a set of subtitles for Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995–1996) based on the original VHS tapes released by ADV Films.
Happy Second Impact Day, and Happy 20th Anniversary to all you hedgehogs out there!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4fNpxiuCvtEbTRPVlkzQlBMa28

So far, there have been three official versions of the series with English subtitles (VHS, Perfect Collection, and Platinum Edition). Each release has featured a slightly different script for the subtitled dialog.

Overwhelmingly, I have found the VHS dialog to be superior. This may shock some of you, given some of the infamously erroneous translations of the VHS tapes—which is why I've taken the liberty to correct them. I've also corrected grammar and spelling, inconsistent terminology, and English idioms. These corrections have also been documented so you know exactly what's different. But please note that aside from these changes, I've made an incredibly meticulous effort in preserving every detail of the VHS subtitles as closely as possible, including the font.

Also included with these subtitles are AVS scripts that will automatically restore most of the shots that ADV edited for episodes 1–4 of the Perfect Collection DVDs. Instructions are included in the download. Some of these restored shots are a work in progress, which I plan to improve on with the next release.

If you catch an error or think of a way to improve my subtitles, let me know! If I make a change based on your help, I will gladly give you credit (as long as you're okay with that).

And if anyone can find fonts that are a closer match to the VHS subtitles than the ones I'm using, please let me know! The fonts I'm using are close, but aren't quite perfect.

Edit: I took some of the release notes and added them here (for more detail, see the documents in the download).
Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:08 pm

This is pretty awesome. The VHS translation was the one I had more contact with after the Portuguese DUBs since I bought some (probably bootleg) VCDs back in 2000 that were scanned from the VHS and watched them a lot before the 2003 renewal was out.

I even added some background lines from those subs into the ADV subs I used for my "personal project".
It's I shame I completely missed your post, otherwise I may have even tried to incorporate it on my "release".

Thanks for this.

Also, check this out, Mjolnir:
thread/18332/The-newest-most-accurate-EoE-subs-to-date-are-out/

(Btw, I Marathon is probably one of my favorite Sci-fi games history-wise of all time.)
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:08 am

You're welcome! Glad you like it. I hope other people give these subs a try. There is some terrific dialog in the VHS subs that fans seem to be completely unaware of.

Thanks for posting too, hopefully it will help these subtitles get noticed. Nothing would make me happier than to know that more people are watching the best version of the original series.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby FallenTabris » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:45 am

Appreciating this!

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:07 pm

Cool! And thanks for posting, too!
Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:34 pm

It would be nice to make some direct SS comparisons of your subs side to side with the Renewal era ADV's translation for some iconic more fluid differences for people that never watched those subs to get an idea of what they are going into.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:25 pm

That's a good idea! I'll try to squeeze this in at some point. But wouldn't it be even better with a triple screenshot comparison? After all, there are three scripts: VHS, Perfect Collection, and Platinum Edition. And while the biggest difference is between VHS and Platinum, some people may have only seen the Perfect Collection.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:09 am

A comparison page on the wiki would be a nice feature if someone wanted to put it together. Three columns for the subs plus another for notes.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:39 am

I've been watching these for the nostalgia. Your work was pretty awesome, must have taken ages, you really did put a lot of work into this, but nevertheless I still must give some suggestions:

1) You most definitely should do a Blu Ray synced version as the DVD renewal version nowadays is pretty obsolete for most people. Most episodes just need around -500ms delay adjustment, but that is not constant, some episodes have a longer middle title card, needing further adjustments for the second half. (PS: 2d4u version has not correct timings in a couple of episodes, I suggest you use either the original BD's or my version for retiming the subs)

2) Also, the signs overlays for episode 14, 25 and 26 must manually be resynced to be 1-frame accurate. Some shots are 8 frames late, others as much as 15. I had similar problem when working on my release having to fine sync half a dozen of different languages subs for the BD timing on those episodes.
But unfortunately, without these corrections I think many people would not want to watch these subs as they will hardly have an older SD raw/soft-subbed version of Eva laying around in they hard drive that sync with these subs properly, and the desync with the BD is too much for an enjoyable experience.

3) A scene-change adjusted sync would be nice, but is not mandatory, if you are going also for the feeling of oldschool subs (with the yellow styling and squarish font), I suppose that is not needed.

4) I would also suggest spliting the triple lines. That is going too far just for "Nostalgia sake". Triple lines are a real eyesore. For the VHS version they made sense as the low resolution and big overscan needed some big-ass subtitles that simply wouldn't fit in two lines, not much point in keeping them just for nostalgia sake, but for a restoration that is going too far. And well, since you already have 3 versions, if anyone REALLY is this purist about nostalgia, they can always opt for the old 640x480 subs synced with the DVDs. For a new BD-Synced version, I'd suggest fixing that.

5) It would also be nice doing a DC version of the subs, adding just the missing lines from the Platinum-ADV subs. I also imagine most people don't have the OA version of Eva around.

6) And just for the heck of it, a third and final suggestion: Adding some missing typesetted signs would be nice. Some important ones are missing (notably from episode 6) You could copy and paste easily them from the 2D4U's subs, (just look for the "BG, blacksigns whitesigns, etc" styles. My TS is better, too bad it's in Portuguese!)

I'd offer to help you, but I've been pretty busy this two weeks I have to finish working on the Episode 16 Restoration project together with pwsweet.

As a curiosity, I have also been rewatching Eva dubbed in my own language, and realized as I watched these VHS subs, that the original pre-renewal DUB in PT-BR was actually made based on precisely these scripts. I noticed over a dozen of instances of over-liberal inaccurate lines that are exactly the same in Portuguese. Jesus, we have the largest Japanese colony outside of Asia and the lazy asses back in the 90's didn't even bothered hiring a proper Japanese translator for the series and went for a translation of a translation. Talk about an amateur job...
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:46 am

I just want to clarify that my subtitles are designed for use specifically with the Perfect Collection (it also says this in the release notes included in the download). If you use any other release of the series, don't expect the timing to be accurate. But if you are using the Perfect Collection and notice the timing is off somewhere, please let me know. That should not happen.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:1) You most definitely should do a Blu Ray synced version

I appreciate your interest in this, but until the original series is released on Blu-ray, I have little interest in re-timing the subtitles. Even though the Renewal version of the series has higher quality video, there are color problems (everything is tinted blue). But more importantly, there are animation, music, and sound effect changes that I think weaken the impact of key moments in the story. It's similar, but not nearly as excessive, to the changes made in the Special Edition version of the Star Wars trilogy. To me, a better story is more important than the quality level of the video.

Choosing the Perfect Collection as the base for my project also makes sense given that in terms of widespread digital release outside of Japan, it's the closest thing there is to the original series. The VHS tapes are the only thing closer, but they obviously aren't a practical option—and they're deteriorating.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:2) Also, the signs overlays for episode 14, 25 and 26 must manually be resynced to be 1-frame accurate. Some shots are 8 frames late, others as much as 15.

You mean the overlays I made with white text and black backgrounds? I timed those precisely to the Perfect Collection, right down to the very frame. Which release of the series are you using?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:I think many people would not want to watch these subs as they will hardly have an older SD raw/soft-subbed version of Eva laying around in they hard drive that sync with these subs properly

The same is also true with the original Star Wars trilogy, but that doesn’t mean people shouldn't hunt it down. That's one thing I hope this project encourages people to do with Evangelion, especially those who have only seen the Renewal version of the series: give the Perfect Collection a try with these subtitles. Hunt it down. In my opinion, it's worth it for the best story experience. And I've included step-by-step instructions in the download that explain how to get the episodes onto your hard drive and working with these subtitles. If you can't afford the Perfect Collection on eBay or Amazon, get it on Netflix, or from your local library. Public libraries have a surprisingly wide selection of DVDs.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:3) A scene-change adjusted sync would be nice, but is not mandatory

Do you mean shift the timing of the subtitles for each scene in order for them to match up with the Renewal version of the series?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:4) I would also suggest spliting the triple lines. That is going too far just for "Nostalgia sake".

I kept triple lines intact for a number of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with nostalgia:

SPOILER: Show
1) Authenticity
It's an important part of this project, and I take pride in it. One of the objectives is to only make a change in order to correct a mistake. The more I change, the more I put my own signature on it, and I'm not interested in doing that. I want to stay out of the way as much as possible and let the work that was done by ADV show through.

2) Reception
As soon as I start making changes other than correcting mistakes, the project becomes a slippery slope, where some people might like the change, and others might not.

3) Utility
I'm less concerned with how good the lines look, and more concerned with how well they function. There was a time when I shared your opinion of triple lines. But triple lines are closer to the center of the frame and change less frequently, and I am of the belief that this allows the viewer to be more effective at watching the animation and reading the subtitles at the same time.

In greater detail:
    With triple lines, the viewer doesn't have to divert the center of his gaze as far away from the center of the frame. Along the y-axis, triple lines are closer to the center of the frame by one line of course, but they can also be a little closer along the x-axis, because more lines sometimes means a narrower width for each line. And since there's more text shown at once, subtitles also sometimes change less frequently, which means the center of the viewer's field of view is diverted away from the center of the frame less frequently.

    Even though smaller text at the bottom of the screen is ideal for freeing up the viewing space of the frame (and covers less of the frame's center), it requires the viewer to divert his eyes further away from the center of the frame and, if the subtitles aren't scaled down enough, to divert them more frequently as well (because smaller text allows for more text). While reading subtitles, the further away from the center of the frame the subtitles are, the more the center of the frame is lost in the viewer's less perceptive peripheral vision (fact: most of our field of view is peripheral vision). Of what you're trying to watch, the amount that gets lost in your peripheral vision while you're reading subtitles is probably especially high with something like Evangelion, where there is pretty much constant talking, which means your eyes are pretty much constantly going back and forth between the subtitles and the center of the frame.

    Also, I have a theory that the less often subtitles change, the quicker the viewer is able to read them.

I'm not necessarily saying triple lines are superior, but likewise I wouldn't say smaller double-lines are superior. You lose something either way. Now with gigantic screens, text that is too large becomes difficult to read, but I personally have only had that problem sitting near the front row in movie theaters.

Also, these old lines are tried and true. I've seen the entire series on VHS more than ten times, enjoyed it thoroughly each time, and I don't want to mess with that formula for success if I don't have to.

4) Limitation
Another thing “not making changes unless there's a mistake” does is impose a limitation on an already massive project, which keeps it from spiraling out of control in terms of the amount of time it requires. And I hope nobody confuses this concept with being too lazy to fix something. Whatever your favorite work of art is, literary or visual, there was a limitation imposed on it that allowed it to even exist at all in the first place.

5) Simplicity
Adding an alternate version of the subtitles with triple lines reduced to double lines would make an already complex project perhaps more bloated and confusing than it needs to be (also consider how this complicates the documentation of corrections). If someone out there wants to edit my project, they have my permission to do so as long as they make it very clear which parts they have edited, and kindly give me credit for creating the original subtitle files. But if anyone does plan on doing this, you should know that I'm currently working on a second release, so you may want to consider holding out until it's completed.

6) Preservation
If people can't look here to duplicate the experience of the VHS tapes digitally, where can they look?

All that having been said, I sincerely appreciate suggestions, and I'll always consider what anyone has to say. I hope you understand that I'm not just shooting down your idea, I'm only explaining the logic behind the choice I made for this project (I know that's a lot just to explain a choice about triple lines, but other aspects of this project were governed by the same logic). I've put thought into this project and its purpose, and those are my reasons, but just because I've thought about something doesn't mean someone can't think of a better approach, so I hope my response doesn’t dissuade you or anyone else from making future suggestions.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:And well, since you already have 3 versions, if anyone REALLY is this purist about nostalgia, they can always opt for the old 640x480 subs synced with the DVDs.

Right, but keep in mind that the variations I created don't differ in aesthetics. They are strictly utilitarian in variance. They exist solely to suit the needs of the user in terms of how much time he is willing to devote to video processing, what hardware/software he will be using to watch the episodes, and which DVDs he has available.


View Original Postsephirotic wrote:5) It would also be nice doing a DC version of the subs

I've been working on something for the DC episodes for quite some time now. ;)

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:I also imagine most people don't have the OA version of Eva around.

By OA, I assume you mean non-DC. What western release only includes the DC versions of the episodes?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:6) And just for the heck of it, a third and final suggestion: Adding some missing typesetted signs would be nice. Some important ones are missing (notably from episode 6)

When used with the Perfect Collection, all of those missing ones you're talking about should be there. The Perfect Collection has them permanently embedded into the video, so there is no reason to put them in a second time as a redundant overlay.

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:My TS is better, too bad it's in Portuguese!

By TS, I assume you mean timestamps?

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:As a curiosity, I had also been rewatching Eva dubbed in my own language, and realized as I watched these VHS subs, that the original pre-renewal DUB in PT-BR was actually made based on precisely these scripts. I noticed over a dozen of instances of over-liberal inaccurate lines that are exactly the same in Portuguese.

Can you give any examples of over-liberal inaccurate lines?

Regardless, that's a real shame they didn't translate directly from Japanese to Portuguese. I've also heard that there are technical video choices made for the Perfect Collection that are incompetent.

Thanks for the suggestions!
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:40 am

Ow, I did read that you made those subs for the Perfect Collection, but I didn't think you would go to such extremes as completely dismissing the Blu rays altogether.

All my suggestions after the entry number one (excluding number 4) are regarding to the processes for a possible resync version with the blu ray. They do not apply to the subs synced to the Perfect Collection. Since you started you project before the BD was released, I thought you could consider do a new resync version for the BD, but since you have now stated that you don't, you can disregard all the rest of the comment.

I must say, however, that I personally don't believe many people on the west (many as a significant big % of the fanbase), even if you exclude ESl's from other countries, watch Eva in the old Perfect Collection format. Specially not the ever increasing newer fans (post 2005). That is a niche of a niche. I could of course be wrong.

I appreciate your interest in this, but until the original series is released on Blu-ray, I have little interest in re-timing the subtitles. Even though the Renewal version of the series has higher quality video, there are color problems (everything is tinted blue).

Wait, what do you mean "original series". You do realize that the Renewal was captured from the exact same film stock than the previous DVD versions, they just captured on a newer machine and in progressive, right? The variations in colors are due to the machine capture process and the further digital color grading they did for Renewal and the the Blu ray. There is just a single film stock for most episodes. (with the exception of maybe episodes 1, and 19 which I believe received new film prints after receiving animation fixes. Episode 16 also had a couple of changed patterns on Leliel, but since the film stock was "lost" and no other high resolution scan ocurred, I believe only a single film stock exister. All other episodes have a single unique 16mm film stock master). There is no such thing as "16mm film of the "original" separated from the Renewal! The blu ray we have *IS* from the original! There will never be a capture with the "original airing color".

But more importantly, there are animation, music, and sound effect changes that I think weaken the impact of key moments in the story.

Again this is incorrect. The blu ray came with two audio tracks, the original stereo is exactly identical with the archival, even with the low quality loss in bright, and the new mix. You can simply switch the audio track to the older stereo mix if you prefer. I sometimes do! There is almost no music changes, most notable changes are in the DC, episode 1 and episode 19. All other episodes are pretty much identical and for the DC you still have the OA version which is from the very first original film stocks from the airing back in 1996! The animation corrections outside of the DC (which have the old OA version with the originals) are MINUSCULE, https://sephirotic.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/animation-fixes.jpg that is the most of corrections you get for episode 19. Episode 01 has the biggest change which is the eyes of unit 01 turning off and on on different moments. As far as I know, no other episode had animation fixes. Even the wrong finger colors from Unit 02 running on episode 12 remained the same! You can't compare that to the Star Wars remaster!

I too think the color issues of the Renewal (and the blu ray) are inferior, in some extent, to older captures of Eva. I have made an extensive analysis of the color issues of the renewal and Blu ray in an article on the wordpress. https://sephirotic.wordpress.com/2015/1 ... pisode-19/ (please excuse the English) On the comment sections I also further comment about the DC's color issues that I also corrected and that dark blue tint issue. Notably there are blue tint on the shadows and some crushed blacks, but that tint does not extend to other medium tones and highlights. That being said, the Perfect collection DVD is considerably inferior to the new archival DVDs, it has the best color and luminance to all pre-renewal releases so far, this is why me and Pwsweet have chosen the archival instead of the Perfect collection for our episode 16 restauration project, Bitrate, detail, luminance colors are all better than the Perfect Collection. I was also working on restoring episode 19 and compared a lot with the Archival and Perfect collection DVD and I must point out that even if the colors of the Archival looks more "neutral", the old analog NTSC is simply too much limited, also, the Archival suffers from bad white balance, most of the time the colors have an evenly yellowish cast that EXTENDS ON ALL LEVELS OF LUMINANCE! Be it highlights or shadows! Sometimes it even shifts to green! This is actually worse than the dark blue tint, although easier to be fixed. All DVD releases also suffer from horrible haloing around the edges, even the renewal version. The Archival (Again, the perfect Collection is inferior to the archival) works as a "reference" but it's clearly mushed and with a compressed latitude and more inconsistent quality overall. The gain in resolution, no yellow tint and the lack of the HORRID telecine ghostings are more than good enough reason to go for the blu ray, and I corrected most of the bad colors for myself to diminish the only kind of an advantage the Archival (and Perfect collection) had compared to the blu ray and renewal. Only some of the dark crushed blues that should have been grey actually remained, everything in the mid and highlight tones are better than the DVD versions at least for episodes 1,2,19, 21-24.
Anyway, I'm extending too much. When it comes to color inconsistencies, no one has gone deeper and spent more time comparing, analyzing and actually fixing the problems than myself, so I may have rambled too much there.

Anyway, by reading your response it is clear that we have too much discrepancies in views and philosophy, I won't even comment on the matter of triple lines which I disagree entirely. This is your project and I shouldn't butt myself in. Excellent job, even if it's a shame that you won't do a BD version.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:19 am

I think it's important for people to know about the significant changes that were made to the Renewal/Platinum version of the series, because chances are, most people have the Renewal version whether they realize it or not. These changes affect the impact of key moments in the story, and sometimes even create new inconsistencies that were never present in the first place.

This is my attempt to illustrate what you are missing out on if you don't have the original version of the series, or haven't compared it to Renewal. I recommend everyone compare any one of the releases of the original version to any one of the releases of the Renewal version to see for yourself. But you can't just compare the shots side-by-side. You really have to watch the entire scene too, in order to provide the right context and really compare the changes. I'd like to hear what other people think about these differences:

SPOILER: Show
1) Shinji Refuses to Pilot Unit 01
Episode 1
The situation with Shinji being forced to pilot Unit 01 escalates, and Ritsuko and Misato step in to try and persuade him. But Shinji is convinced he doesn't have what it takes. In the original version, there is music that punctuates the emotion of the scene and definitely makes it more dramatic (the music ends at the point when it becomes clear that Shinji is irreconcilable and Gendo calls for Rei). The music in this part of the scene was completely removed from the Renewal version, and the scene loses a lot of emotion because of it.

2) Rei Smiles
Episode 6
Shinji open's Rei's entry plug by hand, discovers she's still alive, and begins to cry. Rei says, “I’m sorry. I don’t know what I should do or feel at a time like this.”
Shinji says, “Why don't you try smiling?”
And Rei smiles. It's arguably one of the most touching moments in the series, and the music is an important part of it. The music is timed to Rei’s smile better in the original version, and makes the moment even more beautiful.

3) Power of the Lance
Episode 22
Unit 00 hurls the Lance of Longinus into outer space, killing the Angel in one blow. The scene is accompanied by dramatic sound effects, and escalating choral music which is hushed to silence the moment before the Lance strikes the Angel. It's easily one of the most exciting scenes in the series. In the original version, we see the last twinkle of the Angel's existence vanish into nothing, and suddenly the only sound we are left with is the hollow, empty echo of its destruction. In the Renewal version, instead we hear the sounds of Second Impact, and the Angel never fully disappears. The original version makes the Lance seem more powerful by making it more apparent that the Angel was not just destroyed, but blinked completely out of existence. And that in turn increases the dramatic impact of the scene and makes it more impressive. In the Renewal version, it sounds like maybe part of the Angel is still alive, maybe slowly dying. The idea was probably to make a connection to Second Impact, which is another event in which the Lance interacted with an Angel. It's not a bad idea, but it's the execution that is lacking. The way it's done softens the impact that the death blow originally had. In the original version, it's even clearer that nope, that thing isn't just going...it is GONE. The way the sound of the Angel's death fades to silence in the original also does a better job at contrasting with the sounds that come before and after it in both versions: the clamor of music and sounds that precede it, and the bustling sounds of NERV Headquarters that follow it, along with the curt report, “Target destroyed.”

4) Heaven's Door Opens
Episode 24
Kaoru opens Heaven’s Door just by looking at it, and Terminal Dogma, the place upon which the fate of mankind rests, is suddenly defenseless. The importance of this moment cannot be understated. It is the moment that marks the beginning of the scene's climax, a scene that is the climax of the episode, but more importantly, the climax of the entire TV series. The sound effect the electronic lock makes when it's opened was changed in the Renewal version. The problem with this is that they didn't bother to change the sound of the lock at the end of Episode 15, when we hear what is likely the same door being unlocked (and if it isn't the same door, it is clearly the same make). And creating inconsistency isn't the only consequence of changing that sound. In the original Episode 24, the pitch and duration of the beep is more harmonious with the music, and has a more dramatic impact (remember that the music too has just built up to a dramatic point just before falling silent and going into its climax). In the Renewal version, the beep is a shorter, anticlimactic discord that fails to punctuate the music and complement it as effectively.

5) Unit 01's Eyes
Episode 1
Unit 01 breaks free of its arm restraints, moving without power to protect Shinji from a falling light fixture. In the original version, the lights in Unit 01's eyes never turn off. But in the Renewal version, its eyes turn off when the order is given to reconfigure it for Rei and reactivate it. There's nothing too out of place with that, but it's how the eyes turn back on that makes no sense. It seems random because there is no apparent cause. There's no audio cue or communication to tell us what's going on, and there should be. There was communication acknowledging the order given to reconfigure Unit 01, there was even communication chatter when Unit 01 moved with no power, but there is no communication to confirm that it's been reconfigured, or reactivated, etc. And then there's the sound effect inconsistency: there's no sound effect for when the eyes turn back on, which is out of place considering they went through the trouble of adding a sound effect for when the eyes turn off. All that this Renewal change does is raise questions, when the scene worked fine before the change. In fact, it was airtight. There's no other point in the series when a docked Eva is on-screen when the order is given to reconfigure it, so there's no reason for us to conclude that the eyes would turn off when that happens. (Note that while Unit 01's eyes do turn off in Episode 19, that's because it's refusing the dummy plug.)

6) Color Palette
All Episodes
Colors are tinted blue in the Renewal version, and darkened. To me, this change alone might even outweigh the loss of quality you get by watching the Perfect Collection (in other words, I might rather have a moderate loss in picture quality than a severe loss in color).

And here are other changes that I think are less important, but are still worth mentioning simply to demonstrate the difference between the original and Renewal:

7) The Lance in Zero-G
Episode 22
After the scene back at NERV after the Angel is destroyed, there is a shot of the Lance drifting through outer space. In the Renewal version, the animation has been changed, and the Lance is shown flipping end over end rather than drifting in a stationary position. The newer animation looks great, but the problem is that, once again, the corresponding episode that is affected wasn't changed to match it. It breaks continuity with Episode 24, when the Lance is shown drifting in a stationary position rather than flipping end over end. That kind of thing doesn’t happen in outer space where there's no drag. If it starts flipping, it stays flipping. And this begs the question: how did it start flipping in the first place? It shot through the Angel like a bullet.

8) Eva Series Intel
Episode 22
The time of day in the scene where Hyuga gives Misato intel about the Eva series production is changed from dusk (original) to night (Renewal). I'm mostly indifferent about this change, but it makes a little more sense that in order to draw less attention to themselves, Misato and Hyuga wouldn't be meeting up at night out in the open. Out in the open at dusk, and it's easier to imagine that any potential witnesses would probably just assume they're taking a break at the same time, or having a work-related or friendly chat after work. At night, it raises questions of conspiracy: what are these two doing together at this hour? I realize there can be late work nights, but it's a question of which version of the scene raises less questions.

9) Gendo's Voice
Episode 1
Shinji is reunited with his father for the first time in years, only to be told to either pilot Unit 01 or leave. In the original version, Gendo's voice echoes with booming authority, which is fitting given the history between Shinji and Gendo, and Gendo's position at NERV. But in the Renewal version, it sounds like his voice is coming out of a cheap radio. I realize the idea in the Renewal version is that they're using communication equipment. Even if you think the scene is less believable in the original version, ask yourself this: which version does a better job at delivering the emotion of the scene? Make sure to watch the whole scene, because it's not just one line. And appropriately, the echo effect is only noticeable when the camera is further away from Gendo, and is used consistently with other characters' voices as well to convey the acoustics of the space. While I prefer the original for the emotion of the scene, objectively I will admit that the Renewal change makes more sense.

10) Fuyutsuki's Reaction to the Lance
Episode 22
After the Lance destroys the Angel, and Fuyutsuki asks, “What about the Lance of Longinus?”, he looks more calm in the original, while he looks more tense in the Renewal version. Moments later when he replies, “It’s impossible to recover now,” he relaxes and seems to accept the situation in the original, whereas he remains tense in the Renewal version. I'm completely indifferent about this change.


sephirotic wrote:You can't compare that to the Star Wars remaster!

There's a good reason I said, “It's similar, but not nearly as excessive.” I chose my words carefully. Using an extreme example to quickly illustrate the point of something more subtle is a common communication shortcut and well within reason, especially when I openly acknowledge the severe difference between the two things being compared. The similarities between the two are that in each case, the currently distributed version underwent changes that make it different from the original version, and that the original version is no longer nearly as accessible as the changed version. What other films or TV series share those similarities? Evangelion and Star Wars are the only two I can think of, so that's the reason for the comparison. It's also a good comparison because Star Wars is so well known. If there is a closer comparison to some other film or TV series, chances are not as many people would get the reference. You got it, so I consider the analogy a success in that regard, it's just that you missed a few important words and misinterpreted what I was saying as “it's just as bad as what they did to Star Wars.” That would be an unfair comparison. I consider the worst changes made to Star Wars ghastly, whereas I consider the worst changes made to Renewal disappointing.

sephirotic wrote:Wait, what do you mean "original series".

I mean the series as it was before it was changed for the Renewal version. The Second Impact Box is the best example I know of.

Mjolnir Mark IV wrote:But more importantly, there are animation, music, and sound effect changes that I think weaken the impact of key moments in the story.

    sephirotic wrote:Again this is incorrect.
    sephirotic wrote:There is almost no music changes, most notable changes are in the DC, episode 1 and episode 19.
    sephirotic wrote:The animation corrections outside of the DC (which have the old OA version with the originals) are MINUSCULE
    sephirotic wrote:Episode 01 has the biggest change
You're contradicting yourself here. You accuse me of being incorrect when I say there are changes, but then you start listing some of the changes! Although I would say it's more like you are understating the changes (see below).

sephirotic wrote:There is almost no music changes, most notable changes are in the DC, episode 1 and episode 19.

You place emphasis on the quantity of changes, but quantity is not nearly as important as the magnitude of any one change. The same is true for a change in animation or sound effects. A thousand changes you never notice are not nearly as important as one change that sticks out like a sore thumb.

sephirotic wrote:The animation corrections outside of the DC (which have the old OA version with the originals) are MINUSCULE

Interpreting you literally, I would agree. Not much was corrected. But there are things that were changed, and some things that were even broken. I think you meant “changes,” not “corrections,” and to that I would argue that while some of the animation changes are minuscule, such as the ones you pointed out for Episode 19, there are others that are vastly more significant, such as the ones I described above.

sephirotic wrote:Episode 01 has the biggest change which is the eyes of unit 01 turning off and on on different moments. As far as I know, no other episode had animation fixes.

There are indeed other episodes that underwent animation changes (see above). And the change made to Unit 01's eyes are not a “fix.” Quite the opposite, actually. But then again, “if it ain't broke, don't fix it.” So I guess in that sense, they did “fix” it.

And as for the changes I mentioned above, those are just the changes that jumped out at me years ago after only watching my favorite parts. Who knows how many I'd find if I actually watched all of Renewal and did a side-by-side comparison with the original series.

sephirotic wrote:Even the wrong finger colors from Unit 02 running on episode 12 remained the same!

I never noticed that, but trying to fix things that aren't broken (like most of the changes I mentioned) and failing to fix details that are actually mistakes (like the one you just mentioned) doesn't do them any credit. And it only gets worse of course when they add in new mistakes that were never there in the first place.

sephirotic wrote:There is no such thing as "16mm film of the "original" separated from the Renewal!

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, or what you think I'm saying. Years after the original series was released, changes were made to the series, and it was released as the Renewal version. Those changes (some of which I mentioned above) are what separate the original from the Renewal version.

sephirotic wrote:The blu ray we have *IS* from the original!

I would expect nothing less, but the problem is what they did to it afterwards. It's clear that the Blu-rays contain Renewal changes (or at the very least, changes made to mimic Renewal).

sephirotic wrote:The blu ray came with two audio tracks, the original stereo is exactly identical with the archival, even with the low quality loss in bright, and the new mix. You can simply switch the audio track to the older stereo mix if you prefer. I sometimes do!

Well that's a surprise! So that means it's possible to watch the series without hearing any of the Renewal changes I listed above, correct? What about video? Is there any HD capture of the original video before Renewal changes where made to it?

sephirotic wrote:the Perfect collection DVD is considerably inferior to the new archival DVDs

I heard about the Archives DVDs but haven't seen them yet. I figured I would catch up on the most recent Eva releases when I have more time for my project. Thank you for bringing that to my attention! Do they include the stills from the sponsors' commercials? That's one thing about the OA I'm not enthusiastic about. It sounds like something that would be distracting and interrupt the flow of an episode.

sephirotic wrote:it has the best color and luminance to all pre-renewal releases so far

Including the Second Impact Box? Have you compared it to that?

sephirotic wrote:There will never be a capture with the "original airing color".

The point is that I value the release that is the closest match, and the colors in the Perfect Collection are a much closer match than Renewal. And while The Second Impact Box is superior to the Perfect Collection, it just isn't accessible enough (it wasn't released outside of Japan and is super expensive).

sephirotic wrote:All my suggestions after the entry number one (excluding number 4) are regarding to the processes for a possible resync version with the blu ray. They do not apply to the subs synced to the Perfect Collection.

In that case, those suggestions make much more sense! If I were to do a Blu-ray release, numbers 1, 2, and 6 are all changes I would make even if you hadn't suggested anything. Number 3 I still don't understand (but that's okay if you don't want to explain it).

sephirotic wrote:I must say, however, that I personally don't believe many people on the west (many as a significant big % of the fanbase), even if you exclude ESl's from other countries, watch Eva in the old Perfect Collection format. Specially not the ever increasing newer fans (post 2005).

I agree. But I'm not trying to make something that will appeal to as many people as possible. I'm trying to make something the best that it can be. There's a difference. I want to do it right, even if that means most people don't get it. I think the main problem is that the originals aren't in wide circulation, and that people place too much importance on HD and not enough on authenticity or what works best for the story. But I also think most people either aren't even aware of the changes I've highlighted, or haven't actually thoroughly compared them (or given them much thought).

sephirotic wrote:I may have rambled too much there.

No, much of your technical information is relevant to my project and I appreciate it! I'm interested in seeing the most authentic version I can get, both as a fan, and for use with my project.

sephirotic wrote:This is your project and I shouldn't butt myself in.

But I'm glad you did! I'd much rather have people say something that has a chance of being insightful or helpful than not say anything at all. And this is a forum after all. If you have something to say, it doesn't matter how helpful it ends up being, butt in! This should be a place where we talk when we have something to say. I even consider non-constructive criticism helpful, as it at least calls my attention to something that could potentially be improved.

sephirotic wrote:Excellent job, even if it's a shame that you won't do a BD version.

Thank you!
Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles
The End of Evangelion: Fansub Amalgamation
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:56 am

sephirotic, shouldn't your "fixes" for episode 19 include the final shot (Gendo corrected to still be covered in 01's blood)?

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:46 pm

View Original PostMjolnir Mark IV wrote:This is my attempt to illustrate what you are missing out on if you don't have the original version of the series, or haven't compared it to Renewal. I recommend everyone compare any one of the releases of the original version to any one of the releases of the Renewal version to see for yourself. But you can't just compare the shots side-by-side. You really have to watch the entire scene too, in order to provide the right context and really compare the changes. I'd like to hear what other people think about these differences:

SPOILER: Show
1) Shinji Refuses to Pilot Unit 01
Episode 1
The situation with Shinji being forced to pilot Unit 01 escalates, and Ritsuko and Misato step in to try and persuade him. But Shinji is convinced he doesn't have what it takes. In the original version, there is music that punctuates the emotion of the scene and definitely makes it more dramatic (the music ends at the point when it becomes clear that Shinji is irreconcilable and Gendo calls for Rei). The music in this part of the scene was completely removed from the Renewal version, and the scene loses a lot of emotion because of it.

2) Rei Smiles
Episode 6
Shinji open's Rei's entry plug by hand, discovers she's still alive, and begins to cry. Rei says, “I’m sorry. I don’t know what I should do or feel at a time like this.”
Shinji says, “Why don't you try smiling?”
And Rei smiles. It's arguably one of the most touching moments in the series, and the music is an important part of it. The music is timed to Rei’s smile better in the original version, and makes the moment even more beautiful.

3) Power of the Lance
Episode 22
Unit 00 hurls the Lance of Longinus into outer space, killing the Angel in one blow. The scene is accompanied by dramatic sound effects, and escalating choral music which is hushed to silence the moment before the Lance strikes the Angel. It's easily one of the most exciting scenes in the series. In the original version, we see the last twinkle of the Angel's existence vanish into nothing, and suddenly the only sound we are left with is the hollow, empty echo of its destruction. In the Renewal version, instead we hear the sounds of Second Impact, and the Angel never fully disappears. The original version makes the Lance seem more powerful by making it more apparent that the Angel was not just destroyed, but blinked completely out of existence. And that in turn increases the dramatic impact of the scene and makes it more impressive. In the Renewal version, it sounds like maybe part of the Angel is still alive, maybe slowly dying. The idea was probably to make a connection to Second Impact, which is another event in which the Lance interacted with an Angel. It's not a bad idea, but it's the execution that is lacking. The way it's done softens the impact that the death blow originally had. In the original version, it's even clearer that nope, that thing isn't just going...it is GONE. The way the sound of the Angel's death fades to silence in the original also does a better job at contrasting with the sounds that come before and after it in both versions: the clamor of music and sounds that precede it, and the bustling sounds of NERV Headquarters that follow it, along with the curt report, “Target destroyed.”

4) Heaven's Door Opens
Episode 24
Kaoru opens Heaven’s Door just by looking at it, and Terminal Dogma, the place upon which the fate of mankind rests, is suddenly defenseless. The importance of this moment cannot be understated. It is the moment that marks the beginning of the scene's climax, a scene that is the climax of the episode, but more importantly, the climax of the entire TV series. The sound effect the electronic lock makes when it's opened was changed in the Renewal version. The problem with this is that they didn't bother to change the sound of the lock at the end of Episode 15, when we hear what is likely the same door being unlocked (and if it isn't the same door, it is clearly the same make). And creating inconsistency isn't the only consequence of changing that sound. In the original Episode 24, the pitch and duration of the beep is more harmonious with the music, and has a more dramatic impact (remember that the music too has just built up to a dramatic point just before falling silent and going into its climax). In the Renewal version, the beep is a shorter, anticlimactic discord that fails to punctuate the music and complement it as effectively.

5) Unit 01's Eyes
Episode 1
Unit 01 breaks free of its arm restraints, moving without power to protect Shinji from a falling light fixture. In the original version, the lights in Unit 01's eyes never turn off. But in the Renewal version, its eyes turn off when the order is given to reconfigure it for Rei and reactivate it. There's nothing too out of place with that, but it's how the eyes turn back on that makes no sense. It seems random because there is no apparent cause. There's no audio cue or communication to tell us what's going on, and there should be. There was communication acknowledging the order given to reconfigure Unit 01, there was even communication chatter when Unit 01 moved with no power, but there is no communication to confirm that it's been reconfigured, or reactivated, etc. And then there's the sound effect inconsistency: there's no sound effect for when the eyes turn back on, which is out of place considering they went through the trouble of adding a sound effect for when the eyes turn off. All that this Renewal change does is raise questions, when the scene worked fine before the change. In fact, it was airtight. There's no other point in the series when a docked Eva is on-screen when the order is given to reconfigure it, so there's no reason for us to conclude that the eyes would turn off when that happens. (Note that while Unit 01's eyes do turn off in Episode 19, that's because it's refusing the dummy plug.)

6) Color Palette
All Episodes
Colors are tinted blue in the Renewal version, and darkened. To me, this change alone might even outweigh the loss of quality you get by watching the Perfect Collection (in other words, I might rather have a moderate loss in picture quality than a severe loss in color).

And here are other changes that I think are less important, but are still worth mentioning simply to demonstrate the difference between the original and Renewal:

7) The Lance in Zero-G
Episode 22
After the scene back at NERV after the Angel is destroyed, there is a shot of the Lance drifting through outer space. In the Renewal version, the animation has been changed, and the Lance is shown flipping end over end rather than drifting in a stationary position. The newer animation looks great, but the problem is that, once again, the corresponding episode that is affected wasn't changed to match it. It breaks continuity with Episode 24, when the Lance is shown drifting in a stationary position rather than flipping end over end. That kind of thing doesn’t happen in outer space where there's no drag. If it starts flipping, it stays flipping. And this begs the question: how did it start flipping in the first place? It shot through the Angel like a bullet.

8) Eva Series Intel
Episode 22
The time of day in the scene where Hyuga gives Misato intel about the Eva series production is changed from dusk (original) to night (Renewal). I'm mostly indifferent about this change, but it makes a little more sense that in order to draw less attention to themselves, Misato and Hyuga wouldn't be meeting up at night out in the open. Out in the open at dusk, and it's easier to imagine that any potential witnesses would probably just assume they're taking a break at the same time, or having a work-related or friendly chat after work. At night, it raises questions of conspiracy: what are these two doing together at this hour? I realize there can be late work nights, but it's a question of which version of the scene raises less questions.

9) Gendo's Voice
Episode 1
Shinji is reunited with his father for the first time in years, only to be told to either pilot Unit 01 or leave. In the original version, Gendo's voice echoes with booming authority, which is fitting given the history between Shinji and Gendo, and Gendo's position at NERV. But in the Renewal version, it sounds like his voice is coming out of a cheap radio. I realize the idea in the Renewal version is that they're using communication equipment. Even if you think the scene is less believable in the original version, ask yourself this: which version does a better job at delivering the emotion of the scene? Make sure to watch the whole scene, because it's not just one line. And appropriately, the echo effect is only noticeable when the camera is further away from Gendo, and is used consistently with other characters' voices as well to convey the acoustics of the space. While I prefer the original for the emotion of the scene, objectively I will admit that the Renewal change makes more sense.

10) Fuyutsuki's Reaction to the Lance
Episode 22
After the Lance destroys the Angel, and Fuyutsuki asks, “What about the Lance of Longinus?”, he looks more calm in the original, while he looks more tense in the Renewal version. Moments later when he replies, “It’s impossible to recover now,” he relaxes and seems to accept the situation in the original, whereas he remains tense in the Renewal version. I'm completely indifferent about this change.


There's a good reason I said, “It's similar, but not nearly as excessive.” I chose my words carefully. Using an extreme example to quickly illustrate the point of something more subtle is a common communication shortcut and well within reason, especially when I openly acknowledge the severe difference between the two things being compared. The similarities between the two are that in each case, the currently distributed version underwent changes that make it different from the original version, and that the original version is no longer nearly as accessible as the changed version.


All the real narrative changes (with the sole small exception of unit 01 eyes switching off on episode 01 when Ritsuko tells Maya to restart the activation) are exclusive to the Director's Cut version of episodes 21-24. I cannot fathom why you bring all those changes as an argument to completely dismiss the Blu Rays and the Renewal version WHEN THEY BOTH ALSO HAD THE "ORIGINAL AIRING" VERSION ALONGSIDE THE DIRECTOR'S ONE IN THE FIRST PLACE! It even includes the original animation mistake of episode 24's Unit 02 wrongly colored right white stripe untouched! And like I said, the episodes have the original stereo soundtrack anyway, so even in that aspect you are not missing anything. The only real argument against the Renewal and Blu ray is only the colors and crushed blacks, really, and like I said, the other benefits in picture quality FAR OUTWEIGHS the crushed blue-tinted shadows. Sometimes I also gets annoyed by the crushed blacks and I check out the old archival version, but I'm an completist myself, of course. I'd never recommend for anyone else watching Eva in the old awfully interlaced SD format!

What other films or TV series share those similarities? Evangelion and Star Wars are the only two I can think of, so that's the reason for the comparison. It's also a good comparison because Star Wars is so well known. If there is a closer comparison to some other film or TV series, chances are not as many people would get the reference.


Different cuts and animation/film corrections are extremely common in several media. We get that thing in Anime all the time with new BD versions having whole new redrawn scenes. Birdy the Mighty, Madoka, Bakemonogatari, Nisekoi, Yuri Skating, Code Geass, Shinsekai Yori, the list goes on, just google images (Anime bd changes) and you'll have hundreds of examples. Shaft is very well known for doing that, we also commonly get extra "ecchi" scenes on censored broadcast animes all the time. Western Movies also often suffer from that. Even Matrix had re-framing changes for the television edition, James Caron loves doing Director's Cut version of his films and there are hundreds more examples of classic movies that had significant changes in the newer BD captures: Apocalypse Now, Badlands, Fight Club, Raider of the Lost Ark, etc. Star Wars may be just the most infamous one, but again, the level of changes of Eva are much smaller than all the examples I gave you previously, and that was only the most famous blockbusters I could think of. Kubrick, Lars von Tier and even Kurosawa also have different versions of their movies around. Anyway, if you want to make a more on par comparison with the level of awful changes Lucas made to Star Wars, then the best analogue example I would think of is of the horrid 2008 Ghost in The Shell 2.0 movie, with horrible CGI replacing beautiful animated cell scenes. Notably on the opening of the movie. I prefer the "original" 1995 cut myself. But that is definitely not the case for Eva when it comes to episodes 1-20, 25, 26 and EoE. But then again, xara was kind enough to provide us with the original and DC version of episode 21-24, as well as for the first time in the west, the original version of Rebirth, not the fake cut down frankestein of Air that was available in DVDs, before, posing as rebirth. Rebirth wasn't present in the Renewal remaster nor the Perfect Collection.

You're contradicting yourself here. You accuse me of being incorrect when I say there are changes, but then you start listing some of the changes! Although I would say it's more like you are understating the changes (see below).
(...)
There are indeed other episodes that underwent animation changes (see above). And the change made to Unit 01's eyes are not a “fix.” Quite the opposite, actually. But then again, “if it ain't broke, don't fix it.” So I guess in that sense, they did “fix” it.


You completely hackslashed my comment. Maybe I wasn't intelligible enough, let me try to re-explain:
There are 3 types of "differences" in the BD version compared to the older pre-2003 versions:

1) Narrative changes
2) Animation errors and animation corrections.
3) Technical aspects of the picture itself

When I said there are virtually no changes, I was referring to item 1. The ONLY SMALL exception (change "biggest change" with "small exception" which I previously wrote so It won't be a "contradiction" anymore) is on episode 1. Indeed on episode 01, the change of eyes of Unit 01 is the only change that fits the number 1 criteria outside the director's cut episodes.

Since episode 21 and 24 have the OA versions, item 1 does not apply for those.

Regarding item 2, you later said I shouldn't say "correction" but "change". I disagree when it comes to item 2. The picture I have shown of the wrong color painting on Unit 02 and the wrong time on the remaining activation time are clear examples of unintentional mistakes by the animation team, this sort of thing is actually EXPECTED to be fixed, it does not affect the viewer experience to a different "tone", but may actually be detrimental to the immersion. (Just like an airplane captured in the background filming of a historical movie, which happened before and was fixed for the blu ray edition of a movie I don't recall right now).

And finally, item 3 is the one that is relevant to discuss, but I've already exhausted all the arguments regarding this aspect in my previous post.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, or what you think I'm saying. Years after the original series was released, changes were made to the series, and it was released as the Renewal version. Those changes (some of which I mentioned above) are what separate the original from the Renewal version.
(...)
I would expect nothing less, but the problem is what they did to it afterwards. It's clear that the Blu-rays contain Renewal changes (or at the very least, changes made to mimic Renewal).

I was refering to your claim that there are "changes" in the remaining episodes than the above discussed episode 1, 19, 21-24. There aren't regarding itens 1 and 2. Regarding item 3, since we are talking about an analogic to digital transfer, it is inevitable that every new transfer will have slight light, gamma and white balance differences. Even the older DVD versions all fluctuate a lot in small differences of color and light to each other. The advantage of modern transfer machines is that they are more precise and color grading can be done on post. I agree that the color corrections for the Renewal edition were bad, this is precisely why I decided to fix most of the changes that were obviously unintentional. Again, this was already extensively discussed.

Well that's a surprise! So that means it's possible to watch the series without hearing any of the Renewal changes I listed above, correct? What about video? Is there any HD capture of the original video before Renewal changes where made to it?

Yes for the first question, Regarding the second question, I was trying to explain until now that some of the color correction scenes were indeed badly done, but that the original DVD captures are not more better or "precise" in any way to our aspiring "ideal", precisely because the capture machines from the time were inferior to today's. While the dark-blue tint is a real problem of the modern capture, the other aspects are all superior like I have already explained twice.

I heard about the Archives DVDs but haven't seen them yet. I figured I would catch up on the most recent Eva releases when I have more time for my project. Thank you for bringing that to my attention! Do they include the stills from the sponsors' commercials? That's one thing about the OA I'm not enthusiastic about. It sounds like something that would be distracting and interrupt the flow of an episode.
(...)
Including the Second Impact Box? Have you compared it to that?
(...)
The point is that I value the release that is the closest match, and the colors in the Perfect Collection are a much closer match than Renewal. And while The Second Impact Box is superior to the Perfect Collection, it just isn't accessible enough (it wasn't released outside of Japan and is super expensive).

Only after the openning, not in the middle of the episode.
I don't have any dvd's from the second impact box, It would be interesting to compare, but I believe it doesn't. The reason why Archival is so good because it was made from the SD masters captured with the film stocks extremely fresh as they were print from the animation studio. They look MUCH better than the perfect collection, I doubt any other DVD could have a better picture, but I'd surely be nice to test it out.

You know what I'd personally value? A raw untouched HDR capture of the film stocks with all its defects. It is sad that the blu ray remaster were done just a couple of years before HDR UHD televisions popularized. Issues of badly exposed frames and crushed blacks would most definitely vanish if they could have boosted the capture to 10 bit. Now there is little hope they'll ever do a newer capture of the original film stocks so soon. Truth is, the original airing is far from perfect, even if the film stocks were fresh, the capture machines of that time were not very precise and like I said, that yellow and green tint was not intentional and are pretty awful. What I really wanted is the closest possible to what the film stocks would look like projected on a wall with a modern precisely calibrated 6500k LED light and a fresh pure white screen. We sadly will never have that.

The closest we will ever have to know what the real colors of the old film stocks are, is this single frame:

http://diff.pics/xBJM51uXIsrc/1

I notice this when checking my color correction of Episode 02. At first I thought I had made a "bad cut" of were the frame ended so the color correction only applied before the last frame of the shot. But then I found out this was originally on the blu ray. These SS are directly from the m2ts. This is not the only occurence of this sort of bad scene-change cuts from sony, I noticed over half of dozen of those, but this one is particularly significant because this is the last scene of the episode before the "continues" tag and ending scene. What this means is that likely there is not other color grading after the last scene and that picture is what the image likely looked like before it was color graded (ruined with awful yellow tint). It actually looks like an error/corruption of their deflicker filter, you can see broken rectangular artifacts on top of the picture.

In that case, those suggestions make much more sense! If I were to do a Blu-ray release, numbers 1, 2, and 6 are all changes I would make even if you hadn't suggested anything. Number 3 I still don't understand (but that's okay if you don't want to explain it).

3 refers to the text of a line disappearing precisely the same moment there is a frame change (if it has enough screen time to be readable, of course). Avoiding scene-change text "bleeding", that is the technical term. This is proven to be much more natural and less distracting than text that does not respect scene changes. This also applies to text appearing 1~3 frames later after a new scene-cut appears. It is not always better to sync the text exclusively to the audio waveform, sometimes a variation of 100~150ms that "snaps" the text to scene-changes and concatenates the text with previous line, is better. But that is a lot of work and manually resyncing, it is understandable if one is not commited in doing that. I did it mostly for the EoE and some more noticeable scenes on the series on my PT-BR subs.

No, much of your technical information is relevant to my project and I appreciate it! I'm interested in seeing the most authentic version I can get, both as a fan, and for use with my project.

But I'm glad you did! I'd much rather have people say something that has a chance of being insightful or helpful than not say anything at all. And this is a forum after all. If you have something to say, it doesn't matter how helpful it ends up being, butt in! This should be a place where we talk when we have something to say. I even consider non-constructive criticism helpful, as it at least calls my attention to something that could potentially be improved.

Thank you!

I'm happy you appreciated and considered some of my commentaries. I hope it could contribute positively with your work.

View Original PostReichu wrote:sephirotic, shouldn't your "fixes" for episode 19 include the final shot (Gendo corrected to still be covered in 01's blood)?


Of course, I had completely forgotten about that old discrepancy, nice of your of remembering it, I'll even add to my article eventually.

Image
Left is my exposure adjusted version. I didn't touch most of the colors of the final scene, only exposition.

Gendou could at least cleaned his face up in the few minutes it took him to go to his office, that can be considered a Level 1 change if it wasn't intentional by Anno, not an animation fix, only way to know is to check out the storyboard. But I think it is a positive change, nevertheless.
Last edited by sephirotic on Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:27 pm

No blood in the storyboarded version, though given the unlikelihood of Gendo wasting a moment's time to shower and change his suit, it feels like they're just correcting an oversight here.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:19 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:No blood in the storyboarded version, though given the unlikelihood of Gendo wasting a moment's time to shower and change his suit, it feels like they're just correcting an oversight here.

Where did you check the storyboard? I checked the rough DUB cuts on DISC 10 but the last scenes of episode 19 were blank.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:20 am

In Storyboard Collection Vol. 4, of course.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:22 am

Bloody Gendo is one of the Renewal changes I noticed years ago, but forgot to mention in my recent list. I consider it an improvement for the most part because he doesn't have nearly enough time to make himself spotless. The problem is that the reflection of Unit 01 in front of him is way too dark. It almost looks like a hologram or miniature wailing away in front of him.

And this is a complete nitpick, but isn't it a little odd that he hasn't wiped the blood away from his eye? That's a normal human impulse when there's something on your face, especially when it's wet. It's little things like this that make me imagine how hilarious it would be to see the things that transpire in between scenes that TV shows and movies never show us:
Fuyutsuki: “Uh...Gendo, you have blood on your face.”
Gendo: “What? I do?”
Gendo wipes the wrong side of his face with his hand.
Fuyutsuki: “No...not there...”

sephirotic wrote:I'd never recommend for anyone else watching Eva in the old awfully interlaced SD format!

Included in the download for my subtitles is a step-by-step guide and AviSynth scripts that use a high quality deinterlacer called QTGMC that greatly improves the appearance of the video, especially when a higher quality is specified. For details, see this folder located in this folder of the download:
Video Processing\Instructions - High Quality Video

sephirotic wrote:Regarding item 2, you later said I shouldn't say "correction" but "change".

I think you might be misinterpreting what I said. What I was getting at is that not every change is necessarily an improvement, so saying “correction” rather than “change” is a dubious choice of words. A correction is a type of change, but a change is not a type of correction. I agree that there are miniscule changes that can without a doubt be considered corrections, like the paint job on Unit 02 that you pointed out. Those types of changes don't concern me. But most of the changes I highlighted aren't miniscule and can't be considered corrections, because they are making changes in places where there are no errors to fix, and sometimes even causing new errors. And to say that the addition of a new error is a correction is pretty backwards.

As for those changes that I do consider corrections, there are probably a bunch I haven't noticed, and that's part of my point. It's great that they caught them and went through the trouble of fixing them, but they don't affect the viewing experience as drastically as most of the changes I highlighted. Not even close. And that's what makes the original series superior to the Renewal version. I'll take a better piece of art with a few scuffs and scratches over a lesser piece of art in mint condition. Any day of the week.

sephirotic wrote:3 refers to the text of a line disappearing precisely the same moment there is a frame change

Okay, I gotcha now. I actually did do this for my fansub of The End of Evangelion, which you can download by following the link in my signature. But yeah, I don't think I have the man hours to do that for the entire series. That's another thing about limitations. They keep my perfectionism in check. I'm content sticking with the timestamps from the DVDs, otherwise my perfectionism will ruin me. But it's a good suggestion. And on that note...

Is anyone aware of which release of the original series (before Renewal changes) has the subtitle timing that you think works best?

sephirotic wrote:I cannot fathom why you bring all those changes as an argument to completely dismiss the Blu Rays and the Renewal version WHEN THEY BOTH ALSO HAD THE "ORIGINAL AIRING" VERSION ALONGSIDE THE DIRECTOR'S ONE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

This is getting ridiculous. We need to get to the bottom of this. Do me a favor: pop in your Renewal disc for Episode 22 (non-DC). You don't have to post a screenshot. Just tell me if you see the lance flipping end over end, or drifting in a stationary position for its final shot in the episode, approximately 21 minutes in.

And you don't have to shout in caps or use gigantic font sizes like you've done. You're already calling plenty of attention to yourself without them, and I'm reading your posts carefully.

sephirotic wrote:You completely hackslashed my comment.

I was just trying to cut down on space. These posts have been gargantuan. Nothing personal. But the contradiction is still there whether or not I choose to keep the parts that aren't relevant to the contradiction, so what does it matter?

sephirotic wrote:let me try to re-explain:

Okay, that makes a lot more sense. Thank you. And to clarify, the contradiction I was talking about was that you began by saying there were no changes, and then started listing changes.

sephirotic wrote:You know what I'd personally value? A raw untouched HDR capture of the film stocks with all its defects.

That would be sweet.

sephirotic wrote:The closest we will ever have to know what the real colors of the old film stocks are, is this single frame:

http://diff.pics/xBJM51uXIsrc/1

I notice this when checking my color correction of Episode 02.

That sure is a definitive statement for something that looks off. There's still a blue tint. Notice how her jacket is leaning towards dark pink, instead of just being red. And the color of the light side of her hair is really dark. Also, it's from Episode 1, not 2.

sephirotic wrote:Different cuts and animation/film corrections are extremely common in several media.

Well this is a digression! I'll reply anyway, but Blu-ray-exclusive edits have absolutely nothing to do with the comparison I made, so I'll ignore that part. I'm not familiar with any of the anime references you made, but I've seen a good chunk of the western movies you listed, and of those (plus many more you didn't mention), the original versions aren't noticeably harder to find than the director's cut versions. I've seen both on the shelves of stores numerous times. It's not uncommon to even have both versions included in the same release. So I don't see how your examples have a stronger connection to something like Eva or Star Wars, where the original version is that much harder to find than the edited version. And again, part of why I made the comparison is because I've only seen that happen with Eva and Star Wars. It doesn't matter how many times you've seen it happen because we're not discussing a comparison that you made. Maybe part of the difference in our perception is due to the fact that we're in different countries and don't have equal accessibility to the same movie versions. But I think that's irrelevant. I think if we were on the same page about what the Renewal changes comprise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And the TV edit you mentioned is about as obscure as you can get. I don't know how it is where you live, but over here, movies get completely butchered on TV. I certainly haven't seen TV edits for sale here, and I have never heard of someone who prefers the TV edit over the original or director’s cut.
Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:38 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:In Storyboard Collection Vol. 4, of course.

If only importing things from Ebay and Amazon wasn't so ridiculously expensive and overtaxed here in Brasil... I almost had to sell my kidney to get myself the Blu rays. But now I'm tempting to buy those anyway...

View Original PostMjolnir Mark IV wrote:Bloody Gendo is one of the Renewal changes I noticed years ago, but forgot to mention in my recent list. I consider it an improvement for the most part because he doesn't have nearly enough time to make himself spotless. The problem is that the reflection of Unit 01 in front of him is way too dark. It almost looks like a hologram or miniature wailing away in front of him.

And this is a complete nitpick, but isn't it a little odd that he hasn't wiped the blood away from his eye? That's a normal human impulse when there's something on your face, especially when it's wet. It's little things like this that make me imagine how hilarious it would be to see the things that transpire in between scenes that TV shows and movies never show us:
Fuyutsuki: “Uh...Gendo, you have blood on your face.”
Gendo: “What? I do?”
Gendo wipes the wrong side of his face with his hand.
Fuyutsuki: “No...not there...”

I actually agree that the reflection looks too dark. Doesn't look like a reflection anymore. But hey, at least he did clean the blood from his glasses, didn't he?

Included in the download for my subtitles is a step-by-step guide and AviSynth scripts that use a high quality deinterlacer called QTGMC that greatly improves the appearance of the video, especially when a higher quality is specified. For details, see this folder located in this folder of the download:
Video Processing\Instructions - High Quality Video

Hah, if only QTGMC was all what is needed to remove the ghosting artifacts... I used a mcbob + QTGMC and Pwnsweet actually cleaned hundreds of frames in photoshop individually for our remaster project of episode 16... Still many ghosting left.

This is getting ridiculous. We need to get to the bottom of this. Do me a favor: pop in your Renewal disc for Episode 22 (non-DC). You don't have to post a screenshot. Just tell me if you see the lance flipping end over end, or drifting in a stationary position for its final shot in the episode, approximately 21 minutes in.

Ow Jesus, you are right! I knew that on Episode 22 some cells from Asuka and Fuyutsuki face were replaced with the new ones even for the OA, but I thought the longinus spinning wasn't changed since the "de-spiral boost" sequence was removed. I have rewatched episode 23 and 24 side by side and they don't have any changes whatsoever. The only animation replacements on OA is from episode 22.

So yes, you are right for episode 22. Episode 22 is my favorite episode of the whole series, more than A Man's battle and the Last Messenger, I personally welcome all changes from the pre-renewal version. The cells of Asuka look very bad on the original, there is one particular replaced shot I didn't like in the original but I also didn't like the replacement: When Arael starts the attack on Asuka and she screams "konchikisho". They tried to hide her eyes with her bangs but the bangs looks unnaturally big on this particular shot. But like I said, I think even If this particular change is not to my liking, the rest of the redrawn cells are all better, particularly, the drawings of Asuka as a Child in the beginning of episode 22 were REALLY awful in the original, she looked like a midget with a giant head, while in the redrawn from the DC, her proportions and face are more natural. That being said, It really annoys me on the Renewal version of the Director's cut, how excessively dark blue the rain sequence is on Episode 22.. I tried to fix it to match a middle-term between the perfect collection and Archival on my corrections for episode 22 and how the reused cells looked like on episode 26: http://imgur.com/a/RkD7U Nevertheless, some crushed dark details can't be saved, such as the one on the first set of pictures here: https://i.imgur.com/BDGa7U5.jpg
This is why I have a deinterlaced (with QTGMC and mcbob) version of both the Archival and Perfect Collection versions of Episode 22 on my HD. (I Actually did buy a coupe of episodes 20-26 from the Perfect Collection on ebay).

Anyway, I'll give you that Episode 22 is altered even in the OA version of the Renewal. But episode 23, 21 and 24 are not. Even the coloring mistake of Unit 02 stripe is preserved. Episode 23's redrawn cells are also not changed, (Rei looking surprised vs stoic when she turns to look at Shinji in the hospital, or the Eva's cemetery being lying down torsos of skeletons vs pits of bones in the shape of the Sephiroticum system.).

That sure is a definitive statement for something that looks off. There's still a blue tint. Notice how her jacket is leaning towards dark pink, instead of just being red. And the color of the light side of her hair is really dark. Also, it's from Episode 1, not 2.


Typo, I obviously opened Episode 01 to make that SS, not 02. Of course I'm not 100% sure that is what the scan looked like "raw", but I'm pretty damn confident it is because the colors look better than the yellow tint version. Yes I agree it also is not really "balanced", there is blue tint there, but that is likely just how the raw capture looked before they tried to "match" the 2003 colors. (Remembered how I told you that capturing machines are not perfect and calibrating the white point of the light is difficult, most discrepancies are fixed on post later). But, well, it is just guessing after all.

And the TV edit you mentioned is about as obscure as you can get. I don't know how it is where you live, but over here, movies get completely butchered on TV. I certainly haven't seen TV edits for sale here, and I have never heard of someone who prefers the TV edit over the original or director’s cut.

Back in the VHS era, many movies you could Rent in VHS were made off from the TV cut. Some early DVD's were also like this. I personally liked the super-35mm rescans in widescreen when the movie was actually 2.40:1 because it filled my television better. Watching 2.40 format on a 4:3 tube was awful. Matrix reframing for 4:3 was actually pretty decent. (I also like the HDTV version of matrix better than the 2.40, I have a captured copy of it from when it aired on Warner, I was even planning on trying to remove the Warner logo overlaying the HD-DVD footage on that spot, but meh... I don't have that free time to spend on other projects besides Eva) But once again, I digress. I think we can wrap it up: With the exception of episode 22 and the scene of episode 01, I still think overall all the other episodes are unanimously better to watch in the blu ray format instead of Archival (or Perfect collection) for the experience closest to the originally Ideal. I mean, I would be much more inclined to agree with you that it is better to watch the Perfect Collection DVD's instead of the Renewal back before the release of the blu ray, even if the interlaced artifacts of the Perfect Collection were really bad, we would still be comparing apples to apples, same limited BT420 colorspace, same limited 480p resolution for both versions... But now you should really give a try in the BD, it is a whole new level, and since like me you were bothered by the colors of the Renewal, you should give a try to my color corrected version. (I'm working on a V2 of episode 22 and 19 Color corrections by the way, with more fine tuned fixes, but I won't make those v2 versions "public", if you are interested, however, I could send you the .pproject)
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:01 am

I was under the impression that the "OA" episodes in Renewal were back-edited from the remastered DC ones - so they have no standing in any discussion of how the OA episodes actually were.
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