Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:14 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I was under the impression that the "OA" episodes in Renewal were back-edited from the remastered DC ones - so they have no standing in any discussion of how the OA episodes actually were.


From what I could check, that only applies to episode 22. Episode 23 OA has a different film stock than Episode 23 DC. Same goes for 24. I actually suspect a OA version with the old ugly non-reanimated cells for Episode 22 exists and that they actually didn't capture it for the Blu ray. I remember back when I was analysing Death footage, that I could find particular dust specks on Episode 23 OA film stock present on the Death movie, but those spek were not present on the DC version of Episode 23 (for non altered scenes). I'm now curious to see if Episode 21 has two different film stock masters too since there is no animation differences, only added scenes, I'd go speck hunting on the two versions of episode 21 (also 22) when I have more free time.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:01 pm

Episode 21 OA has been updated with the DC animation, as well. (This page notes the few exceptions.)
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby Mjolnir Mark IV » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:29 pm

sephirotic wrote:So yes, you are right for episode 22.

No, I'm not just right about Episode 22, I'm right about ALL of the changes I pointed out! They all exist. Let's not understate this. You made a huge deal of denying the fact that they all exist, which did a good job at making me look like I was full of shit...but even worse, it has the potential to actually misinform people reading this by leading them to believe that not all of these changes exist, because so much of this thread is cluttered by definitive statements you made that make it look as though you were stating the facts, and as if I were spreading false information. And you did this not just once, but over and over. So people who skim through this thread might actually believe that the differences that I pointed out don't actually exist...when the truth is that they do. I'm fine if people don't think the changes make as much of a difference as I do—that's a matter of opinion. But I want them to at least see the changes for themselves before deciding—and hopefully really think about them first.

sephirotic wrote:Anyway, I'll give you that Episode 22 is altered even in the OA version of the Renewal. But episode 23, 21 and 24 are not.

Don't forget about the sound effect change in Episode 24. And why on Earth would you bring up episodes that I never even mentioned, like episodes 21 and 23? You're shifting focus away to changes that weren't made. We could go on forever about what wasn't changed. Why even start?

Edit: I shouldn't have taken your word for it when you said Episode 21 doesn't have any changes. I just checked, and you're wrong about that, too! The non-DC Renewal version of Episode 21 has pretty much all of the same changes that are in the old scenes from the DC version (old as opposed to the completely new scenes that were added in).

sephirotic wrote:Even the coloring mistake of Unit 02 stripe is preserved. Episode 23's redrawn cells are also not changed, (Rei looking surprised vs stoic when she turns to look at Shinji in the hospital, or the Eva's cemetery being lying down torsos of skeletons vs pits of bones in the shape of the Sephiroticum system.).

Again, you're drawing attention away from my point, which is the changes worth mentioning (outside of the Director's Cut). I honestly can't tell whether your enthusiasm is causing you to change the topic (which is fine), or if you're trying to defend your credibility by understating your mistake and piling trivia on top of it.

sephirotic wrote:Hah, if only QTGMC was all what is needed to remove the ghosting artifacts...

The ghosting you're referring to is actually something called blended frames. I fixed that too. The AVS scripts included in the download for these subtitles will automatically restore the video to its original/base framerate by using Srestore to unblend it to 23.976 fps. That, combined with QTGMC (also in my scripts), does a terrific job at fixing the inadequacies you mentioned. The only small downside is that the intro sequence, which is the only part of each episode that actually was 29.97 fps, loses some of its frames due to the AVI limitation of requiring a constant framerate. But test it out, and you'll find it's a small price to pay.

The end result is that my scripts greatly improve the video of the Perfect Collection, and elevate it up in quality to something considerably higher than what people are used to expecting from it.

sephirotic wrote:Of course I'm not 100% sure that is what the scan looked like "raw", but I'm pretty damn confident it is because the colors look better than the yellow tint version.

The Perfect Collection colors look better:
http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0B4fNpxiuCvtESW93enFoaldaR00

You know why? Because light that casts a warm tint over everything like the Perfect Collection is common in real life: a late afternoon sun, incandescents, reflected light, etc. But light that tints everything like the Renewal or Blu-ray colors simply doesn't happen. That's why Renewal and the Blu-rays look off.

I'm betting the colors from the Second Impact Box are even better.

sephirotic wrote:I'm now curious to see if Episode 21 has two different film stock masters too since there is no animation differences, only added scenes

Incorrect. There are animation differences in Episode 21:
  • Kaji's face is redrawn for his final scene.
  • The last shot of Yui's face when she talks to Fuyutsuki in her first scene is different. The animation depicting a shift in her expression is actually removed!
  • When young Rei's face fades into Yui's, psychedelic colors and a heat-wave effect are added.
  • Young Ritsuko's clothing is redrawn for her first Gehirn scene.
  • Young Ritsuko's expression while riding the train is different.

And this is just from memory (from when I was working on a project about a year and a half ago), so there are likely other differences. Plus there are shots you can call a hybrid between an alteration and an addition, like the shot of the phone in the first scene with Kaji, or the photo of Yui, Gendo, and Fuyutsuki that replaces the montage of news articles.
Edit: Just checked. If it matters to you, these two changes are only in the DC version (as opposed to both the DC version and the non-DC Renewal version).

Edit: And if I had realized so many of these changes were in the non-DC version of Renewal, I would have added them to my recent list. I would describe most of them as minor cosmetic changes, some of which I like—but not the missing animation from Yui's expression with Fuyutsuki, and especially not the effects for when Rei's face fades into Yui's.
SPOILER: Show
While the added colors and effects convey a better sense of Naoko's emotions (which probably include some combination of shock, jealousy, disgust, pain, resentment, hatred, and of course, murderous rage), this change has the potential to make it difficult for a first-time viewer to recognize Yui's face, and I think that recognition is very important for the viewer's comprehension, because it provides one of the clues that allows the viewer to piece together the connection between Yui and Rei.


Edit: And it looks like there are even more differences mentioned in the link Reichu posted that I either forgot about or missed.

sephirotic wrote:the rest of the redrawn cells are all better

I don't see what's better about the Angel not fully disappearing.

sephirotic wrote:the rest of the redrawn cells are all better, particularly, the drawings of Asuka as a Child in the beginning of episode 22 were REALLY awful in the original, she looked like a midget with a giant head

Little kids ARE midgets with giant heads. ;) But seriously, I consider the changes to those shots a cosmetic difference that doesn't even come close to outweighing the changes I highlighted. I'm mostly indifferent about the re-drawings of Asuka, but to critique them (keep in mind these differences are far more subtle than the ones I felt were necessary to point out), I think there are some things you're overlooking in the original version. In the first shot of her and in the next one a few moments later, Asuka's general expression is one of toughness. But there's a subtle complexity to her expression in the original that gives her a little more depth—a vulnerability trembling beneath her steel exterior. It could be pain or uncertainty, but whatever it is, she isn't quite as resolute. Whereas in the Renewal version, she just looks tough. I think the complexity in the original works well because it's more telling of Asuka's character. She isn't invincible, and no matter how hard she tries to trick herself into believing she is, she knows she isn't. This hint of vulnerability would undoubtedly only be even more evident in her early childhood, especially given the tragic context of what's happening in her life during that scene.

Back to that first shot, the child-like proportions are emphasized to a greater degree in the original. The Renewal re-drawing makes her look older. Either way, she still looks like a little kid, so it doesn't matter to me. As for the even less important details, what's drawn better in the original includes the top contour of her bangs, the cuffs around the adult's wrist (which look more three dimensional by wrapping around better), and the bottom contours of the bow under Asuka's neck. Most of the improvements in the Renewal re-drawing aren't as important as the expression and proportions: her ears are drawn better, as are the bows in her hair, and the outer contours of her hair dropping down behind her head (as for the top contour of the bangs I mentioned, they appear sanded down and more formless). So I'm surprised to hear you say that by comparison, the drawing looks “REALLY awful in the original.” I mean, given that, you must think a good chunk of the entire series looks really awful. The only shot I like better in Renewal is Asuka's profile shot.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Digitally Re-Created VHS Subtitles

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Postby sephirotic » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:52 pm

View Original PostMjolnir Mark IV#857885 wrote:No, I'm not just right about Episode 22, I'm right about ALL of the changes I pointed out! They all exist. Let's not understate this. You made a huge deal of denying the fact that they all exist, which did a good job at making me look like I was full of shit...but even worse, it has the potential to actually misinform people reading this by leading them to believe that not all of these changes exist, because so much of this thread is cluttered by definitive statements you made that make it look as though you were stating the facts, and as if I were spreading false information. (...)
Don't forget about the sound effect change in Episode 24.
(...)
Again, you're drawing attention away from my point, which is the changes worth mentioning (outside of the Director's Cut). I honestly can't tell whether your enthusiasm is causing you to change the topic (which is fine), or if you're trying to defend your credibility by understating your mistake and piling trivia on top of it.

Let's try to remain calm here. I'm really sorry if I displeased you with my writing. It is difficult to be emphatic passionate and humble at the same time in a second language.
Look, I already admitted that my memory was wrong regarding Episode 22 (and 21) OA version of the BD not having replaced animated scenes. I apologize for that. However, my mistake does not diminish the main point I wanted to convey. I'll repeat myself: I really appreciate and recognize all the immense work you have done with your VHS sub project, just skimming through all documentation and scripts you have put in your zip files, even the edited .png files for individual episodes, is an amazing job I don't dear to criticize.

However, you were also incorrect in some accounts and statements you have made yourself. You also seem to continue to ignore that the BD have the old pre-renewal audio mix, so several of your listing of "changes" are a non-issue. The questioning you bring about the color issues of the BD while partially true, is incorrect when claiming that the overall color, luminance and picture of the DVDs are better. And regardless of that, even if I agree with you that Episode 1, 22 and also 21 and 19 have some small questionable changes, without entering the merit of either they being good or bad (you should give more credit to Anno choosing to ALTER HIS WORK before telling people not to watch the altered episodes), the fact still remains that the series have another 22 unaltered episodes which would simply be better to be watched in BD!
While I appreciate your work, and it is of course perfect valid for you to make subs for whatever release version of Eva you seem fit, I got disturbed as you responded to me with the fact that you recommend the Perfect Collection as "overall better" than the Blu Ray the way you did. Just as you are worried that people may misinterpret my claims, I was also worried of people misinterpreting your subjective and sometimes also objectively incorrect claims of the superiority of the Perfect Collection, and that those people would eventually think it would be better to watch Eva in DVD instead of BD. That is utterly nonsense!
If you had just said "I personally prefer the Perfect DVDs for my own subjective reasons", that would be fine, but when you said "it wasn't because of nostalgia" and started arguing why the Perfect Collection were superior I simply couldn't remain silent!

The ghosting you're referring to is actually something called blended frames. I fixed that too. The AVS scripts included in the download for these subtitles will automatically restore the video to its original/base framerate by using Srestore to unblend it to 23.976 fps. That, combined with QTGMC (also in my scripts), does a terrific job at fixing the inadequacies you mentioned. The only small downside is that the intro sequence, which is the only part of each episode that actually was 29.97 fps, loses some of its frames due to the AVI limitation of requiring a constant framerate. But test it out, and you'll find it's a small price to pay.

I know very well what "blended" frames on an interlaced telecine capture means. It is pretty irresponsible, not to say, absurd, to claim that QTGMC and srestore are more than enough to fully fix the effects of telecine. That is FALSE. They barely begin to diminish the issues. While in theory the process should be easy: blend the lines of two fields together and exclude two duplicated frames in a group of five pictures, In practice with bad capturing equipment and a low bitrate MPEG2 video, the blended frames "bleeds" and smudges several follow up frames (not only the repeated ones!) creating "ghosting" artifacts (to what I referred) which are virtually impossible to be detected and cleaned automatically by any high complexity Avisynth filter in existence. Unless you clean frames individually in photoshop, you will still have lots of remainders of the blended frames in the form of "ghosting" in several frames. I'm no amateur when it comes to video, I worked professionally as a video editor in the past. And like I said before, blending and ghosting are not the only problems of the old DVD release, add haloing, chroma bleeding, moire, bitstarvation, film flickering, limited compressed BT470bg color format as well as Broadcast 80% NTSC limitation, bigger cropping, yellow and greenish tints and a simply lack of resolution, and you get a gigantic pile of eyesore that is simply impossible to be improved to even come close to the level of picture quality of the Blu ray and would impact the immersion and enjoyment factor of whoever is watching! This is no trivial matter even if you completely and conveniently committed a Red Herring while ignoring this part of my previous comment whilst nitpicking and hackslashing several other statements you had better counter arguments to quote from me. (Also, I'd strongly discourage people from using XVID. even on Virtual dub with avi it is possible to use x264vfw, at least you can make sure to set the correct primaries to bt470bg there)

The Perfect Collection colors look better:
http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0B4fNpxiuCvtESW93enFoaldaR00
You know why? Because light that casts a warm tint over everything like the Perfect Collection is common in real life: a late afternoon sun, incandescents, reflected light, etc. But light that tints everything like the Renewal or Blu-ray colors simply doesn't happen. That's why Renewal and the Blu-rays look off.

Difficult for me to criticize this late statement politely because it is blatantly incorrect, not to say irresponsible (again). You are completely lacking objectivity and technical knowledge about photography and lighting to actually not see how most of the light cast on the Perfect collection is due to incorrect white balance of either the projector's light or the film negative while making that statement. Claiming the old Perfect Collection looks yellow because it "mimics a sunset" is giddy. The variations of yellow, blue, red and green tint on the film capture of the old DVD formats were OBVIOUSLY not intended by the creators. There are, of course, cases of intentional color casts such as the sunset on episode 16 and 24, the bloody scene of episode 16 and 19, the helltrain scenes, the Red street on episode 4, or the blueish hospital scenes. Those are proper examples of intentional color tints made by the producers of the series, but even those scenes change slightly from capture to capture. All minor color variations ARE TECHNICAL IMPRECISIONS OF THE CAPTURING EQUIPMENT! 90's analog anime DIDN'T HAVE COLOR GRADING! Artistic choices were made pretty obvious on the coloring process or pretty distinct color filters on the lighting of the capture machine. That is not the level of change we are talking here, the variations we see in your example are not intentional! By the way, last time I checked, Misato's hair was definitely Dark purple, NOT light blue, the colors of that picture you posted are obviously worse on the Perfect Collection for my eyes. There is chroma bleeding on the edges. The white-point on her eyes are almost 10% lacking on the blue channel, while less than 5% on the right picture. Reds are also retracted on the mid-tones, her jacket looks orangish and her red lipstick is muffled. There is some excess green on the darker tones too.

We are going too much offtopic here, maybe it is the case of spliting these posts into a new thread, but I'll continue nevertheless for this last post:
Yes, some episodes of the renewal remaster had poor color reproduction, infamously episode 19 is the worse, which I wrote a full article talking about, but the others are much more consistent and even if the shadows have a blue shift, most of the rest of the colors of the older versions are objectively worse.
http://diff.pics/tx6QeCq30hxt/1
First image is a perfect example, we can see the crushed blue-shift on the tree trunk from the BD version. Is it worse? Yes, however, the rest of the picture have mushed colors on the older versions. The subtle different tones of the autumn leaves are lost on the Perfect and Archival collection. BD is CLEARLY better. Same goes for other pictures, number 2 looks darker and bluer on the BD? Yes, but at least Hyuga's and Misato's hairs are not green. Third picture is a complete green mess, subtle nuances of colors in the hardware are lost, perfect collection is particularly bad having lost shadow detail on the desks on the left corner. Forth picture, same issues, fifth picture, Asuka's hair may look better on archival, but her plugsuit looks almost orange due to the excessive yellow cast that makes even her seat looks off. Sixth picture doesn't even need commentary, last picture, dark mushy poor contrast, yellow~reddish cast on the background white, again some poor shadow color balance makes Misato's hair darker shade looks green. Not to mention the awful loss of detail, particular for the Perfect collection compared to the BD version. It is not even a contest.
Now, just to be honest, here are a set with more questionable choices where the pre-renewal fair a little better:
http://diff.pics/KE9A9YxffAv8/7
First shot may have a different painting for Gendou's hair but we can see how ridiculously green the whole picture is, again, Perfect Collection suffers from exposition the most, you can't even tell the real color of Fuyutsuki's boots. Second and third Third picture are just to illustrate that I agree that darker exposition suffers from severe blue shift on the BD, there is no way to save Misato's top black color to look proper, but at least on my color correction version, I have balanced the remaining yellowish colors on highlights and the exposition better than the Perfect and Archival version. But look how worse the Perfect Collection is on the third picture, it also IS bluer than the "original" Archival, the crushed black is even worse than the BD, you can't see the Sega Saturn's power cable and it looks quite green. 4th picture is a mixed bag, exposition is clearly better on the BD but colors are not ideal either. However, Perfect still suffers from a strong pinkish tint on the highlights (almost 20% more red than it should on Ayanami's plug suit. NO that is NOT due to LCL.) and the infamous green tint on the darker shades. I still consider it worse than the BD. Fifth picture has an excess blue tint on the highlights on the BD, but at least the sky is not green like in the Perfect version. This image is nice to reflect how awful the resolution of the DVD is and how much less detail it has, specially on the Perfect Collection which has less than half of the bitrate of the archival, on a fast pan. Unit 01 looks ridiculously blurred. Sixth color's looks similar, although ONCE AGAIN the metal platform looks too greenish on the Perfect version, and there is some serious color bleeding around Misato's hair and jacket. Last example is problematic on BOTH sources. BD is too much blue, but the Perfect collection once again suffers from too much green. Between excess green and excess blue, the latter is always preferable, tough, and of course, the overall much more resolution on the BD always put a nail on the coffin of any DVD version when the colors are not really that worse anyway. (By the way, keep in mind I have a calibrated AH-IPS 2713H dell to evaluate all those colors).

There are, of course, some trade offs, sometimes there are more shadow detail in the Archival version, the blue-shift is particularly bad on night scenes like the Hikari's room I posted, but like I said, overall claiming the light and color of the DVD's being better is... "irresponsible", and the Perfect collection is much worse than the Archival. If I wanted someone to have the "most pure nostalgic original 90's feeling" while watching Eva, I'd recommend the Archival, NOT the Perfect collection.

I think there are some things you're overlooking in the original version. In the first shot of her and in the next one a few moments later, Asuka's general expression is one of toughness. But there's a subtle complexity to her expression in the original that gives her a little more depth—a vulnerability trembling (...)
Back to that first shot, the child-like proportions are emphasized to a greater degree in the original. The Renewal re-drawing makes her look older. (...)her ears are drawn better, as are the bows in her hair, and the outer contours of her hair dropping down behind her head (as for the top contour of the bangs I mentioned, they appear sanded down and more formless). So I'm surprised to hear you say that by comparison, the drawing looks “REALLY awful in the original.” I mean, given that, you must think a good chunk of the entire series looks really awful. The only shot I like better in Renewal is Asuka's profile shot.


I disagree with your subjective analysis of the redrawings of Asuka as a child. Subjectively, to me, I who first saw the pre-renewal version of Eva hundreds of times, I welcome the changes. The drawings on episode 22 that were replaced were almost all worse in my opinion. Particular on the profile view of Asuka on the beginning of the Episode, her ear looks immense for a child, the bigger the ear, the older the person. I don't care if the original had more detailed ears, they were ridiculous big! I trust that the changes of expression chosen by Anno were what he actually wanted to convey. You should give him more credit, not treat him like an Idiot like George Lucas. Anyway, we could extend this debate regarding the choices of changes from the old OA to the Renewal (as well as the one regarding colors) ad infinitum. But I think I have already polluted and derailed this thread that should have been about your project with myself butting in. This should continue in a different thread. I'm sorry the discussion evolved the way it did. I think is about time for me to go. Regardless of my disagreement with your dismissal of the BD's, I still wish you to keep up with your good work. Once again, thanks for the subtitles and excuse me for my rudeness.
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