Reichu wrote:
(1) Classified Information thread (long and haphazard, but worth skimming through end-to-end; all of the relevant "Path to God" crap turns up here, I think)
(2) This might be slightly relevant

I've "skimmed through" all of the first one, but it's hard to seperate the worthwile stuff from the rest. It's a lot to take in.

The second I found really enlightening. I think mostly in the respect that I had always known Gendo's plans were different, and that he wanted to reunite with Yui. But I think that was the best explanation of the how he planned on doing it.

However, what I'm trying to get to here in this thread is the mechanics of how things work the way they do in NGE. Obviously it's a sci-fi world with its own set of rules and physiology that defies all logic.. Which is why our puny Lilim brains have such a hard time with it. :P But I'm trying to figure out the how/why things work the way they do more than anything.

Reichu wrote:
The Super Solenoid Engine is an organ that would develop inside Adam's core, just FYI.

The last part is what I have problem with though. Isn't an S2 what an ADO needs to develope in the first place (unlimited source of energy, the reason why they can do things we can't, etc.). If so, then it seems like they would have them from birth.

Reichu wrote:
"Prelude" to Seele's 3I, and all. They didn't know Lilith was going to intervene at that point, so the harpies were getting things ready to turn everybody into goo.

I would imagine so. The harpies are just unfolding a compound AATF and using their S2 Engines to cause a Giant Fucking Explosion at the same time. ("Narrative convenience".) Seems more plausible to me than ascribing giant explosions to something so specialized as an "Anti A.T. Field" -- which, logically, exists to counter ATFs...

This seems kinda funky to me. They're mentioning AATF at the moment there's a giant explosion that reveals the Black Moon. Yes, an AATF exists to "counter ATFs", but who says that's all it can do? If an AATF is some kind of "psychokinetic" (as you say) power/energy, then the idea that it can explode stuff fits in with 2I.

Reichu wrote:
ADO, not LDO, you mean.

Have you read the thread? I'll mention quickly here that Lilim are not the only ones around with DNA. ADOs have it, and so do all other LDOs. DNA is nothing very special if you are alive in a traditional sense.

That's what I meant.

I'd read/skimmed the long thread you posted, and just got into the other one. But I'm not suggesting that DNA is special, but that DNA seems to be the building blocks of both ADO/LDO.

IF (and it's just a proposal) an Angel's DNA is contained or is or whatever in the S2 engine (the CI says it's something that "looks like DNA") and the S2 is the "FoL" - it just makes sense to me that Lilim DNA would be the counterpart to the that and be the FoK.

But that's a lot of "IFs".

Reichu wrote:

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Well, I don't think you have to "believe" it - it's a hypothesis, not a fact. But building from my above idea - if the S2 is what makes up the very basis of what an LDO is, then DNA is what makes up the very basis of what humans/Lilim are.

ADO, not LDO, you mean.

Have you read the thread? I'll mention quickly here that Lilim are not the only ones around with DNA. ADOs have it, and so do all other LDOs. DNA is nothing very special if you are alive in a traditional sense.

There is a more direct hole to point out in this hypothesis, the Evas don't have the organ. What do Adam's natural offspring have that the Evas don't? The only thing I can see is the Evas souls came from Lilith, albeit in a very indirect manor, and the Angels got their souls from Adam. Thus indicating there is something metaphysical we're dealing with here.

My dear 'Jimbo, double posts are a chronic disease. Please, take these capsules twice a day (once in the morning, once at night) and make it go away. Otherwise, you get to put a paper bag over your head and go into the Quarantine Box. HELPFUL HINT: The Edit Button is your Friend.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I've "skimmed through" all of the first one, but it's hard to seperate the worthwile stuff from the rest. It's a lot to take in.

Does that mean I would need to manually extract the Path to God crap in order for that thread to have any significance at all? I suppose the simplest solution here is for me to not care.

Obviously it's a sci-fi world with its own set of rules and physiology that defies all logic.. Which is why our puny Lilim brains have such a hard time with it. :P

I think it has more to do with <insert "I have no bloody idea, fanwank something" picture> than anything else.

But I'm trying to figure out the how/why things work the way they do more than anything.

But, like, everything is connected, so everything is relevant. If you start a thread about the Impacts, there is almost no way it can go off-topic! LOL.

AEF wrote:There is a more direct hole to point out in this hypothesis, the Evas don't have the organ. What do Adam's natural offspring have that the Evas don't? The only thing I can see is the Evas souls came from Lilith, albeit in a very indirect manor, and the Angels got their souls from Adam. Thus indicating there is something metaphysical we're dealing with here.

YAH BUT THE CI SAYS THAT THE FOL=S2 ENGINE AND THE CI IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

You're channeling my old rants again, too. Thanks for saving me the trouble, KEKEKEKE.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
There is a more direct hole to point out in this hypothesis, the Evas don't have the organ. What do Adam's natural offspring have that the Evas don't? The only thing I can see is the Evas souls came from Lilith, albeit in a very indirect manor, and the Angels got their souls from Adam. Thus indicating there is something metaphysical we're dealing with here.

That thought had occurred to me too, but like every idea it still doesn't answer every question. You're implying that this Fruit thing is basically contained the soul, right? But then there's still things about this that doesn't make sense.

If all of the Evas have the FoK (because they have Lilim/Lilith souls), then why is Sho so special? She was "born" from Lilith so one conclude all Sho got was Lilith's "body". Is there something extremely special about that?

If the S2 is the ADO's soul, then that would mean that Gendo would've had to do a some kind of Kaworu soul harvest, hand/soul implant surgery for GNR to obtain the S2 in EoE.

However, this does tie into the Body/Soul connection I was thinking about previously.

If Gendo had Adam's soul (S2/FoL) and his body in his palm then what we see during EoE is the fusion of Adam's body and soul into Lilith's soul (FoK) into Lilith's Body.

So we have a full Adam/Lilith union.

In Seele's version, if a human soul is equivalent to FoK we have:

Sho = Body of Lilith, Soul of Lilim = FoK
MPEs = Body of Adam, Soul of Adam = S2/FoL




I think the one thing that argues against this is the CI which talks about the S2 being like DNA. Plus, it seems rather odd that Dr. Kat could've formed a theory based on something as meta-physical as a soul...

Reichu wrote:My dear 'Jimbo, double posts are a chronic disease. Please, take these capsules twice a day (once in the morning, once at night) and make it go away. Otherwise, you get to put a paper bag over your head and go into the Quarantine Box. HELPFUL HINT: The Edit Button is your Friend.

People reply so fast... It makes my head hurt. :(

Reichu wrote:
Does that mean I would need to manually extract the Path to God crap in order for that thread to have any significance at all? I suppose the simplest solution here is for me to not care.

Normally I'm happy to read through this Eva stuff, but we're talking 31 pages worth of people splooging over the new CI. I don't know how many posts there were saying "When's the next one!" :x:

Reichu wrote:
I think it has more to do with <insert "I have no bloody idea, fanwank something" picture> than anything else.

Even reading stuff like the CI you kinda get the idea that even the creators are fanwanking their way through much of it (I think). I wonder how much of all of this Anno even truly knows...

Reichu wrote:
But, like, everything is connected, so everything is relevant. If you start a thread about the Impacts, there is almost no way it can go off-topic! LOL.

MY POINT EXACTLY LOLLERS.

:cry:

Reichu wrote:YAH BUT THE CI SAYS THAT THE FOL=S2 ENGINE AND THE CI IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

You're channeling my old rants again, too. Thanks for saving me the trouble, KEKEKEKE.

Well, to defend the idea, because I think it's nearly as good as mine really - even if the S2 = FoL, does that mean that the S2 is necessarily a big, tangible thing? I mean, in the world of NGE they've found a way to suck souls into giant, soulless, humanoid beings and "harvest" souls that are flying around in Gufs into clones so I'd argue the "soul" is maybe a more tangible thing in NGE.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:If the S2 is the ADO's soul

It's not. The proposal is that the Super Solenoid Engine is the physical manifestation of the metaphysical "Fruit of Life", which is something Adam, and those who receive souls FROM her, have.

then that would mean that Gendo would've had to do a some kind of Kaworu soul harvest, hand/soul implant surgery for GNR to obtain the S2 in EoE.

Yes, the idea that Adam's soul was salvaged back into her body after Kaworu's death is an old one.

MPEs = Body of Adam, Soul of Adam = S2/FoL

They don't have the "soul of Adam".

I think the one thing that argues against this is the CI which talks about the S2 being like DNA.

DNA is a double-helix, and so is a "Super-Solenoid" (S2). A regular solenoid is comprised of a single helix.

Plus, it seems rather odd that Dr. Kat could've formed a theory based on something as meta-physical as a soul...

It was based on the PHYSICAL construct of the super-solenoid, whether an artificial one that could be used in a more literal "Super Solenoid Engine", or the organ that was found inside Adam's core.

People reply so fast... It makes my head hurt. :(

Then slow down.

Reichu wrote:I think it has more to do with <insert "I have no bloody idea, fanwank something" picture> than anything else.

Even reading stuff like the CI you kinda get the idea that even the creators are fanwanking their way through much of it (I think). I wonder how much of all of this Anno even truly knows...

That's the idea behind my little image.

even if the S2 = FoL, does that mean that the S2 is necessarily a big, tangible thing?

If Yui-sama can eat it in big, bloody chunks -- then yes.

"harvest" souls that are flying around in Gufs into clones

Huh?

so I'd argue the "soul" is maybe a more tangible thing in NGE.

They're metaphysical quantum-entities, so they are certainly intangible in that sense.

Reichu wrote:
It's not. The proposal is that the Super Solenoid Engine is the physical manifestation of the metaphysical "Fruit of Life", which is something Adam, and those who receive souls FROM her, have.

Then doesn't it seem *logical* that there would be some physical manifestation of the FoK? Since we have the FoL being linked with DNA, and DNA being the building block on which Lilim are built on, why is the idea that DNA = FoK unreasonable?

Reichu wrote:
Yes, the idea that Adam's soul was salvaged back into her body after Kaworu's death is an old one.

I know the idea is an old one. I'm not talking about the idea itself, but rather where GNR got the S2 from (from the the BODY that was already there or the SOUL that that salvaged into it).

Reichu wrote:
They don't have the "soul of Adam".

Not literally, I meant figuratively. Gendo's combination seems to be "the real one". Seele seems to be using counterfeits (so to speak) for their "forbidden union".

Reichu wrote:
It was based on the PHYSICAL construct of the super-solenoid, whether an artificial one that could be used in a more literal "Super Solenoid Engine", or the organ that was found inside Adam's core.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here:

They used the idea of the physical construct of the super-solenoid to explain "Adam's power" as it were? How did they even know where to start (with a theory)?

Reichu wrote:
Then slow down.

That would be a valid idea if I had something better to do at the moment. ;)

Reichu wrote:
If Yui-sama can eat it in big, bloody chunks -- then yes.

I thought she ate the entire core of Zeruel and the S2 with it...

Reichu wrote:
Huh?

Haha, nothing. Related to below:

Reichu wrote:
They're metaphysical quantum-entities, so they are certainly intangible in that sense.

I meant they're "tangible" in the sense that Lilim in the series have found a way to manipulate them.

*closes can of worms*

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Then doesn't it seem *logical* that there would be some physical manifestation of the FoK? Since we have the FoL being linked with DNA, and DNA being the building block on which Lilim are built on, why is the idea that DNA = FoK unreasonable?

I've always been partial to the FoK manifesting as our uber-adaptive brains.

You are right, you clearly far exceed all of my expectations of the Japanese language and my attempt at getting translation results in nothing but "fan-translations" which are only good efforts by eagar amatears (sic).

I do not personally translate Japanese to English or vice versa, for a living or as a hobby. If that's what you're good at then that's awesome. Maybe you have a better command of the Japanese language than the people who I'm asking to help me translate stuff.

I, of course, being as obtuse as I am, don't understand why "The seed of two types of blood on one planet is unnecessary, therefore, one of them must be eliminated" means such a person (who also translates for fansub groups, not that it means he's good at translating) is neither bilingual nor has experience in real translation. And you're probably right. I don't personally know a professional translator.

But beside all that crud, I'm more interested in your take of the what the original Japanese in the NGE2CI should be translated as. If everything that is wrong, bestow upon us your knowledge.

Edit: I'm not being sarcastic here at all. I recognize that the NGE2CI translation is not done by a professional, it is a mere fan translation

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Since we have the FoL being linked with DNA

Fruit of LIFE is a double helix like DNA, therefore DNA is Fruit of Knowledge?

But seriously. If FoK=DNA, then everything from sub-bacterial lifeforms to giant honkin' humanoids who mutate into floating octahedra, sea monsters, and Wheels of Fire would "hold" it.

Not literally, I meant figuratively. Gendo's combination seems to be "the real one". Seele seems to be using counterfeits (so to speak) for their "forbidden union".

Don't follow.

I thought she ate the entire core of Zeruel and the S2 with it...

She chomped through the crust of the core and, while Ritsuko is commenting "ZOMG S2 ENGINE TAKING INTO HERSELF OH NOES", we see Yui-sama tearing off a chunk of flesh.

Simple explanation: The S2 "Engine" is a flesh-and-blood organ that can be eaten. In bloody chunks.

ORAMI!? wrote:I sincerely hope it is not Reichu's

I bet you wouldn't be surprised if it was.

because it is less of a revamp and more of a corruption. The phrasing is off and the word choices are forced/contrived.

Please ejimicate me. (But hopefully without shouting down from a "bochan_bird's translation is the only right one" podium or whatever.)

- Long lists of phrases that are not tied to an object are not that uncommon in Eva explanatory materials

The CI is a lot worse than many other things I have seen in that respect.

It is a good example of why a lot of fan-translations are good efforts by eager amateurs, but end up being bad translations.

When the "real translators" don't do anything, it leaves open the horrible possibility that n00bs might take a stab instead.

Again, aside from a bit of intentionally cryptic wording, there is nothing really that difficult with the CI language itself from the viewpoint of a Japanese fan.

Are you a Japanese fan?

Ornette wrote:Edit: I'm not being sarcastic here at all. I recognize that the NGE2CI translation is not done by a professional, it is a mere fan translation

Not that professional translations are things to trust unconditionally either.

sorry, improper button operation.
Was supposed to be an edit of previous posts and not a new post.

ORAMI!? wrote:*staples lid shut on can of worms*

A private message would suffice, since you did "open your mouth" and rouse my curiosities.

Reichu wrote:Fruit of LIFE is a double helix like DNA, therefore DNA is Fruit of Knowledge?

But seriously. If FoK=DNA, then everything from sub-bacterial lifeforms to giant honkin' humanoids who mutate into floating octahedra, sea monsters, and Wheels of Fire would "hold" it.

That was the logical connection I was making - that since the physical FoL resembled DNA, the FoK could logically be DNA.

And we're talking "LDO DNA here".

Remember, Lilim and Angels are, what? Within 99.89% of each other? That means only about 1 in 900 some parts are different. That's not much...

Reichu wrote:
Don't follow.

*Sigh* This was a non-DNA = FoK theory so bear with me:

Ok, Gendo has the REAL Adam/Lilith Soul/Body combination. This combination is also the FoL/FoK combination. Seele needs this too, but obviously can't replicate it exactly since Gendo has the "real deals".

Enter:

Sho: Made from Lilith's Body and a soul descended from Lilith (FoK).
MPE: Made from Adam's Body with a soul (S2) descended from Adam (FoL)

However, it's looking like the whole "soul = S2/FoL" is being debunked so that theory is looking as much too.

But, as per usual in NGE, this brings up new questions: If the S2 has nothing to do with the soul, why did Gendo need Adam's/Kaworu's soul for the Rei/Lilith/Adam fusionastic scene?

Reichu wrote:

She chomped through the crust of the core and, while Ritsuko is commenting "ZOMG S2 ENGINE TAKING INTO HERSELF OH NOES", we see Yui-sama tearing off a chunk of flesh.

Simple explanation: The S2 "Engine" is a flesh-and-blood organ that can be eaten. In bloody chunks.

This makes sense. But then, by logic, wouldn't it also make sense that the FoK is something physical as well?

Reichu wrote:Please ejimicate me. (But hopefully without standing on a "bochan_bird's translation is the only right one" podium.)

Oh, bochan certainly makes an occasional mistake, but not near as many as people think, and this is not one of those cases.
1) "embryo/embryonic state" is a perfectly acceptable translation for "tamago", and better fits the context. Furthermore it is supported by Evangelion Chronicle. Insisting on "egg" implies either a lack of experience with other uses of the word "tamago", or a limited=bad dictionary.
2) "Retrovert" (kangen) is a terrible word, and a meaningless change from the simple and adequate "return". It feels like change for the purpose of change itself.
3) The shifting of "15 years ago" is unnecessary, and possibly even inappropriate given that it injects an additional break into the spoken line.
4) Translating "shikumareta" as "devised" is a good example of picking a word from the dictionary without an apparent understanding of how the word is used in everyday Japanese. -If- I had to change it I would probably turn to the synonym "takuramu (planned/plotted)", although in the context of this scene the "willfully/on purpose" nuance really needs to be emphasized, which it looks like is what bochan did.

Are you a Japanese fan?

No... and yes
No, because my skin is white, my eyes are green, and my native tongue is English.
Yes, because in addition to studying Japanese for many years in school, living in Japan for the past ten years, and speaking, reading and writing the language as a native, I recently became... Japanese.

Ornette wrote:Edit: I'm not being sarcastic here at all. I recognize that the NGE2CI translation is not done by a professional, it is a mere fan translation

Not that professional translations are things to trust unconditionally either.

True, but...

Person with 2-3 years of book study, pawing through a dictionary trying to decipher something that is at times quite simply over their head
. . . vs.
Person with generally ten or more years of formal study and hands-on experience, including hopefully a number of years actually living in Japan

Trust who you want.


FWIW, the NGE CI translation is a "good effort", and I think that good efforts like these are important both for the fans that do them (it's good study/practice and some of these people ultimately continue to become skilled at Japanese) and the fans that read them (the more information available, the better). That said, it is riddled with mistakes. :(

When the "real translators" don't do anything, it leaves open the horrible possibility that n00bs might take a stab instead.

When n00bs repeatedly diss "real translators" and their work and piss on their contributions, it leaves open the horrible possibility that the "real translators" might take their skills and go home, leaving the n00bs to their own devices.

I have seen this happen with Japanese friends over here, and the same thing also happened to me a few years ago with a different anime/manga series, so I just stopped caring and contributing. Reading through EMF and ANF, it looks like a lot of the same has happened here, too, which is too bad, and also one reason why I will not contribute anything here, either. Why should I when, based on what I have seen, nine times out of ten I am probably going to agree with bochan's interpretations and thus disagree with Reichu? And we all know where that leads...

I can appreciate the effort that Reichu and others have put into their stuff, but IMO it would have been a lot smarter to better appreciate the efforts of others as well (instead of insulting them) and make the most of all available translation resources rather than to play favorites and try to establish yourselves by dissing other translations. But it's your forum, and if people are happy with the way things are now, then who am I to argue?


My two cents... :(



/edit
If this is going to cause problems or a flame war, feel free to delete it as I have my earlier posts.
In that case also feel free to delete me as well.

Ornette wrote:I, of course, being as obtuse as I am, don't understand why "The seed of two types of blood on one planet is unnecessary, therefore, one of them must be eliminated" means such a person (who also translates for fansub groups, not that it means he's good at translating) is neither bilingual nor has experience in real translation.

No one who is either decently bilingual or has real translating experience would turn "seimei no tane" into "types of blood", even on a first pass. It is worse than a bad Babel Fish translation.

But beside all that crud, I'm more interested in your take of the what the original Japanese in the NGE2CI should be translated as. If everything that is wrong, bestow upon us your knowledge.

No, for reasons that I have already outlined.

ORAMI!? wrote:If this is going to cause problems or a flame war, feel free to delete it as I have my earlier posts.
In that case also feel free to delete me as well.

That's unnecessary, I think.

1) "embryo/embryonic state" is a perfectly acceptable translation for "tamago", and better fits the context. Furthermore it is supported by Evangelion Chronicle. Insisting on "egg" implies either a lack of experience with other uses of the word "tamago", or a limited=bad dictionary.

What would be a "good" dictionary?

[the CI translation] is riddled with mistakes. :(

I'm quite aware of this, and it's a problem I would like to correct. As a qualified person, what is preventing you from sharing a list of errata with me? I already sent you a PM asking about this, but apparently to no avail.

When the "real translators" don't do anything, it leaves open the horrible possibility that n00bs might take a stab instead.

When n00bs repeatedly diss "real translators" and their work

ORAMI, by "real translators", I meant the non-n00bs.

and piss on their contributions, it leaves open the horrible possibility that the "real translators" might take their skills and go home, leaving the n00bs to their own devices.

Your rant came up before in the manga discussion forum, and I think I tried to explain my current position, but I suppose I didn't make myself clear enough. It's much less extreme than you might think. And how many n00bs really are doing the things you say they are?

I have seen this happen with Japanese friends over here

I beg your pardon?

Reading through EMF and ANF, it looks like a lot of the same has happened here, too

Where?

Why should I when, based on what I have seen, nine times out of ten I am probably going to agree with bochan's interpretations and thus disagree with Reichu? And we all know where that leads...

Sometimes I just don't "get" his interpretations. And I'm way too chicken-shit to ask him about his translations, so I instead question and wonder, "why did he do that?"

I can appreciate the effort that Reichu and others have put into their stuff, but IMO it would have been a lot smarter to better appreciate the efforts of others as well (instead of insulting them) and make the most of all available translation resources rather than to play favorites and try to establish yourselves by dissing other translations.

As if? I would be DELIGHTED if you and other people knowledgable in Japanese translated additional materials. There is an overwhelming amount of stuff that has simply been untouched, and it keeps on growing.

But do note the difference between "not agreeing with (or understanding) every translation choice somebody makes" and "dissing"/etc., because it is a huge one. Whatever the underlying problem here is, I would like it resolved.

I feel a "LOL - split" coming on...

I actually think this is an interesting topic, but it's badly derailing this thread. :)