My Big Honkin' "Mechanics of the Impacts" Theories

[ORAMI!?]

*closes can of worms*

[Ornette]

The Second Impact, 15 years ago, was something that humans devised. But that was in order to minimize the damage, by retroverting Adam all the way to an egg before the other Angels would awaken.

What doesn't make sense about that sentence? The original translation was the piss poor Manga translation, the above was Bochan Bird's translation.

Uh, that's not the bochan translation that I have read:

15 years ago, Second Impact was caused by humans on purpose. (Flashed shot: Second Impact) But that was in order to minimize the damage by returning Adam (flashed image: Giant of Light) to an embryonic state (flashed image: Embryo in attache case) before the other Angels awoke.

My bad, that must have been Reichu's revamp of his translation. Either way, it wasn't Manga's translation.

And remember, the CI was translated too. I've been reading Reichu's translations and even she admits how much trouble it was. Reading through the footnotes requires as much time as the actual thing itself. Her post on the Lance in particular was especially troublesome.

The CI was purposely written to use the most confusing of the Japanese language. One of the people who helped me with the first pass translation complained constantly that nobody writes like this and that it was written specifically to be hard to understand. It's different than the dialogue in EoE.

*cough*
The CI language is really not that difficult. Anyone who says it uses "the most confusing of the Japanese language" is bullshitting you because either a) their Japanese is not good enough to really understand it, or b) their English is not good enough to explain every little detail and nuance. The writing style may be a bit unusual in places, but it was not written specifically to be hard to understand (especially not by a native Japanese speaker and Eva fan). It is really not so different from other Eva "explanatory" material that is also intentionally vague.

Perhaps not, this was what I was told by the native Japanese speaker that I had help translate it. The majority of it is pretty straightforward, until you get to the parts where something useful could be gleaned. She wasn't a big Eva fan but I don't think that really matters, because the sections we had trouble with was specifically with the language and not the content, like long lists of phrases that are not tied to an object. I've never had this person help translate any other material besides excerpts from the filmbooks or scripts, which posed no problem at all.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Eva Yojimbo, if you ever feel "exceedingly bored", there is an uber-ton of groundwork discussion on all of this crap on ANF. (Search Tool, etc., etc.) AEF et al.'s attempts to bring you up to speed only seem to be confusing matters. Reading up on what's been done might be of some use/interest to you.

I've actually read a lot of the groundwork (not everything obviously, as I don't have a year of my life to spend on it). Despite the "groundwork" I've still yet to hear any solid theories that explain all of these things we're talking about in detail. And some of the theories (such as the "Adam ended up with the Lance in him simply because Lilith showed up here at the precisely wrong moment") I can't buy.

Nonetheless, care to post some links to some of the more insightful threads? I'm sure there's many on this topic - I'd rather just spend my time reading the ones that cover the most ground...

[Eva Yojimbo]

(Incorrect) "irarenai" = "cannot exist/be
(Correct) "iranai" = do(es) not need

See - it's for this very reason that I don't like to rely on things like the CI as much as others. Everyone reads a "translation" that is "Two seeds CANNOT exist" and they jump to the conclusion that "OMG! The Lance musta killed Adam when Lilith showed up bcuz two Seeds couldn't be here at the same time!".

When THIS translation radically changes the meaning. Even though a planet DOES NOT NEED two seeds, it doesn't mean the Lance is going to auto-impale a Seed when another one shows up (which never made sense to me). So my initial question of "how the hell did Adam end up impaled on his own Lance" is still a very valid question IMO."

I still wonder if we're not coming at this all wrong. The biggest PROOF we have of what happens with a SoL during an Impact/Creation of a a world is 3I. We actually get to witness the entire thing. We have an idea what happens during 2I, even though the details are fuzzy. If we could play CSI and connect the dots I think that would be much more productive than relying on the CI or any other outside source to tell us all the answers (which seems to only provide more questions anyway).

[Ornette]

The first pass translation of that line was:

The seed of two types of blood on one planet
is unnecessary, therefore, one of them must be eliminated.

I can give you a link to that if you want, although it's got more broken English and isn't as consistent as Reichu's 2nd pass translation.

[Eva Yojimbo]

The first pass translation of that line was:

The seed of two types of blood on one planet
is unnecessary, therefore, one of them must be eliminated.

I can give you a link to that if you want, although it's got more broken English and isn't as consistent as Reichu's 2nd pass translation.

Is there a link to the full CI without the commentary? The last time I read it was on the ANF in a humongo thread...

But I just hope I got my point across and that's that we can't take a translation of outside material and use this as the canonical basis to form theories. IMO, that basis must come from the series itself, and then the outside source must act as a supplement.

[Ornette]

The first pass translation of that line was:

The seed of two types of blood on one planet
is unnecessary, therefore, one of them must be eliminated.

I can give you a link to that if you want, although it's got more broken English and isn't as consistent as Reichu's 2nd pass translation.

Is there a link to the full CI without the commentary? The last time I read it was on the ANF in a humongo thread...

There is, there's a link of it off of the evacommentary.org front page. The excerpt that I posted was the first pass translation before I handed it off to Reichu. It was more of a literal translation and wasn't polished at all.

But I just hope I got my point across and that's that we can't take a translation of outside material and use this as the canonical basis to form theories. IMO, that basis must come from the series itself, and then the outside source must act as a supplement.

IIRC, the DotS was something that started before the NGE2CI was translated, or maybe it was just that excerpt. It was an attempt to explain why Adam was found with a spear in her back. I think it's always best to base a theory on the series itself, especially if it's something that cut and dry and doesn't require an interpretation. However, most of the unexplained things in NGE require interpretations of events, visuals and the narrative. People are going to have different interpretations, and not everyone will agree (Naoko's soul in Eva-00 for example). When the amount of information given in the series is so scarce, outside sources can help. You don't have to use them if you don't want to, and if you propose another theory in the outside source's stead, it's best not to contradict outside sources, as the way I see it: Series/Movies > outside sources > fanwank. Or you can completely discard ALL outside sources, but you'll not be able to use any theories that cited an outside source, and only use the series itself. In light of how big of a hole you need to fill to explain the mechanics of impacts, I think using outside sources would make things a lot easier.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I think the problem I have with the Outside Sources (OS) is that it seems like for every question they answer they leave 10 in their wake. That just seems really counter-productive IMO. Most of the revelations I've come to myself or read from others about the series have come from actually watching and citing the series/film itself and not from any info we/they got from OS.

[Eva Yojimbo]

A few thoughts have occurred to me recently.

I want to say that I think the thing's that's been bugging me is that: try as I might, I can't find many common things that link 2I and 3I specifically. And considering we know almost nothing of what happened when Lilith landed here, and created things as we know it, and Adam ended up skewered - there's not much to go on.

But one similarity did occur to me: When Seele and co. found Lilith she was obviously "not complete". Hence the reason they wanted to use the Lance to "suspend her growth."

Now, what could've happened to Lilith where she wouldn't have been "complete" and would've needed to be growing? This brings me to the 2I: 2I "blew Adam apart" and reduced him to an Egg/Embryo. Not only that, but in both cases we have both SoL's souls "not in their bodies." Now, was Lilith's in hers when Gendo and co. "sucked it" into Rei (honest question)?

For further linkage, I turn to 3I: We have Lilith again at the end of EoE "sucking up" all the souls and then kinda "returning them" (perhaps aided by Yui), and then falling apart.

So, basic idea: It seems that every time any kind of Impact/creation of life occurs, a Seed doesn't really make it out of it in one piece.


One other random hypothesis that occurred to me (and this is closer to fanwank than theory): It's been brought up about 1I being the meteor that killed the dinosaurs: In the NGE universe, a SoL is needed to produce life on planets. WHAT IF the dinosaurs were Adam's 1st creation? Lilith then lands on Earth, wipes some of the Earth out with the meteor, but then does the AATF/Impact thing and wipes all dino life out and readies the earth for Lilim to inhabit?

[Mr. Tines]

It's been brought up about 1I being the meteor that killed the dinosaurs

Contradicted by the schoolbook in ep#7 which uses the name for the Big Smash that formed the Moon. Chicxulub doesn't get a look-in.

EDIT: fixed typos above

[Ornette]

But one similarity did occur to me: When Seele and co. found Lilith she was obviously "not complete". Hence the reason they wanted to use the Lance to "suspend her growth."

Are you sure they didn't find her whole and that "not complete" thing happened because she was connected to (a "not complete") Eva-01?

For further linkage, I turn to 3I: We have Lilith again at the end of EoE "sucking up" all the souls and then kinda "returning them" (perhaps aided by Yui), and then falling apart.

So, basic idea: It seems that every time any kind of Impact/creation of life occurs, a Seed doesn't really make it out of it in one piece.

But that was because instrumentality failed. If it was successful, what would have happened?

[Eva Yojimbo]

Contradicted by the schoolbook in ep#7 which uses the name for the Big Smash that formed the Moon.

It's been a long time since I've seen the first 9-10 episodes... refresh my memory of what exactly you're talking about...

EDIT: I remember reading in the CI that the Black Moon after hitting Earth supposedly bounced off it. The ruins with Lilith were left on Earth, but the rest was left orbiting in space (THE moon).

Is that what you're talking about? I guess the only way that contradicts my idea is that there couldn't have been dinosaurs and no moon (timeline problem). But we must remember that this is a work of (science) fiction and are we sure that there was no life at the time of Lilith's arrival?

The main reason I propose something like this is the idea of Lilith showing up RIGHT AS Adam is in the middle of creating life on Earth is just too coincidental. And the idea that the Lance would go "Uh-oh! Two Seeds alert! Must stop 1st SoL now! Sorry dude!" just *doesn't make sense* to me.

Chixulub doesn't get a loo kin.

Yeah, uhhhh what? I understood "doesn't" and "get" and "a".

Are you sure they didn't find her whole and that "not complete" thing happened because she was connected to (a "not complete") Eva-01?

So they chopped her in half to 'build' Sho? :? To answer the question: No, I'm not sure, but are you sure she wasn't complete because they had her connected to Sho?

But that was because instrumentality failed. If it was successful, what would have happened?

Interesting question. Instrumentality seems to *truly* begin when all the souls join together inside Lilith's egg (or is it Lilith herself? That scene's kinda confusing). Since a SoL's job is to populate planets, it's an interesting question what would've happen if she had kept them there all because Shinji wanted things that way.

[Mr. Tines]

refresh my memory of what exactly you're talking about...

This is the ADV overlay from pre-Platinum



the translation is supposedly adequate.

Chixulub doesn't get a loo kin.

Yeah, uhhhh what? I understood "doesn't" and "get" and "a".

Chicxulub doesn't get a look in.

Fixed

[Ornette]

Are you sure they didn't find her whole and that "not complete" thing happened because she was connected to (a "not complete") Eva-01?

So they chopped her in half to 'build' Sho? :? To answer the question: No, I'm not sure, but are you sure she wasn't complete because they had her connected to Sho?.

It was a popular theory to explain the image of them being connected and why Eva-01 was Lilith's alter ego (why Seele was able to swap Lilith with Eva-01 for their formula for 3I/Instrumentality). And that is, Eva-01 was a clone of Adam but was using Lilith's biomass. For all we know, they could have been connected like that for some other reason, but then what happened to her legs and her shriveled up arm? In this case, Occam's Razor, one explaination covers both questions.

[Eva Yojimbo]

This is the ADV overlay from pre-Platinum



the translation is supposedly adequate.

Chicxulub doesn't get a look in.

Fixed

Assuming the time is right, that would certainly disclude the idea it wiped out dinosaurs (assuming everything in NGE follows the normal pre-NGE timeline). So then are we to conclude that all life from as far back as 4 billion years arose from LCL thanks to Lilith?

[Eva Yojimbo]

It was a popular theory to explain the image of them being connected and why Eva-01 was Lilith's alter ego (why Seele was able to swap Lilith with Eva-01 for their formula for 3I/Instrumentality). And that is, Eva-01 was a clone of Adam but was using Lilith's biomass. For all we know, they could have been connected like that for some other reason, but then what happened to her legs and her shriveled up arm? In this case, Occam's Razor, one explaination covers both questions.

To me this isn't Occam's Razor because it doesn't explain how Lilith got like like (once again my question: They CHOPPED her in half to create Sho?).

My theory that she was like that to begin with covers more topics (how she ended up like that and why she was like that when they "made" Sho from her) and falls more nicely under Occam's Razor.

[Mr. Tines]

So then are we to conclude that all life from as far back as 4 billion years arose from LCL thanks to Lilith?

If Misato doesn't outright state it in EoE, it is still the standard operating assumption.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Assuming the time is right, that would certainly disclude the idea it wiped out dinosaurs (assuming everything in NGE follows the normal pre-NGE timeline). So then are we to conclude that all life from as far back as 4 billion years arose from LCL thanks to Lilith?

I'm senseing a lot of confusion from you at this point. My advice is to expand upon the original ideas you brought up before moving onto new ones. Also, depper study of the ANF and EMF archives will be of great assistance to you.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

To me this isn't Occam's Razor because it doesn't explain how Lilith got like like (once again my question: They CHOPPED her in half to create Sho?).

My theory that she was like that to begin with covers more topics (how she ended up like that and why she was like that when they "made" Sho from her) and falls more nicely under Occam's Razor.

It looks like she was at some point, before EVA-01's birth, complete. Her mass perportions seem about right for a complete Lilith pre-EVA-01.

No one "chopped" Lilith in half, EVA-01 was born from Lilith, and as such was sucking biomass from mom and we see the result in ep #15.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I'm senseing a lot of confusion from you at this point. My advice is to expand upon the original ideas you brought up before moving onto new ones. Also, depper study of the ANF and EMF archives will be of great assistance to you.

Not *confusion*, but rather I'm not sure what part of this problem to focus on. It kinda started out in one place (The mechanics of the Impacts) and ended up being about Lilith's arrival and that whole ordeal. I'm not unwilling to study the ANF and EMF archives (I've spent many nights and hours doing so). But much like with the CI it seems like most end up creating 10 new questions for every 1 answer. And 98% of those threads are usually un-productive (and it looks like this one's heading in the same direction).

I think the problem is there's only so much progress one can make with the information given. You meet a roadblock and then you start to move sidways rather than forwards and then before you know it you're on something completely different. Then you get into this Roadblock -> Sideways -> New Topic -> Roadblock cycle.

I do, however, think I need to take some time and re-group and figure out what part of this I want to tackle.