How Gendo's plan differs from SEELE's plan?

[visionfactory]

At the beggining of Evangelion it's shown that Gendo's and SEELE's plans are very different

But in EoE it's like they have the same masterplan..... or is it just me?

- - - - - -

From what I know in Episode 22 a SEELE member says to Fuyutsuki that they are not trying to make a new god (unlike Gendo)

but I really don't get it

[Darkman.exe213]

At the beggining of Evangelion it's shown that Gendo's and SEELE's plans are very different

But in EoE it's like they have the same masterplan..... or is it just me?

- - - - - -

From what I know in Episode 22 a SEELE member says to Fuyutsuki that they are not trying to make a new god (unlike Gendo)

but I really don't get it

So, basically...

SPOILER: Show

Seele wants to unite all of humanity into one being(The 18th angel), so that people do not have to suffer the pain of living as separate entities.

Gendo wants to become God himself to be re-united with Yui.

Hope that helps.

[visionfactory]

But why SEELE becomes so angry with Gendo throughout the series? If basically their plans are the same thing . . .

[Merridian]

The idea is that SEELE wanted to totally nullify all individualism present in humanity with the soul-merging Instrumentality gig. It's still somewhat debated as to what Gendo's purpose (and possible benevolence) had been, but it's stated point-blank that he didn't believe SEELE's mass-genocide would result in anything positive.

I've always figured he was following the general gist of what Yui's plan had probably entailed, in which Unit-01 would be used as an arc where all souls would ride out 3I, probably have a massive-introspective therapy session in the process (kinda like EoTV). However instead of Instrumentality being a permanent end as was SEELE's plan, Yui's would have entailed it being simply a phase that would result in a better humanity. Gendo's disdain for SEELE's goal, coupled with some of his philosophical ramblings with Fuyutsuki throughout the series, led me to believe that he was more or less aiming for something similar, but with the added benefit of rejoining Yui (which had taken priority over everything else).

EoTV and EoE basically amount to what appears to be compromise; EoTV emphasizes a "Gendo End" in which he's reunited with Yui, everyone undergoes spiritual therapy and assumedly all come out as better people, while EoE emphasizes SEELE's goal of liquidating everyone on the planet in order for this therapy session to come about. I interpreted Yui's words in EoE "it's possible for anyone to return so long as they have the will to live" etc to imply that EoE was ultimately "Yui End", more or less. But this is wandering into “concurrency” territory…

tl;dr Gendo's and SEELE's plans hadn't really been the same. SEELE wanted to smash all souls into a single one, while Gendo either a) didn't care about anything except his wife, and/or b) would have preserved the human race more-or-less 'as is', using Instrumentality as a process for people to reevaluate themselves and each other.

[BeoX2]

Basically, Gendo was being selfish, and Seele was being overly parental.

[Darkman.exe213]

I think Gendo was trying to go for a small-scale third imapct, as in, bring instrumentality on just himself so that he can be with Yui.

[KnightmareX13]

I think Gendo was trying to go for a small-scale third imapct, as in, bring instrumentality on just himself so that he can be with Yui.

I don't think so, because when second impact happened half of the world population was wiped out as a result, and throughout the series it was always implied that if the third impact occurred all remaining life forms would be erased. So it seems that once the cat is out of the bag there can be no small third impact, so it was more like Gendo knew the risks and decided that he rather be with Yui than go along with seele's plan for instrumentality.

[Tycho]

tl;dr Gendo's and SEELE's plans hadn't really been the same. SEELE wanted to smash all souls into a single one, while Gendo either a) didn't care about anything except his wife, and/or b) would have preserved the human race more-or-less 'as is', using Instrumentality as a process for people to reevaluate themselves and each other.

That's mostly it in my opinion too. At first I thought Gendo was all about reuniting with Yui cos he wuved her but still was pro-actively meaning not to force instrumentality on humankind. But it may be that third Impact and Instrumentality were inevitable and still his scenario was the least grievous for mankind or that he didn't give a crap about humankind at all and just wanted to meet Yui again. It could also be that at first he totally wanted to avert Third Impact but by the end everything had totally gotten out of hand and he just said "FUCK IT I'M GOAN BE REUNITED WITH YUI NO MATTER WHAT".

Regarding the "how" (Gendo needed Eva01 as a "true God" while SEELE didn't)... well I don't think there's any real meaning to that, just (mostly) little meaningless details the writers threw at us to exemplify the intricacies of the different scenarios for Third Impact.

[Lucretius]

TV Series: Who knows. It's deliberately vague.

Manga: Gendo wants to be God.

[Mr. Tines]

Worth linking Reichu's compilation of the Gendo ends of the Evangelion 2 game -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSYE6EmWd8Q

[AuraTwilight]

And some people think Gendo wanted to upload everyone to a higher plane of reality where everyone was like a god and could do anything they want in a dimension of pure mind.

[visionfactory]

Worth linking Reichu's compilation of the Gendo ends of the Evangelion 2 game -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSYE6EmWd8Q

that's so cool thanks!

Thanks everyone

[SaltyJoe]

You just answered your own question.

I think i can see that our interprations on what actually matters and what doesn't in NGE are fundamentally different. However...

I maintain that there's nothing particularly non-sensical about NGE. A lot of it's decidedly unrealistic, but that's not the same thing.

"Gendo: Everything is according to the scenario."

He said that a lot of times, and everytime he said it, it was total bullshit. There's just no way he could have calculated for all the variables and possibilites within the plan he was pursuing. In my opinion, this falls on the side of "not making sense", instead of simply "not feeling realistic".

[Bagheera]

I think i can see that our interprations on what actually matters and what doesn't in NGE are fundamentally different.

I never said any of this mattered in the least. I really don't think it does; what mattered in that episode was Gendo's betrayal of Shinji (again). Everything else was just, as you say, window dressing.

Doesn't mean we can't talk about it, though.

"Gendo: Everything is according to the scenario."

He said that a lot of times, and everytime he said it, it was total bullshit. There's just no way he could have calculated for all the variables and possibilites within the plan he was pursuing. In my opinion, this falls on the side of "not making sense", instead of simply "not feeling realistic".

...or Gendo's full of shit. I don't really see the non-sensical part.

I think what he was getting at is that, since all the details of the Angels' behavior and humankind's abilities to deal with them are so undefined and nebulous all throughout NGE, the assumption that nothing could have been done to disinfect Eva-03, without anything about the idea being stated explicitly, could pretty fairly be argued as a foolish assumption to make.

Pretty much, yeah. And, also, that I'm pretty sure Anno never gave it a second thought since, as I said above, the point of the episode was Gendo's treatment of Shinji.

[SaltyJoe]

...or Gendo's full of shit. I don't really see the non-sensical part.

And who was he bullshitting? Fuyutski? The inconsistencies and plotholes of NGE would deserve a thread of their own, anyway. In fact, they pobably have one already.

[esselfortium]

And who was he bullshitting? Fuyutski?

Us.

[Bagheera]

And who was he bullshitting? Fuyutski?

Or himself. Take your pick. Is self-delusion really that incomprehensible to you?

The inconsistencies and plotholes of NGE would deserve a thread of their own, anyway. In fact, they pobably have one already.

I keep hearing about them, but every time I try to pin someone down on just what they entail I get a lot of heat and no light. I'm sure there are some goofs here and there but these "massive plot holes" continue to elude me.

[SaltyJoe]

Or himself. Take your pick. Is self-delusion really that incomprehensible to you?

Yet, in the end, everything did fell into place more or less the way Gendo seemingly wanted them to. Hell, EoTV is argued by some to be a "Gendo wins end", and honestly, that's pretty difficult to debunk. So either the writers really thought that they could pass things off like "Yeah, that's totally how Gendo planned it", or everything we see in the show is a product of freak chance, and Gendo was just riding along. The former case is ridiculous, the latter would require me to hang my suspension of disbelief by the neck from the top of the Burj Al Arab. And everything in between is a mixture of that two.

I keep hearing about them, but every time I try to pin someone down on just what they entail I get a lot of heat and no light. I'm sure there are some goofs here and there but these "massive plot holes" continue to elude me.

For example, the awakening of Unit-01 at the end of Ep. 19. More specifically, the way it's aftermath was handled (i nearly fell out of my chair the first time i got to that part), Seele's almost total non reaction, and how everybody seems pretty down with the situation of having a totally unpredictable, ominpotent being around, oh, three episodes later.

Us.

D'oh! Gendo is Anno! But of course!

[tehprognoob]

I'm more of, either
"Gendo's the maniacal genius who somehow is able to handle all the variables and forge a scenario/scenarios that define a loose line of events around which the story will follow"
or
"He's an Asuka-type. He says it to make himself feel like it's in control, so yea, like Bagheera said, bullshitting himself."

Either way, you have to adimit that if there are many variables, there can also be a great number of scenarios that Gendo & Co. can follow, and the scenario is probably constantly rewritten. After all, Seele & Friends have the Dead Sea Scrolls, which more or less tells you what's gonna happen anyway.

[BiQ]

...I always thought that Gendo's scenario was simply so malleable, ambiguous and ... "accommodating" that as long as he saw a path to the end where he was united with Yui, everything goes. That means, as long as he has
- Unit-01 (=Yui) in relatively safe position,
- Some incarnation of Rei at hand at the end,
- Lilith & Adam at his disposal at the end,
- Angels killed as they come

then... absolutely everything else is just window dressing. Eva units other than 01? Disposable, as long as angels get killed. Pilots... Rei? Can be resurrected. Shinji? ...if push really comes to shove, disposable, but the fact he pilots the darling 01 happens to make him safer in this regard. Asuka? Disposable. Toji? Disposable. Kaworu? Disposable, even if he wasn't an angel. MAGI? Ultimately disposable even if it would be a major PITA inconvenience. Lance of Longinus? Disposable, actually better off disposed.

As long as they are alive and hold on to the keys to his reuniting with Yui, everything goes. Of course, unnecessary fuck-ups do make life harder and should be avoided.

Sure, at this point the word "scenario" starts to mean very little.