Does anyone feel that Rebuild had done Asuka dirty?

[C.T.1290]

I have yet to see the final film for myself, although I feel as if Asuka hadn’t quite gotten some closure she needed or the happy ending that many fans, Miyamura included, had been hoping for.

I kind of feel like that the films had dehumanized Asuka, by making her a clone instead of an actual human being, and later as an angel hybrid, not being able to age, eat, sleep, or anything. Quite frankly, I think she deserved better. And she was pushed to the sidelines, and having her spot taken by Mari. Mari was basically Asuka’s replacement, first by taking her Evangelion, and then took Shinji away from her(but she had already moved on from him, so maybe it wasn’t a total loss).

Does anyone think that she should have stayed as a regular human being like she was in the original series? Now, I understand that Shikinami was meant to be totally different from her Soryu counterpart, but there was probably a better to do that, wasn’t there?

[Archer]

Asuka always felt to me like she’s there in the Rebuilds because she was there in NGE. The movies clearly just weren’t about her (which is fine, she certainly gets the spotlight in NGE and EoE is as much focused on her as it is on Shinji). The clone thing really feels like it comes out of nowhere, because they couldn’t just NOT give her a backstory, and it’s really not addressed in any meaningful way.

Honestly, I wish she’d been actually, properly aged up in 3.0, possibly replacing Misato as the captain of the Wunder. I think this would have been a great opportunity to explore her character in a way that would’ve been impossible in NGE. Despite the movie apparently expecting me to believe that she’s a mature adult, Asuka in 3.0 seems as immature as ever. I think aging her up would have a few good effects. First off, if the goal of 3.0 is to show Shinji as immature (something I have repeatedly opined to be incredibly poorly executed), it would have been cool to directly contrast him with an adult Asuka who treats him coldly but fairly and has no time for his bullshit. Adult Asuka could also ask the question, how would someone whose entire sense of self-worth revolves around piloting the Eva deal with literally growing out of it? In this fanfic, Asuka would be entrusting Unit 2, which she can no longer pilot, to Mari, and would basically be her superior. If you age up Asuka, you can also kind of just gloss over her backstory, because by that point where she came from and whatever issues she had (which were never really addressed to any depth in the movies anyways) would’ve been well behind her.

[kuribo-04]

I don't, though it's true 2.0 ahould have given her a little more screen time imo.

I have yet to see the final film for myself,

You're in for something if you are an Asuka fan. After Shin I'm completely satisfied with all characters' stories.

[EvaChero]

That's a pretty interesting idea Archer - further, Misato could be moved over to run the Village and actually be taking care of JR as well as taking in Shinji...hmm you should write it!

[nerv bae]

I have yet to see the final film for myself,

What are you waiting for?

[Szmitten]

I have yet to see the final film for myself, although I feel as if Asuka hadn’t quite gotten some closure she needed or the happy ending that many fans, Miyamura included, had been hoping for.

I think you might be feeling this because you haven't seen the final film which would have those things in it.

[Gendo'sPapa]

It doesn't.

She has a strong character arch told over the three films and one of the better character stories but a lot of it is done subtly in the later two films.

BUT a lot of fans want Evangelion to be "Asuka All The Time" so it has been constant complaint since 2009.

**Though I do 100% feel Asuka is definitely done the dirtiest in the Rebuilds by the misplaced leering sexualized shots. Mari a close second.

[Axx°N N.]

Yes, but I think it does that for every character.

Aside from yeses and nos, I feel like this thread could only serve the purpose of OP returning to give their take once they watch it, because any post of substance diving into Asuka's handling would be spoilers for OP ... regardless:

SPOILER: Show

There are happy endings in Thrice for pretty much everyone, including Asuka. However, I don't think the mere fact of an ending categorized as happy satisfies the requirements of great storytelling, at least not for me. OP mentions a litany of unpleasant things happening to a character and insists they deserve better, but I don't watch narrative storytelling only wishing to see good things happen to someone I empathize or identify with; in fact, many of my favorite stories and characters have very unpleasant things occur. However, it's not like the mark of greatness is merely stooping to 'torture porn' or anything; there are great narratives where only pleasant things occur, too. All that matters is that whatever occurs, the events are meaningful. And there isn't enough focus on Asuka for that in NTE, imo, regardless of what happens to her, whether it's the unpleasant nature of her upbringing or the absolution at the end. These things aren't explored with enough nuance to be anything but "Asuka is in pain," "Asuka is now not in pain, and that's good." A 2-minute montage doesn't pull enough narrative weight for me to feel the absolution is justified or means anything beyond "audiences like happy endings, here's one" or "happiness is good." When the ins and outs of a journey aren't present to a specific, human extent it becomes a mere mantra or gesture of value affirmation.

I think you might be feeling this because you haven't seen the final film which would have those things in it.

I'm not so sure. They seem to be gathering impressions from those who have seen it (in lieu of having watched it), and there are in fact plenty who watched it and felt like Asuka was mishandled.

BUT a lot of fans want Evangelion to be "Asuka All The Time" so it has been constant complaint since 2009.

Sure, but let's not fold legitimate grievances in with rabid fanboys and strawman anyone who plain didn't think she was written well.

[kuribo-04]

I feel like the rabid Asuka fanboys have more of a point tbh. She's well written, the only issue I see is the lack of time dedicated to her in 2.0.

She's a complex character, complements the rest of the cast, and most of this is done subtly. The final Instrumentality-esque sequence featuring her sheds a lot of light on her past and is stellar, but you could already deduce a lot of her character just from how she acted, even in 3.0 where she was also not that present (where it felt justified amd necessary opposed to the first half of 2.0).

To OP, I don't see how Asuka being a mock Lilin dehumnizes her. It's symbolism for mental illness, we already have Rei and Kaworu as other examples of very human "non-human" characters.

[nerv bae]

Offhand thought: "dehumanize" usually indicates a downgrade, but 3+1 dehumanizes Asuka in the other direction by showing that as an angel hybrid she's actually superhuman.

[Archer]

Personally I don’t see how Asuka is particularly well-written in 3.0 and 3.0+1.0. At best she’s adequate, with some potentially interesting character ideas that are never really fully fleshed out.

My biggest issue with her is the lack of a cohesive character arc. All the other major characters (Shinji, Rei, Misato, Gendo) have a central internal conflict that get addressed and resolved in 3.0+1.0. Shinji learns to take responsibility for his actions, Rei learns to live for herself rather than for others, Misato has to overcome the guilt she feels over her culpability in N3I, Gendo learns that he was kind of a massive prick and probably shouldn’t have done that.

Asuka’s internal conflict is, ostensibly, revolved around her own humanity, with three supporting elements:
1. She is a clone
2. She is an Angel
3. She doesn’t age

While this sounds fine and dandy on the surface, the problem is their resolutions don’t reinforce each other. The resolution to (1) would Asuka accepting herself as her own person, and no longer living under original-Asuka’s shadow. The resolution to (2) would be Asuka accepting that being part-Angel doesn’t make her a monster. The resolution to (3) is completely external in the form of Shinji magicking her a new adult body, and is thus completely irrelevant to the discussion of character arcs. So, despite all three of these points of conflict being vaguely related to Asuka’s perception of her own humanity, their resolutions don’t tie into a single cohesive character arc, like the other characters.

The main reason for this seems to be that the movies just didn’t have the time for her, which is why I think she should’ve just been aged up - doing so obviates the need for a character arc by turning her into a (more or less) responsible adult who already got over her problems off-screen, which is completely plausible for a 14 year timeskip. I’d rather have a character who explicitly has no character arc (like Mari, who isn’t even hinted to have any internal conflicts that need resolving) than a half-assed and poorly executed one.

Not to mention, aging her up would get rid of possibly my least favorite plot point from the Rebuilds - the fucking Curse of Eva, which is never adequately explained nor particularly relevant, given that Asuka is the only one who REQUIRES its existence to justify her youthful appearance, since Shinji was stuck in limbo, Kaworu isn’t human to begin with, Mari was already perpetually young well before her first time piloting, and Rei can just be a freshly-minted clone.

[C.T.1290]

Honestly, I wish she’d been actually, properly aged up in 3.0, possibly replacing Misato as the captain of the Wunder. I think this would have been a great opportunity to explore her character in a way that would’ve been impossible in NGE(…..) In this fanfic, Asuka would be entrusting Unit 2, which she can no longer pilot, to Mari, and would basically be her superior. If you age up Asuka, you can also kind of just gloss over her backstory, because by that point where she came from and whatever issues she had (which were never really addressed to any depth in the movies anyways) would’ve been well behind her.

I honestly like that idea. I think they should have Asuka as a clearly aged up adult. As some had pointed out here, it would make sense for the 14 year time skip. We got to see that towards the end of the final film, and I kind of wish we get more fan art of her grown up. Plus, it would have made the fan service more tolerable for most people. And with most of us grown up, it would make things less weird with seeing a grown woman than a teenager.

What are you waiting for?

Well, I got a few streaming services, and I’m not sure about paying for another one. I’ll see if there’s a 30 day free trial when I decide to watch it. Plus, I’m trying to muster up the courage to watch it. I remember how I was feeling a little uneasy before watching End of Evangelion. And 3.0 did made me feel a little….miffed with how everyone treated Shinji. The last film would be one wild ride, I just need a little time to prepare.


And overall, I’m not sure about Asuka being reduced to being a clone than a normal human being, being artificially created and biologically engineered in a lab with no identity of her own, but rather a carbon copy of someone else. And worse, with no birth parents to ever begin with. And pretty tragic when you think about it, but I guess that was the purpose here.

[Konja7]

And overall, I’m not sure about Asuka being reduced to being a clone than a normal human being, being artificially created and biologically engineered in a lab with no identity of her own, but rather a carbon copy of someone else. And worse, with no birth parents to ever begin with. And pretty tragic when you think about it, but I guess that was the purpose here.

Yeah. The tragic aspect is part of the point. Asuka has a pretty tragic background in NGE too.

I really disagree with the idea that Rebuild try to deshumanize Asuka. Sure, it changes her origins, but Asuka has a really human behaviour (even her feelings of not fitting in with humans are strangely human).

SPOILER: Show

Also, she becomes human and grows to her real age at the end of the movie.

[nerv bae]

Well, I got a few streaming services, and I’m not sure about paying for another one. I’ll see if there’s a 30 day free trial when I decide to watch it. Plus, I’m trying to muster up the courage to watch it. I remember how I was feeling a little uneasy before watching End of Evangelion. And 3.0 did made me feel a little….miffed with how everyone treated Shinji. The last film would be one wild ride, I just need a little time to prepare.

I felt anxious about watching all of the rebuilds for the first time last summer, because all I'd known up to that point was the original series and EoE, and I knew the rebuilds were different somehow but I'd avoided spoilers. But the rebuilds were awesome; all my anxiety melted away. I say just go for it!

My biggest issue with her is the lack of a cohesive character arc. All the other major characters (Shinji, Rei, Misato, Gendo) have a central internal conflict that get addressed and resolved in 3.0+1.0. Shinji learns to take responsibility for his actions, Rei learns to live for herself rather than for others, Misato has to overcome the guilt she feels over her culpability in N3I, Gendo learns that he was kind of a massive prick and probably shouldn’t have done that.

I understand the issue you're expressing, that Asuka doesn't get an arc, and I agree with it general. It doesn't really bother me, though, and I'd like to be able to explain why in literary theory or storycrafting terms but I'm just not equipped to do so. To anyone with a background in those topics: like, when is it okay in fiction for a major character in a work to lack an arc? There must be examples of this being done well in fiction, and terms to describe it. It can't always be a bad thing, right?

[Archer]

@nerv bae
It’s not that Asuka lacks a character arc - she HAS one, it just lacks cohesion and isn’t very fleshed out. I can define all the points that I think they were going for - it’s just that like, none of them worked.

Compare to someone like Mari, who they never even pretended to give a character arc or motivations, or Kaworu, who has vague hints of motivations but lacks an arc. Both work out better IMO because they didn’t try. With Asuka, I feel like they tried and failed, and that makes it stand out very negatively in my head.

when is it okay in fiction for a major character in a work to lack an arc?

…and here lies the main crux of the issue: Asuka is not a main character in the Rebuilds but it seems like Anno&co. felt obligated to treat her like one because she’s Asuka, and thus saw fit to shoehorn in a poor attempt at a character arc when they just did not have the runtime to do it any justice.

As for the more semantically-ambiguous designation of “major character”, it’s totally fine for important supporting characters to be completely static while still exerting a large influence on the main characters. Kaji in NGE is a good example of this, he himself has no character arc to speak of, but he has a huge impact on the main characters (Shinji, Asuka, and Misato) and his death is pretty much the singular event that kicks off everyone else’s inescapable downwards spiral.

In my “age up Asuka” pitch, this is essentially what she would end up being - a very important supporting character who lacks a character arc.

——

Sort of a side tangent, but when someone’s internal conflict is “I’m not happy with my body” and it’s NOT a problem they can solve through concerted effort on their part (e.g. there is literally nothing Asuka could do to make her body grow or to make herself become not-an-Angel), literally the only possible resolution is learning to accept yourself the way you are, because the alternative - having someone come in and fix things for you - isn’t a character arc, it’s wish fulfillment. So really, I think her “arc” was doomed when they decided to focus on that aspect, because the only way to resolve it in a “happy” way is basically just to magic her problem away.

[Axx°N N.]

To anyone with a background in those topics: like, when is it okay in fiction for a major character in a work to lack an arc? There must be examples of this being done well in fiction, and terms to describe it. It can't always be a bad thing, right?

I went to college for creative writing and I'd answer this with mildly waving my hands around. It's subjective, as is much of what we bring to stories, and is complicated from the start by the fact that some disagree even with the notion of subscribing to the legitimacy of storytelling rules.

'Character arc' is itself one of those terms, and a character with no arc is often called a flat arc. Terms can vary, though, and there are quite a few attempts at a universal theory of story structures with huge differences between them, Joseph Campbell being the most famous. I myself like Vonnegut's charts: (https://nu.aeon.co/images/a025e953-32e1 ... -story.jpg).

I remember reading about a director/scriptwriter recently (whose name escapes me) who categorized their films as belonging to one of three modes they work in: ones that focus on a situation (and so doesn't necessarily involve a person changing and hence, no arc), ones that focus on a setting (as in, 'the city is the character'), and those that focus on a lone individual, in which case the arc exists and is the focus; I recall their vocabulary differing and not featuring the term 'flat arc,' as these things are often individual and not rigidly systematized. I've seen many pet systems with different terms.

'Flat arcs' as they're popularly understood are usually seen in supporting characters, and they typically serve to aid the main character's traditional arc, usually by setting some kind of example or bestowing the catalyst to change. Ancillary characters are by definition almost always flat arc characters; some characters exist in the background only to push a button.

I can name Ulysses and Gravity's Rainbow as the most famous instances of a flat arc main character by design, but these are both instances where an experimental technique was used to challenge collective understanding of said tropes and question (or riff) on their inherent meaning; I'm not aware off the top of my head of a work with an arcless main character where it wasn't done as an important part of its philosophical point, though I'm sure there are (I think maybe you could count the unchanging badass heroes of some action movies as being flat).

Intent is important here, as the above examples willfully featured the omission (or ablation) of an arc. Although intent isn't everything, because if you intend for a work to lack a conventional resolution that credo doesn't itself magically make it a well-done narrative. And then you get into the no-mans land of what criteria might or might not exist, anyway, to say whether an avant-garde narrative was successful, if being avant-garde is itself the rejection of the conventional vocabulary of how stories are deemed meaningful. I've experienced many avant-garde narratives that work for me and many that don't, and I can't say what shared vocabulary exists to explain the difference without relying mostly on subjective emotions.

My stance is that it's better to take works ex nihilo, and that comparing a story to another story is less valuable than comparing something to itself, which gets tricky with NTE because it's an iteration of another previous story and seems to, in some cases, depend upon comparisons to fill in information gaps ... or does it?

Regardless, I think Archer makes a good case above for why there seems to have been the intention of an arc, and that it was merely undeveloped. The gap between these two things (vision and execution) is I think responsible for why Asuka as a presence in NTE either didn't click or was a stinker for some viewers. I don't get the sense that Asuka's hastily filled-in backstory or lacking screentime were themselves storytelling tools done to add something essential, they merely seem missing and rushed.

[Konja7]

Compare to someone like Mari, who they never even pretended to give a character arc or motivations, or Kaworu, who has vague hints of motivations but lacks an arc.

Mari is who has vague hints of motivations. Kaworu's motivations are pretty clear, the mysterious and vague is his backstory.

You're right that Kaworu and Mari don't really have character arcs. This isn't just because they are supporting characters, since supporting characters could have character arcs (for example: Rei). Their lack of character arcs works for their role in the story.

when is it okay in fiction for a major character in a work to lack an arc?

…and here lies the main crux of the issue: Asuka is not a main character in the Rebuilds but it seems like Anno&co. felt obligated to treat her like one because she’s Asuka, and thus saw fit to shoehorn in a poor attempt at a character arc when they just did not have the runtime to do it any justice.

I'm pretty sure that there isn't a rule that all major characters need to have a character arc (there are stories with static major characters). Also, the major character in Rebuild (Shinji) has a character arc.

I don't think Anno&Co try to make Asuka a main character. She is still a supporting characters in 3.0+1.0, whose story exists to contrast Shinji.

Asuka's doesn't really have a character arc in 3.0+1.0. In this movie, we see Asuka's problems and conflicts, but this is to understand the situation of the character and her decisions (that isn't really an arc). Also, it explains why the way to help her is making her human and an adult so could have a new start.

[Archer]

I’d argue that Rei is very much a “main character” of the Rebuilds, especially in 3.0+1.0.

Asuka's doesn't really have a character arc in 3.0+1.0. In this movie, we see Asuka's problems and conflicts, but this is to understand the situation of the character and her decisions (that isn't really an arc). Also, it explains why the way to help her is making her human and an adult so could have a new start.

That’s the problem though, that’s something that looks A LOT like a character arc but isn’t complete or cohesive. It sets up an internal conflict with an external resolution. The fact that she HAS that internal conflict at all is what makes her read as an attempt at a “main character” for me, because I’m going to make the bold and unsubstantiated assertion that having a clearly-presented internal conflict that actually gets resolved is a key trait of a “main character” that is rarely present in supporting characters.

w.r.t. Asuka’s story existing to contrast Shinji… I see this stated a lot, and I agree that it’s probably what Anno&co. were GOING for, because based on the dialogue it seems like the movie is talking about Asuka as if she is mature and grown-up (as opposed to Shinji, who isn’t). I just really don’t see it though, because to me it really looks like she HASN’T really grown up and moved on with life. Like, one of the most ridiculous aspects of the movie to me is that someone who I’m apparently supposed to see as mature and grown-up clearly still has some hangups over a guy she knew for a couple of months 14 years ago. This isn’t helped by the fact that she hasn’t aged, which REALLY muddies the waters because it reads like a blatant metaphor that she HASN’T matured.

This in general is one of the biggest issues I have with the Rebuilds… the huge disconnect between the intent Anno&co. wanted to portray, vs. what the actual events imply, such as the movie presuming Shinji’s guilt as a basic part of its premise despite the actual events that play out making his degree of culpability a lot more ambiguous.

[nerv bae]

@nerv bae
It’s not that Asuka lacks a character arc - she HAS one, it just lacks cohesion and isn’t very fleshed out. I can define all the points that I think they were going for - it’s just that like, none of them worked. ...

I went to college for creative writing and I'd answer this with mildly waving my hands around. It's subjective, as is much of what we bring to stories, and is complicated from the start by the fact that some disagree even with the notion of subscribing to the legitimacy of storytelling rules. ...

Thank you both for these explanations, in context of which I can agree that Asuka was done a bit dirty in literary theory or storycrafting terms. Maybe the reason I'm not bothered by this is that I'm just not educated to think in these terms, and as a result I'm blind to these issues and my brain just fills in a lot of what's missing on its own. Like, I can, and do, actively imagine the "missing" aspects of the arc and once that's complete I find the result satisfying! The joys of being uneducated ...

[Konja7]

w.r.t. Asuka’s story existing to contrast Shinji… I see this stated a lot, and I agree that it’s probably what Anno&co. were GOING for, because based on the dialogue it seems like the movie is talking about Asuka as if she is mature and grown-up (as opposed to Shinji, who isn’t). I just really don’t see it though, because to me it really looks like she HASN’T really grown up and moved on with life. Like, one of the most ridiculous aspects of the movie to me is that someone who I’m apparently supposed to see as mature and grown-up clearly still has some hangups over a guy she knew for a couple of months 14 years ago. This isn’t helped by the fact that she hasn’t aged, which REALLY muddies the waters because it reads like a blatant metaphor that she HASN’T matured.

I don't feel Asuka has matured so much either. I feel she is more mature than Shinji, but 3.0+1.0 still implies that Asuka hasn't totally grown up (and she hasn't move on with life).

I say she is a contrast with Shinji, because they way Asuka has even more problems to fit in Village-3 than Shinji.