"Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

[FelipeFritschF]

Some fans are debating whether Asuka meets the first Shikinami clone of the series in Eva 13, or if that's Sohryu from NGE. Also applies to the beach scene. This Japanese article argues for the former. Until we get a specific camrip of the absorption scene, let us consider it. It argues that Shikinami is a "fake" Asuka.

https://note.com/nagareboshi0111/n/nbea25dbdedd3#RdsgF

[ChaddyManPrime]

Hmmmm

I mean you could work a back story where Kyoko is successful in getting Asuka to kill herself alongside her and then some scientist with the last name of Shikinami uses the corpse's DNA to make a clone.

But Shikinami adult and otherwise doesn't look exactly like Soryu and it would be weird for her to be off model.

But shit that's just harsh. Like jesus, what if like they were rebooted after EoE but they were making the relationship work? Having it function then Shinji just disappears one day for 14 years.

[Heaven Piercing Man]

Those sequelists just can't quit, don't ya think?

[Pen-Pen02]

The theories in that article make some sense, but I still feel too much loose ends ... In the end, no one can know where Sohryu really left off and considering Shikinami a possible direct clone of her does not convince me too much ... (Sohryu has a body more proportioned and much redder hair, while Shikinami has a slimmer body and hair a little brown, although Rei as a clone of Yui has light blue hair, but this is because she has a certain angelic nature and part of Lilith in her, but and Shikinami? ... unless they have cloned Sohryu's daughter who is also named after her )

Anyway, it is interesting to know the point of view of the person who has written this article and who tries to make sense of this whole thing about the Shikinami clones.

However, there is something interesting that I think I have understood from this article and that refers to Asuka from the beach at the end of the Rebuild movie and that is that Asuka here is not necessarily Sohryu but Shikinami with a Shinji who, finally "is not Shinji" in this scenario, but a Shinji as a "concept"of an individual named "Shinji" in all the EVA stories ... So if this is how it's supposed to be, then it makes some sense, because Asuka "original" from the beach had his arm bandaged and his eye patched, while Shinji from that place wore the school uniform and not the plugsuit, so both would become a "concept" of Asuka and Shinji of all lines historical that could have been drawn into the world of EVA.

So in itself, the Rebuild movie had a good ending for Shikinami overall, as this "fake" or clone Asuka has a chance to live a new life within the EVA universe just like Rei Q did in her time. In this case Asuka could have the chance to perhaps stay with Kensuke, with other new people or definitely alone. Unfortunately, we didn't get to know what happened to the "real" Asuka in the end and it only remains to assume that she is still on EoE's red beach ... next to Shinji? We don't know ... If this is the way it is, is there a certainty that this Shinji from the Rebuild is the "original Shinji" of the series or is it another type of being, I am not referring to a clone of himself, but to a more "higher" and timeless being, such as Kaworu? If Shinji has a memory of the many times he met Kaworu, perhaps he already has a supreme existence, beyond the known and with the ability to travel to as many historical lines as he wishes and as many times as he wants ... Could it be that Shinji he has a category of "God", it is not known since when and now, tired of that "perpetuity" of repeating history with the same characters, he decides to break his cycle and now flee from that world with Mari? It's hard to know anything as long as you only have the spoilers and haven't seen the movie, but these details leave a lot to think about ...

[UrsusArctos]

Some fans are debating whether Asuka meets the first Shikinami clone of the series in Eva 13, or if that's Sohryu from NGE. <snip> Until we get a specific camrip of the absorption scene, let us consider it. It argues that Shikinami is a "fake" Asuka.

For whatever it's worth, calling Shikinami a "fake" Asuka has been happening since we got the 2.0 poster that revealed the new name.

And speaking as someone who is far more sympathetic to Soryu (with her horrific past) than to Shiki, I've long since come to accept that Shikinami is an entirely different character with a different point to make, and my personal take is that trying to make Shikinami a "fake" compared to her Soryu "original" is as fruitless now, if not substantially more so, than it was back in 2009.

[LazyPOS]

Different continuity, different Asuka. Neither Sohryu nor Kyoko are ever mentioned. You can headcanon whatever you want into NTE, but it's no more valid than those "Shinji and Asuka had sex" theories. Who is the original Asuka template in NTE is no more important than who was original Kaworu template in NGE (if Kaworu even is a clone of someone).
From everything I read and seen about Shin, it seems that all references to NGE in Rebuilds are just nods to the original series, and not direct connections. Finishing Sohryu's story in NTE would cheapen the ending of EoE (for me at least).

For whatever it's worth, calling Shikinami a "fake" Asuka has been happening since we got the 2.0 poster that revealed the new name.

I thought that all 3 of them were clones because of their surnames ending in "-nami". That was my impression after I started watching Q

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

On my initial watch I just assumed it was a Shikinami, one of them being held back/held in reserve. I think it's less important who's Shikinami and who's Soryu than it matters which one is in this film. It's never explicitly stated that NTE is somehow picking up where NGE left off, only that there are lots of ways to tell this story and some of them can be told before others.

[C.T.1290]

Shit, this whole Asuka being a clone thing is just mind blowing. All this time and we didn’t know until now.

I this a bit upsetting, both for Asuka fans and Shikinami herself. Some of the fanboys must have been shocked (like how I was) at the fact that the Asuka they all know and love is a literal clone, a product of science. This goes to say that she really isn’t Asuka, but a copy.

As for Asuka herself; being created without any parents but grown in a lab experiment, and living her life as a shadow for the sole purpose of having Gendo achieve instrumentality. I could just imagine that life being hard for her, not being entirely human or no identity for her to call her own.

[Raikyu]

Now I've just remembered one thing. Her full name in NTE is Asuka Shikinami Langley. She is named "Shikinami" because she is a clone of the Shikinami Series. But does the "Langley" surname have any particular meaning? At first thought, maybe to differentiate all the Shikinamis by name. But if you think more about it, different first names would be enough. So why three names? Maybe this is an irrelevant detail, but seems something that Anno would give an explanation.

I have this wild theory that every Shikinami has a different genetic donor, and in the case of Asuka, that person could be the NTE version of Dr. Langley. But the Shikinamis only receive few genes from these donors and that's why their appearance is virtually the same. Well, I haven't seen the movie, but I'm assuming that they look the same. When Asuka said that she does not knew her father, she could be referring to her donor. But like I said, this is a wild guess and I won't be surprised if this is just pure speculation/head canon.

[ChaddyManPrime]

God I'd like Anno to clarify if it's Sohryu in the machine or not. Especially if it's original Sohryu, like my god what horrible fate for her. Just a fragmented soul like Lilith. Like did they make a child sacrifice to the Adam? A machine powered by a forsaken child.

And it makes me curious about how the original timeline fell apart, like at what point did Adam decide to reboot the universe? Were Shinji and Asuka successful together to the point of Kaworu being unable to cope with the fact Shinji didn't need him for happiness? Did the timeline end with them dying of old age? One of them killing the other? So many questions!

@Fel
I kinda want it to be sorta just so her absence is explained story wise, I know meta of them not wanting her in the film but that needs to explained story wise.

[FelipeFritschF]

If it helps you any, Miyamura is convinced it's just the original Shikinami. The movie obviously wants you to think about it, though.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I think it's pointless to focus on the whole Soryu/Shikinami thing. The films don't explicitly "loop" the way the name of loop theory implies, more like they exist in parallel and some characters are able to become aware of this. Kaworu may be a special case in that he can be aware of events that have happened previously, but I don't think spending time wondering if there's secretly a Soryu wandering around is going to be productive.

Adam rebooting a universe, an actual timeline loop... these seem less plausible than things taking place in parallel and some characters being aware of it.

[ChaddyManPrime]

^
See, I read that Kaworu was the cause of the resets.

[Xiel]

And it makes me curious about how the original timeline fell apart, like at what point did Adam decide to reboot the universe?

Kaworu said Instrumentality is the "origin of the cycle" in this movie (what people translate as loop, afaik it's the same word Homura used in Madoka so has a similar connotation). Instrumentality is always controlled by your troublesome Ikari men, Shinji or Gendo (latter seems to be unusual). The "cycle" (metaphorical or literally) is Shinji's doing or is related to him even if he's not in control, consciously. Because Eva story revolves around Shinji. It can only end if Shinji changes, while the other three children are trapped in their roles because the story has them resolve around Shinji as well. Even with different circumstances, they repeat them in a tragic succession in NTE.

Like Soryu before her, Shikinami still ended up devoured before the last climax. To save Shinji, Kaworu lost his head in Dogma. The Rei that Shinji knew was removed from the story after a cruel battle and replaced by another. You can't fully appreciate the movie without watching the old series or End of Eva. Because Shinji rejects the Instrumentality made to save him at the expense of everyone to make him feel better like in NGE and EOE, to be the one who reaches out and helps Asuka, Kaworu, and Rei resolve their issues and break free from Eva for good.

A lot of Japanese fans desire for the "Asukas" to merge in that scene of Eva 13 because they consider Rebuild is as a sequel and the definite ending to all Eva, maybe not a direct sequel (you can argue this point I'm sure), but is the spiritual sequel that offers the resolution to Evangelion in a meta-series sense as a whole. It has the closure of Evangelion as a franchise. That's why fans are bitter that Shikinami got saved, but Soryu wasn't. And why there are articles like the one linked speculating this connection, even if Soryu isn't brought up at all in Weva. The problem wouldn't appear if they hadn't stressed they were separate characters while they never did the same with other characters, so feels like oddly specific and left out.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Is anyone arguing that with the other characters, though? It seems obvious to me that NTE Shinji, Misato, Rei, Gendo, Fuyutsuki, Toji, Hikari... I could go on, but it seems obvious to me that all these characters are separate from their NGE counterparts. We haven't tried to conflate their experiences or say that they're somehow built on the characters who came before them. I don't think Asuka is any different.

The only character I'm inclined to grant knowledge of parallel universe knowledge to is Kaworu, and even what he knows and what he doesn't is going to be in question until we can rewatch segments of the film over and over again.

[Xiel]

The only old character Anno has called a "new character" cast has been Shikinami, right? If my memory doesn't fail me from Break CRC. He also specifically told Miyamura to play her as a different character from NGE Asuka, very different from the instructions to the other VAs. Not that her character changed due to some new experiences, but to consider her completely separated. To Gendo seiyuu, for example, Anno told him Shin Eva was the conclusion of his character that began in the old tv series or something along those lines. That implies Gendo isn't a new character or version, but a continuation of NGE Gendo. And Megumi Hayashibara was told there's just one Rei Ayanami, she's not playing a different character.

Kaworu remembered that, but so did Shinji in the end as well. He said he met Kaworu many times here (the beach). Shinji's the same character too, that's the point of meeting again thanks to the Book of Life. From a meta-perspective, Shinji necessarily has to be the same, since he's the focus of the cycle and Eva is his story. The same character who finally has broken out of the story and successfully finishes it. Now we can argue Kaworu is the same because he's the "Other Shinji" as Anno once called him, making him the other exception in a Shinji-centric narrative but this doesn't explain what he told Gendo va...... What I'm saying is that other characters' situations (other than Shinji, Kaworu, Gendo and Rei) can be ambiguous and debatable but fans can breathe and say "Oh I'm happy Misato and Kaji have a child even if they died, and succeeded." But poor Asuka sticks out because she's the only one with the "new/different character" distinction explicitly made by the staff. That's why there's so many articles and debate if the original is NGE Asuka and if she and Shikinami fused in Eva 13, because fans' desire to give their favorite a peaceful closure in the Eva farewell. I'm not necessarily agreeing with that, but I can see why it leaves a sour taste in the mouth she's the only one potentially left out for no reason, to those who see NTE as the final answer to Eva. I've read several twitter messages heartbroken with the "In the end, Sohryu was the only one left alone" or "She was the only one who couldn't be saved from Eva." This angle is just their way to hope she was able to leave Eva too.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

We have a choice how literally we want to take advice given to VAs regarding how they play their characters with regard to the character being "the same" or "different". Given Asuka's wildly different background in NTE as opposed to NGE, it would make sense to tell her to play the character differently-- in the same way, the level of explicit closure we get to Gendo's narrative arc would mean his VA could draw on any of the sentiment he remembered from the original series and use it to elevate his performance.

Certainly a lot of the characters are the same heading into Jo, but several are different heading into Ha, and everyone has a new narrative heading into Q and Shin. It requires less speculation on our part to assume that meta instructions given to VAs are just that, meta instructions, rather than to see them as literally applied to the characters themselves.

I don't want to talk too much about the 'book of life' because I don't fully understand it, and maybe that means that there really are characters who are 'the same', but until I feel I have a handle on it other than the rumors I've heard flying around of what it might mean, I'll shy away from the more explicit "NTE is a direct sequel" theories.

I don't see Asuka and Shinji's end in EoE as being affected by Shin. I think Shin certainly hearkens back to the material that came before it, but I don't think it changes or alters it.

[bogusman]

I think one of the reason the only character who has a different name in NTE is only Asuka (am i right?) is that anno tries to separate Soryu from NTE. So any connection between soryu and shikinami is just a homage.

[Xiel]

You can choose to ignore the interviews and staff statements, but it's explicitly stated by Shinji in Shin Eva that he remembers meeting Kaworu on the headless angel lake scene "many times before." So Shinji is in a similar situation to Kaworu. The rest are indeed debatable. That's why I brought up the possibility that due to Eva being Shinji's story, Shinji is the same always. Kaworu is too because he's "another Shinji who appears." Kaworu remembered before because he had supernatural powers, as soon as Shinji has them too, he too remembers as well.

Also, I'm not actually making this clarification for those who see EoE separate from the new movies, but pointing out that the existence of so many articles and theories about Original Shikinami as Sohryu is mostly born from the ones who do see Shin Eva as the definite end of all Evangelion, not just NTE, but affecting everything including NGE and EoE as well. I'm not saying I agree with it or not. This theory is pushed mostly by the Asuka fans who saw it that way because they feel slighted Soryu was given an ending without salvation, left behind in Eva, while Shikinami is saved. All because of the emphasis they are completely separate characters. Even if there's not a single mention of Soryu in NTE so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I hope that clarifies it.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I'll have to spend some time before I can understand that. Calling NGE Asuka as the only person who wasn't "saved" from Eva feels a bit odd. In the end of the series, Shinji's the only one who really gets a happy ending. In EoE, arguably humanity gets a happy ending where they can choose what they want, and Shinji and Asuka are both as messed up as they'll ever be (though Shinji arguably gets a crumb of resolution.)

If people are suggesting that NTE saves everyone except NGE Asuka, does that mean they're somehow arguing that all the characters from NGE have traveled forward into this continuum, and that any resolution or lack thereof from the series has been wiped out? I guess that's one way to look at things, but to me it feels pointless. If I did believe it, I can see how it would frustrate people that Asuka didn't get to come along for the ride, but I don't see the films as an authoritative must-watch sequel to NGE. If we want to pull from the text of the films, look at all the coffins on the moon-- this has happened before and it'll happen again, and this is just the slice of things we get to see.

Looking at the lines about the Book of Life, it seems to be mentioned twice: once when Kaworu says that Shinji's name is written in it and that's why they've met over and over again, and a second time in a discussion between Kaworu and Kaji. Kaworu jokes that he'll only die once the universe undergoes vacuum decay, describing himself stuck in a loop, acting out the same role over and over again forever. If Shinji wanted to live in a world where instrumentality had taken place, then he would never grow or change, and so his name was written in the book of life-- so Kaworu and Kaji say. The Book of Life does canonically (in the Tanakh, anyway) enumerate people who will receive eternal life, but what that means in this context is probably up for debate. To what extent Shinji is able to access these memories is a bit of a mystery as well. Is it only during instrumentality when he can access past memories? This would make sense, also considering that he gets some sort of access to Kaworu's person during instrumentality as well.

But all of this feels to me like it addresses Evangelion across a far broader spectrum than just the TV series we know and this new set of films. Looking at NTE as the official end to all Evangelion will ever be, erasing the narratives of the characters in every other telling of the story, feels awfully depressing. Looking at NGE Asuka as "left behind" and NTE Asuka "getting saved" while ignoring all the other differences everyone else experiences in each iteration of Evangelion's story feels reductive.