Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Brainman » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:36 am

Well I don't really criticize Rei so much in particular. She didn't do anything wrong actually. It's more to do with how things progress around her in the movie. Like it all feels...guided. Like it doesn't progress naturally. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else but me. It's like I can more clearly see the strings this time around and it's less impressive for it.

Soryu's standoffish behavior came from a place of hate. Shikinami's is more about awkwardness. She doesn't resent people, she just doesn't know how to connect with them. Her arc in this film is like Unit-01's first step -- her inexperience causes her to fall down and be embarrassed.


Whether or not you find Shikinami to be snoresville (I do) compared to classic Asuka is your own business really. What I think vexes us especially though is that you have the other characters that are kinda-sorta close enough to their old selves. You got new Rei who is basically Rei + commitment. New Shinji is kind of a default Shinji + motivation. But then Asuka is....Shikinami. It's like we got stepped over. So now if this Asuka goes and makes her journey it's like old Asuka gets to hang out in the vacuum.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:12 pm

View Original PostChroma wrote:on a semi-related note (related to our wait for 3.0 anyway), how long does it usually take for movies to go to DVD/Blu-ray in Japan? Or at least, how long did it take for 1.11 and 2.22 to come out after the movies had been in the theater?


http://wiki.evageeks.org/Evangelion_1.0:_You_Are_(Not)_Alone

Theatrical Release September 1, 2007 (Japan)
Video Release Date 1.01: April 25, 2008 | 1.11: May 27, 2009

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Evangelion_2.0:_You_Can_(Not)_Advance

Theatrical Release June 27, 2009 (Japan)
Video Release Date 2.22: May 26, 2010

________

And I'm pretty sure one of the CRC Interviews mentioned that Mari's only meant to be introduced in 2.xx, 3.0 is when we'll get more about her character.
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Postby Brainman » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:24 pm

I think that's a bit extreme. The differences in this Asuka, like the differences in the other characters, are all minutiae. I mean, she's still recognizably Asuka -- brash, self-aggrandizing, etc. etc. She's still performed the same way (no matter what Miyamura says). In any event, I'm not sure why you'd want to rehash Soryu's arc anyway. It's been done.


Once again, rehashing wouldn't solve anything. The reason I even bring up the old version is to cast light on the comparative overall weakness of the new edition. And the reason I brought up Shikinami specifically is because out of all of them, she is the most heavily edited. The changes in her character and her role in the story are the most glaring. She's something that's obvious and sticks out, and is therefore always going to act as a lightning rod in these kind of discussions. It can't be helped.

It's like they thought they didn't have enough time to make classic Asuka into someone sympathetic in the time frame they had, so they had to make her fluffier from the onset. I'm not necessarily saying that's definitely the case or not. But that's how I kind of identify with it. It could be that once she comes out in 3.0 she's like a crazy person, smiling on the outside but in battle starts tearing the wings off angels and torturing her prey. That'd be neat. Then Misato feels guilty and tries to talk her back down. MAYBE BUT WHO KNOWS?

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Postby Chroma » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:25 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:http://wiki.evageeks.org/Evangelion_1.0:_You_Are_(Not)_Alone

Theatrical Release September 1, 2007 (Japan)
Video Release Date 1.01: April 25, 2008 | 1.11: May 27, 2009

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Evangelion_2.0:_You_Can_(Not)_Advance

Theatrical Release June 27, 2009 (Japan)
Video Release Date 2.22: May 26, 2010


7/8 months for 1.0-1.11
11 months for 2.22

:shinchair:

Brainman wrote: It could be that once she comes out in 3.0 she's like a crazy person, smiling on the outside but in battle starts tearing the wings off angels and torturing her prey. That'd be neat. Then Misato feels guilty and tries to talk her back down. MAYBE BUT WHO KNOWS?

This is what I was guessing too. That smile at the 3.0 preview doesn't look totally...sane, and I'd bet that there's going to be some sort of mental contamination problem.
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Postby Brainman » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:37 pm

This is what I was guessing too. That smile at the 3.0 preview doesn't look totally...sane, and I'd bet that there's going to be some sort of mental contamination problem.



I'm just interested in stories and scenarios that shift your sympathies back and forth. Like the angel is roaring through town, knocking over everything and killing folks. Then Asuka starts to win and everyone is like "Yeah, fuck that guy! Get him!" But then when it's against the ropes she starts pulling pieces off slowly and torturing it, making everyone switch to "Oh...hun. Pull it back, sweetheart, that's good. No, just. Just finish it off now. Ah hell, this isn't right..." And it's just screaming and dying and no one can do anything about it. It'd be cool to see a film where you actually sympathize with the weird space creature thing that's here to kill us.

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Postby Chroma » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:39 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote:I'm just interested in stories and scenarios that shift your sympathies back and forth. Like the angel is roaring through town, knocking over everything and killing folks. Then Asuka starts to win and everyone is like "Yeah, fuck that guy! Get him!" But then when it's against the ropes she starts pulling pieces off slowly and torturing it, making everyone switch to "Oh...hun. Pull it back, sweetheart, that's good. No, just. Just finish it off now. Ah hell, this isn't right..." And it's just screaming and dying and no one can do anything about it. It'd be cool to see a film where you actually sympathize with the weird space creature thing that's here to kill us.


Kinda like when Unit-01 was eating Zeruel in NGE? Or more as in, like, torturing it? Either way, I like the idea. And the sympathy thing too.
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Postby Brainman » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:44 pm

View Original PostChroma wrote:Kinda like when Unit-01 was eating Zeruel in NGE? Or more as in, like, torturing it? Either way, I like the idea. And the sympathy thing too.


Oh, I mean, deliberate torture. Like she's meaning to cause it pain. The idea I have is she vents and lays it all on her target. Like she pulls off it's wings, stomps on its head, kicks its teeth out, stabs it with a spear and twists it around. Like she's getting back at everything by way of killing this angel. But the whole time, Misato is seeing this and is like "What have we done to you?" And when the thing finally dies everyone is clapping and she's thinking "How can you clap at that!? We've turned her into a monster!"

And part of the movie is about her trying to get Asuka back down to earth.

That'd be my pitch anyhow...

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Postby Chroma » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:47 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Oh, I mean, deliberate torture. Like she's meaning to cause it pain. The idea I have is she vents and lays it all on her target. Like she pulls off it's wings, stomps on its head, kicks its teeth out, stabs it with a spear and twists it around. Like she's getting back at everything by way of killing this angel. But the whole time, Misato is seeing this and is like "What have we done to you?" And when the thing finally dies everyone is clapping and she's thinking "How can you clap at that!? We've turned her into a monster!"

And part of the movie is about her trying to get Asuka back down to earth.

That'd be my pitch anyhow...


Not bad, not bad. I'd watch it.
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Postby SaltyJoe » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:58 pm

@Freaky:
Eh, but still, having Shinji be so emotionally guarded and fragile in a noticably more friendly environment without any real social challenges just creates a cognitive dissonance in my mind. I don't know what i would think about this had i never watched NGE, though.

View Original PostBrainman wrote:That'd be my pitch anyhow...

Maybe we should hold a scritpwriting contest to pass the time. Everyone writes their own version of Q, they get timestamped and stored by some third party, and once the film is released, we can take them out, so every author can point out why their version would have been better. Or maybe not.
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Postby Brainman » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:04 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:@Freaky:Maybe we should hold a scritpwriting contest to pass the time. Everyone writes their own version of Q, they get timestamped and stored by some third party, and once the film is released, we can take them out, so every author can point out why their version would have been better. Or maybe not.


I've thought about writing a full script. I have a rough idea for it anyhow. It's just a matter of doing it, really.

The biggest problem I have so far is what to do about the Rei clones. I get to that part and I'm like "uh...." Like I thought maybe they're 'components' that didn't get utilized for the dummy system because the UN pulls the plug on the project. I don't know. What would that have to do with anything?

But yeah, I think we all could write something considering the down time we might still face.

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Postby Chroma » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:22 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Maybe we should hold a scritpwriting contest to pass the time. Everyone writes their own version of Q, they get timestamped and stored by some third party, and once the film is released, we can take them out, so every author can point out why their version would have been better. Or maybe not.


I wouldn't mind this, but can like, summaries suffice instead of a full blown script? I doubt I could write the speech.

Still, I think this would be a pretty cool thing to do.

As for the Rei clones....

This is just a theory, but I don't think they actually exist. Rei and Mari seem to be somewhere weird in the preview. And Rei's in her AU clothes. And Mari is seen taking her glasses off, even though she was supposed to be blind without them.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:47 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote:@FreakyFilmFan4ever

It doesn't fly because I am expected to believe Asuka and Shinji living together is matter of military strategy. But they don't train in an observable capacity. It's more of an after school special approach. Their communication skills are bad, so they have to live *record scratch* UNDER THE SAME ROOF!

But that's exactly how that issue was resolved in NGE, a situation which you seemed to praise earlier. You can't praise a fictitious situation as literary gold when the goals of the characters are reached and jeer at another as literary garbage when the characters fail to reach those goals, especially when those are the only differences between the scripts.

@Script idea: :lol: I couldn't do that. It would take my enjoyment out of seeing the movie. After all, simply because I wouldn't write or direct a scene a certain way doesn't necessarily mean it's "bad". It just means that I would have done it differently, and really wouldn't only serve to highlight the differences between my writing styles and Anno's writing styles. It's like asking what Raiders of the Lost Ark would be like if Richard Donner had directed it instead. I don't know if it would be worse or better than Spielberg's work in the film, but it would most certainly be different.

Basically, if I write my own script, I'm also making my own movie apart from Anno's instincts or creative inspirations. Shinji's name would be "Edward" and both Asuka and Rei would be formulated into one character named "Renee". Then I would rework the entire plot and surrounding characters to make it work around completely different ideas and character foundations. It may or may not involve robots instead of the concept behind "Evas". It may or may not involve the concept behind "Angels". It will not look like a work of Anno.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:28 pm

さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Postby Rocky Raccoon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:56 pm

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Last edited by Rocky Raccoon on Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Alaska Slim » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:59 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:And I like how the level of reading accomplished by NME haters only amounts to fanfics

1. I don't hate Rebuild.

2. I haven't even read a fan fic in 4 years.

And the things I'm referencing, the state of the Evas, the inclusion of a new pilot, the increased involvement of the U.N., are things rather organic to Evangelion itself.

For things like the "Child from the future" angle, "OMG, Sailor Moon", yes, that has happened before, it’s trope you can trace, and I meant it in jest.

But even to the former I’m not saying Khara couldn't have come to these changes on their own, only that I'm being surprised time and again of how I look at just small group of fics I read 4 or more years ago, and suddenly see their details becoming canon.


What do I think this really means? That people who took an honest look at the story, as Hideaki Anno did, would see there's only so much you can change to the premise before you wreck the narrative, and instead opted for changes that otherwise could of happened anyway.

E.g. want to include a new pilot? Alright, then they're likely going to need a new Eva, but how can you do that if these things are so hard to produce, and it's been stated some Evas were scrapped to make the MP series?

By making a hodge-podge one of spare parts. It's state will likely lead to it being destroyed, and the “new” pilot will end up taking someone else's Eva along the way.

Rebuild went through this line of thinking, and as fate would have it, so did EVA-R, because the writers of both put careful thought into the conditions of a world that already existed.

They aren't so much creating, as re-arranging what is already there, and some of the best fan fics, the ones I tend to remember, are those which did just that.


View Original PostSephizim wrote:Nothing they could do at this point would upset me. Seriously.

Ditto.

What I wanted, in principle, for Rebuild to be was a work that could truly compliment NGE, it would take the original characters, give them their "victory" over whatever plot-convenient foe, then go onto show that, even though that happened, they're still suffering.

Shinji is still absorbed in his own world, unwilling to trust other, Asuka is still hurting from being alone, and unwilling to put herself in a truly vulnerable state to fix that, and Rei, if she's still alive, is left with little impulse to actually live life.

Without the intervention that Instrumentality provided, these characters would still suffer, thus showing what happened in NGE and EoE was justified, that merely just giving them their day in the sun, where Shinji went hidden baddass at just the right moment, is not enough.

However, we don't have the original cast, so it's clear that isn't happening.

I suppose Hideaki Anno could be taking this one step further saying "Okay, they win, and the characters are somewhat better adjusted, and even then, they're still suffering! Get it yet?!?"

However, that seems a little too subtle, even for him.

Regardless, I' am invested in how Rebuild turns out, it's still Evangelion, and if say, a happy ending is planned for these characters, I wouldn't mind seeing it, and if it's just the same as NGE from a newish angle, that'd be fine too.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:52 am

@Alaska: That would suggest that all fan-fics re-tell stories in more positive lights, or even tell stories within the same continuity. Wolverine Asuka begs to differ.

No, no. NME has everything found in more positive story-telling (so far... but that last scene in 2.22 seems to foreshadow all sorts of scary), but has none of the elements that define it as reminiscent of fan fiction. (Except only in the way that all good fiction, fan-created or otherwise, is made up of the same basic elements found within all literature.)

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:57 pm

NME has everything found in more positive story-telling


You mean like showing instead of telling? Oh wait, the entire Asuka problem.

but has none of the elements that define it as reminiscent of fan fiction.


Mari is a brand new character specifically for this new continuity meant to "destroy" old Eva and throw a wrench into the gears, and it's quite possible she could end up being a Mary Sue. Even if she's not, the very concept of what she is meant to be is quite fan-fictiony.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:17 am

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:You mean like showing instead of telling? Oh wait, the entire Asuka problem.

I don't know how "positive" translates into "entirely visual". "Positive" usually translates into "optimistic," "happy," "emotionally brighter," ect.

But if i'm supposed to address that point: It's not like the original NGE wasn't extremely expository in its dialogue at times. Any time Anno thought the audience might have forgotten something, it was time for Asuka to run out of a hot bath and scream common character traits of Shinji and Misato at the top of her lungs. Or have Hikari give off some sort of exposition about her sudden feelings for Toji. Or have Ritsuko explain every single little detail, somehow without ever explaining the plot. Or how, despite it being brought up so much, no one ever really sees Misato's father. In fact, he only exists through expository dialogue. (No, wait! We see his hand. And his back. But that's really about it.)

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Mari is a brand new character specifically for this new continuity meant to "destroy" old Eva and throw a wrench into the gears, and it's quite possible she could end up being a Mary Sue. Even if she's not, the very concept of what she is meant to be is quite fan-fictiony.

I don't know where this whole "Mary Sue" thing comes from, especially since despite all of her accomplishments, Mari yet to actually win at anything. (Something that would presumably be a must for a "Mary Sue" character, especially seeing as how fans of Evangelion might want a character to end in a positive state for once.) I personally find this as people finding tropes that rhyme with the name of the character in some way rather than finding tropes that fit the character exactly.

I've always seen the character as presented so far to be a mix between elements of the "Helen" stage of Carl Jung's "anima" archetype married with possible "trickster" agendas. But since some of those archetypes don't appear on TVtropes' list, I doubt anyone really knows of their existence. Especially most of those who write fan fictions.

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Postby Alaska Slim » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:43 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:That would suggest that all fan-fics re-tell stories in more positive lights, or even tell stories within the same continuity.

Except I was referring to fan fics that work specifically within the bounds the original narrative set.

Not talking about crossovers, or high(er) concept attempts, or shameless self-inserts, but those rare few that looked at the story constructively, and asked "What can I do without screwing everything royally up?".

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:but has none of the elements that define it as reminiscent of fan fiction.

Mari was a name thrown around for years in the Evangelion fanon. Like the term for the NERV staff (bridge bunnies), it was something widely used and recognized.

Whether by accident or design, it's use in Rebuild is reminiscent of fan fiction.

And as explained above, Rebuild's approach story-wise is something many fics have already taken. It is not merely evocative of "good literature", there are other ways the story could have come about that would have been just as good if not better.

Making a sequel that takes place several 100s or 1,000s of years into the future, a prequel covering 2nd Impact and the wars that followed, a different setting with completely new characters, a side story covering the development of the Eva series or EVA-04/03 or Kaworu's life etc.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:51 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:Making a sequel that takes place several 100s or 1,000s of years into the future, a prequel covering 2nd Impact and the wars that followed, a different setting with completely new characters, a side story covering the development of the Eva series or EVA-04/03 or Kaworu's life etc.


For whatever it's worth (M/Bochan Bird was a trustworthy source, he translated the Manga Stages and other things for quite some time on EML), it was apparently roughly planned out that Rebuild was going to include a prequel story about the Eva's development and so on: viewtopic.php?p=453720#453720 (And according to Tsurumaki at a U.S. Con, Anno had plans for an Eva remake as early as 2003).

And I admit, it is an eerie coincidence that the name "Mari" is used for the new character when English fanfic (no idea about Japanese) used that as a fanon name for Toji's little sister.
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