Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:27 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:It's not too hard to think that something might be wrong with this chick. She has, at the very least, some ulterior motive. That motive may be noble. Or it might make her a jerk.


Her treatment of Shinji leads me to believe we're not supposed to come to that conclusion. This doesn't come through in the English dub, which makes her out to be a bit of a jerkass, but in the Japanese dub she's quite sympathetic toward Shinji's decision. Similarly, her apology to Unit 02 for activating the beast mode doesn't quite fit with a villainous type.

And Eva doesn't really do villainous anyway, SEELE notwithstanding.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

stickmangrit
Embryo
Age: 33
Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 09, 2011
Gender: Male

yet another n00b wandering into the fray...

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby stickmangrit » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:17 pm

i'll go ahead and say that i've only skimmed this thread so far(and haven't even glanced at the behemoth that preceded it), so i apologize if i'm going over ground that's already been tread. in any case, here's my two cents regarding folks complaining about the characterization thus far in Rebuild:

WE ARE ONLY AT EPISODE 12 FOLKS.

remember where we were at this point in Eva Classic? the show had only just started deviating from the happy-fun-super-good-time-love-triangle-teenage-comedy-with-robots vibe it started out with. and why did it start out that way? to lull the average anime viewer into a false sense of security.

i propose that Ano's doing the exact same thing with Rebuild, only now he's changed targets. now he's doing it to Eva fans. consider the small but incredibly significant changes in 1.0 and the countless visual references to EOE peppered throughout 2.0. everything we've seen up until now is setup for the break from classic, and as of the end of 2.0 we are officially off the rails. i fully expect 3.0(or at least half of it) to slow down considerably and start establishing plot and characters before we go headlong into who-knows-what with 4.0.
I'M SIGNIFICANT ... screamed the dust speck.

Reichu
Death True True
Death True True
User avatar
Posts: 23769
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Starship Eva
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: yet another n00b wandering into the fray...

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:37 pm

View Original Poststickmangrit wrote:WE ARE ONLY AT EPISODE 12 FOLKS.

We're technically at episode 19, with shades of 22, 23, and EoE. Well, by the time the movie is over.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
Father Brother Lover Mother (AO3, FF.net)
The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!

stickmangrit
Embryo
Age: 33
Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 09, 2011
Gender: Male

Re: yet another n00b wandering into the fray...

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby stickmangrit » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:40 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:We're technically at episode 19, with shades of 22, 23, and EoE. Well, by the time the movie is over.


fair enough. the better thing to say there would likely be "we're only halfway through."
I'M SIGNIFICANT ... screamed the dust speck.

Alaska Slim
Frigus Ignoramus
Frigus Ignoramus
User avatar
Posts: 4909
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Location: The Land Up Over
Gender: Male

Whose the n00b? B/

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Alaska Slim » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:30 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Here's an idea: what if the audience isn't supposed to be endeared towards her? Ev

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL?

You misunderstood my meaning, I'm saying there's nothing of substance to her, she just exists. She all flash, with no real staying power. Being "evil" doesn't preclude the possibility of being given a sympathetic background or having more than one dimension to her character.

View Original Poststickmangrit wrote:fair enough. the better thing to say there would likely be "we're only halfway through."

More than that I'm afraid, the next two films, from what's been planned, will not be as long as the first two.

Further, it's a pretty good assumption one or both will be dominated by a 3rd impact-esce sequence, where time itself gets all the more "relative".

When it occurs, the story will just come to a halt. If we assume this will cover, say, only one of the films, then it means we have less than 1/4 of the story left to see.

Regardless, the halfway point has already been crossed.
"It's all fun and games till one of you gets my foot up your ass." - FofR, TrivialBeing.net Webmaster

"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute

Warren Peace
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 89
Posts: 1737
Joined: May 28, 2010

Re: Whose the n00b? B/

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Warren Peace » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:14 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:More than that I'm afraid, the next two films, from what's been planned, will not be as long as the first two.


What do you base that on? The only information we have on the number of films was what was announced at the beginning. Obviously, none of that applies anymore (three "recap" films and then a "new" one). As far as I can tell, the two 45-minute installments as a single film idea has never been talked about by Khara, just fans.

I'm not at all convinced that there will be a successful Third Impact in Rebuild. I kinda feel like 2.22's ending was meant to give us that without having to ultimately follow through. I think Anno would be wise to avoid it -- you can't top what was done in EOE, might as well take things in a new direction.

Also, no matter what "episode" we're up to, it doesn't mean they can't go back and draw from the stories they skipped. Maybe Asuka and Mari will be dancing like they want to win...

Alaska Slim
Frigus Ignoramus
Frigus Ignoramus
User avatar
Posts: 4909
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Location: The Land Up Over
Gender: Male

Re: Whose the n00b? B/-Bl

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:04 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:What do you base that on?

1. Q And Final are slated to premier together.

2. End Of Evangelion itself was compromised of two "episodes", each about 45 minutes long. The parallel is rather uncanny.

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Obviously, none of that applies anymore

And what do you base that on?

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I'm not at all convinced that there will be a successful Third Impact in Rebuild.

We have the Chekov's Gun of Lilith hanging precariously in 2.0, that "key" which Gendo has yet to use, and a rather graphic description of EVA-08 that seems to suggest that dumbf*ckery be afoot, they're not going to let such dramatic plot devices remain idle.

3rd Impact will occur, even if it's only a false start and immediately swept under the rug.

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I think Anno would be wise to avoid it -- you can't top what was done in EOE,

But you can't avoid what is inevitable, both NERV and SEELE want 3rd impact to occur, just on their own terms, and they've yet to play all their cards.

By allowing pretty much all the "secrets" in the story to hang out in the open, the characters have no choice but to advance the plot, as they see fit.

I think Anno would be wise to avoid it -- you can't top what was done in EOE

He doesn't need to, Evangelion has always been about the character's inner monologues and moments of introspection, even in Rebuild, that hasn't changed. We got like what, at least 3 instances of Shinji's "train" segment in 2.0? The pieces are already in place, the formula set, the characters willing, he's going through with it.
"It's all fun and games till one of you gets my foot up your ass." - FofR, TrivialBeing.net Webmaster

"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 62
Posts: 20451
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Whose the n00b? B/-Bl

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:10 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:1. Q And Final are slated to premier together.
Yes, and the same and only press release that gave that information would have had them come out in 2009, with the first 3 parts being pure recap.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics||MAL
Avatar: Mahou Shoujo Rapture Asuka : "Slice them up with your magical karambit, chu!"

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 8446
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male

Re: Whose the n00b? B/

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:28 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:More than that I'm afraid, the next two films, from what's been planned, will not be as long as the first two.

I wouldn't get all nervous about Anno's planning methods, and how little he likes to prepare for them. His whole career seems to be based on his ending being a little odd. I think this is just classic Anno at work here:

The third and final volume of Gunbuster (Episodes 5 & 6) was not even fully re-written in script format before its previews were needed for the second volume, and only the episode titles and photos of the unfinished script were released for the previews at the time. Those last two episodes are the most impressive thing about the series.

The ending of Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water was shelved when Anno was just episodes away from revealing it in the TV network's favor of having a bunch of filler instead. By the time Anno was finally allowed to finish his story, it kinda made up for all of that filler.

The planning of the last two Evangelion episodes followed suit of the last two Gunbuster episodes, in that was rushed to completion and was barely ready for the "Next Episode" previews for the episodes leading up to them. The only difference is that the last two episodes themselves contained the photos of the script and storyboards, and were not just released in the previews. Later the director's cut episodes and a feature film was announced to alternately complete the series. The film The End of Evangelion is the most impressive part of the original series.

Anno only wrote a little over the first half of His & Hers Circumstances.

Anno at least makes the previews of the next New Evangelion Theatrical Editions into the production of the current film, resulting in less storyboard and photos of unfinished scripts in the previews, but still doesn't have all of his ducks in a row before the next film's pre-production.

And I'm not surprised. Based on Anno's history, the last two Evangelion films will probably be the most impressive part of the whole series. But since he's not finished with them, we'll just have to wait it out and see if history repeats itself in this case.
Live-Action Lofi Hip Hop Radio beats to relax/study to

Details about the making of the video here.

Alaska Slim
Frigus Ignoramus
Frigus Ignoramus
User avatar
Posts: 4909
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Location: The Land Up Over
Gender: Male

Re: Whose the n00b? B/-Bl- B)

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:36 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Yes, and the same and only press release that gave that information would have had them come out in 2009, with the first 3 parts being pure recap.

Which only increases the parallel to EoE, Air was the "real world" events, and My Purest Heart for You was Instrumentality and it's aftermath.

In the announcement they only promised a new ending for 4.0 that, for all we know, means they'll go through instrumentality and determine a different outcome, or they change just what the consequences of initiating it were.

Or as someone else suggested, maybe we'll just get this:
SPOILER: Show
Image

And you, Professor, with your ever-present pessimism (or should I call it morbid pragmatism?) will be given your final reason to dismiss all of Rebuild with a disproving look and a gentle shake of your head. :um-no:
"It's all fun and games till one of you gets my foot up your ass." - FofR, TrivialBeing.net Webmaster

"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute

C.A.P.
Wabbit Duelist
Wabbit Duelist
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 2007
Joined: Nov 25, 2010
Location: America
Gender: Male

Re: Whose the n00b? B/

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby C.A.P. » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:00 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Anno only directed the first half of His & Hers Circumstances.


Well now I wouldn't say that!
"Free-associative internet ravings know no proprietors."-Azathoth
"Cinema's value is that it is inhuman."-chee
"I only meant to stay a while."-ELO

Shogo-Kun
Ireul
Ireul
User avatar
Age: 28
Posts: 670
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shogo-Kun » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:22 am

For what it's worth, I think 3.0 will feature some resembelence to Episodes 20, 21, 23, and 24 and FINAL will be a completely new ending as Anno promised. Yes, it will be impressive, but on what grounds, we don't know.

And honestly, I don't see how you can stretch that into two full length movies. We're pretty much 60% finished with the story. I think you can fit the remaining 40% into two back-to-back movies.
NGE was a damned good anime
EoE was an anime masterpiece
And Rebuild is nothing short of epic
Long live the EVAs!!

AVATAR Oreo Nakamura, Light and Dark

Hyper Shinchan
God
God
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 4774
Joined: Aug 07, 2005
Location: Bunga Bunga Republic
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Hyper Shinchan » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:36 am

View Original PostShogo-Kun wrote:For what it's worth, I think 3.0 will feature some resembelence to Episodes 20, 21, 23, and 24 and FINAL will be a completely new ending as Anno promised. Yes, it will be impressive, but on what grounds, we don't know.

We already had elements of 23 in NME 2.22 and Kaworu's relation with Shinji will probably be quite different so I doubt that we'll have much of 24 (except maybe a battle at the bottom of Central Dogma, a much cooler one, though).
View Original PostShogo-Kun wrote:And honestly, I don't see how you can stretch that into two full length movies. We're pretty much 60% finished with the story. I think you can fit the remaining 40% into two back-to-back movies.

Well, it could be the case because 2.22 already distanced considerably from NGE and the next movie could even be a more radical departure; if there were many new elements, two full length movies could be required to develop everything in a proper way.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 8446
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male

Re: Whose the n00b? B/

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:51 am


Thanks! Fixed.
Live-Action Lofi Hip Hop Radio beats to relax/study to

Details about the making of the video here.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 62
Posts: 20451
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Whose the n00b? B/-Bl- B)

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:49 pm

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:Which only increases the parallel to EoE,
LOLWUT?

In both its timing (2009) and content (new pilot, new Evas, the whole nine yards), Rebuild 2.0 rendered the original mission statement from the very inception of the project a quaint historical document, one which was demonstrably overtaken by later reality. As the sole source of the 2 and two half movies notion, it no longer has any credibility.

That said, I would not be surprised at Q being the final movie; that would fit the kabuki structure implicit in the naming:

Wikipedia wrote:Nearly every full-length play occupies five acts. The first corresponds to jo, an auspicious and slow opening which introduces the audience to the characters and the plot. The next three acts correspond to ha, speeding events up, culminating almost always in a great moment of drama or tragedy in the third act and possibly a battle in the second and/or fourth acts. The final act, corresponding to kyu, is almost always short, providing a quick and satisfying conclusion
My emphasis.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics||MAL
Avatar: Mahou Shoujo Rapture Asuka : "Slice them up with your magical karambit, chu!"

Shogo-Kun
Ireul
Ireul
User avatar
Age: 28
Posts: 670
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shogo-Kun » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:33 pm

It's possible that Q will compromise of 3.0 and FINAL. It'd be weird if it didn't.
NGE was a damned good anime
EoE was an anime masterpiece
And Rebuild is nothing short of epic
Long live the EVAs!!

AVATAR Oreo Nakamura, Light and Dark

Reichu
Death True True
Death True True
User avatar
Posts: 23769
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Starship Eva
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:37 pm

View Original PostShogo-Kun wrote:It's possible that Q will compromise of 3.0 and FINAL. It'd be weird if it didn't.

Q=3.0 in the same way that 序=1.0 and 破=2.0.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
Father Brother Lover Mother (AO3, FF.net)
The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!

JoeD80
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
Posts: 395
Joined: Jan 08, 2010
Location: Los Angeles

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby JoeD80 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:14 pm

In the original trailer IIRC, it said
1.0 - 序
2.0 - 破
3.0 - 急
Final - ?

Warren Peace
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 89
Posts: 1737
Joined: May 28, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Warren Peace » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:29 pm

Dividing EOE into two parts was a gimmick designed to fit the film into the original series. Since there are no "episodes" now, why on earth would Anno do that again? If there are only three films, there are three films. Why stick credits in the middle and make it artificially four?

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:We have the Chekov's Gun of Lilith hanging precariously in 2.0, that "key" which Gendo has yet to use, and a rather graphic description of EVA-08 that seems to suggest that dumbf*ckery be afoot, they're not going to let such dramatic plot devices remain idle.

...

He doesn't need to, Evangelion has always been about the character's inner monologues and moments of introspection, even in Rebuild, that hasn't changed. We got like what, at least 3 instances of Shinji's "train" segment in 2.0? The pieces are already in place, the formula set, the characters willing, he's going through with it.


All of that doesn't necessarily add up to a successful Third Impact (or have anything to do with it, even). I'm sure there characters who want to go through with Instrumentality, but 2.22's ending makes me think Anno has other plans. Why not save the apocalyptic imagery for when it actually happens? This is Anno having his cake and eating it too, I think -- he gives us a mini-apocalypse to make up for the one that doesn't happen later. In any event, he destroyed the world last time. Why not save it this time?

Alaska Slim
Frigus Ignoramus
Frigus Ignoramus
User avatar
Posts: 4909
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Location: The Land Up Over
Gender: Male

huh? B/

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:07 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:LOLWUT?

In both its timing (2009)

I admittedly can't even find the announcement of "New Evas, New pilot, New ending" anymore, so you have me at disadvantage, but I'm still not convinced.

Rebuild 2.0 was originally slated to be released sometime in the summer of 2008, but instead came out one full year later. If the announcement was also made in 2009, doesn't that mean it is then the readjusted plan?

Khara failed to keep to a deadline, true, but why would they then opt out of keeping the final two films shorter? If anything, I'd think that be an incentive to keep the work load low and easy to get through, so they can finally put the whole thing out there.

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:and content (new pilot, new Evas, the whole nine yards), Rebuild 2.0 rendered the original mission statement from the very inception of the project a quaint historical document,

I don't know, we still have other new Evas to look forward to, possibly another new pilot to go along with them if Khara and Hideaki Anno are feeling especially coy, and the new ending is still an open question other than that some sort of heavy introspection is bound to occur.

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:one which was demonstrably overtaken by later reality. As the sole source of the 2 and two half movies notion, it no longer has any credibility.

And am I missing something? Did another "document" replace it as the default plan in the interim?

Is there any other evidence besides Khara being tardy, and 2.0's role believed to have been changed?


View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Dividing EOE into two parts was a gimmick designed to fit the film into the original series.

And there are plenty of gimmicks and gratuities in Rebuild meant to evoke the original series.

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Since there are no "episodes" now, why on earth would Anno do that again? If there are only three films, there are three films.

And then we are clearly over the halfway point, and the origin of this discussion is rendered moot.

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Why stick credits in the middle and make it artificially four?

Why'd they do the same for Death & Rebirth when they premiered together?

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:All of that doesn't necessarily add up to a successful Third Impact (or have anything to do with it, even). I'm sure there characters who want to go through with Instrumentality,

It's not just "there are", it's the majority of the cast who have the resources and the power to pull it off. When Gendo and Fuyutsuki were discussing their plans during EVA-01's "ascension" they weren't talking as if that right there was the end, but that it only added to their plans to ensure the end, as they wanted it, would come. From the way they talked, it wouldn't surprise me if they predicted EVA-06 would come off the moon as it did.

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:...but 2.22's ending makes me think Anno has other plans.

He has plans to change the ending, I seriously doubt he has plans to avoid the pulpit from which he preaches.

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Why not save the apocalyptic imagery for when it actually happens? This is Anno having his cake and eating it too, I think -- he gives us a mini-apocalypse to make up for the one that doesn't happen later.

Except to get the two Liliths in the plot resolved, there has to be more "apocalyptic imagery". Those things will not go gently into that good night, neither SEELE or NERVE will let it, and they both have one.

Not mention, there's still Nebuchadnezzar's key. It's function is specifically the "key to human instrumentality"! Why give it all that build up, and not use it? If the intention was to only act as a feint and not go through with it, why not just keep it as Adam and do away with the intrigue?

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:In any event, he destroyed the world last time. Why not save it this time?

Who says they won't? Stop just short of 3I, a pre-instrumentality introspection might suffice, or lessen the damage caused by 3I through keeping it contained within the Geofront or just pull more technobabble out of their asses and "science" the plot into resetting itself.

If they can ensure that EVA-02 keeps an arm to raise Shinji out of a bunker, then they can also manipulate this so that 3I occurs, and still delivers a less mean-spirited ending than EoE. If that is what they're aiming for, anyway.
"It's all fun and games till one of you gets my foot up your ass." - FofR, TrivialBeing.net Webmaster

"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest