White Lillies for Yui

[Kendrix]

All of you probably remember the scene where the remainder of the Ikari family goes to visit Yui's grave from episode 15 as an important point for Shinji's and Gendo's relationship and a scene where we first hear anything concrete about what the hell happened to Shinji's obviously missing mother.
For the Ikaris, this is perhaps the only scene where they have anything resemblant proper conversation about their feelings, sort of the "peak" of their relationship before the Bardiel Incident tears it to shreds. This is also where both Shinji and the audience get hints that Gendo properly cared about his wife. (Shinji comments on it in episode 18, saying that he thinks he now understands "the bit with his mother". Before, he semed to have doubts about that/ bits from eps 16 and 20 even suggest that he sorta blamed Gendo for Yui's death.)

The scene is deemed so important that they transfered it to Rebuild in all its entirity, completely unchaged except for prettier graphix and slightly redesigned grave markers. So while thier dialogue, Rei's brief appearance and even their shadows have probably been analized to death, I'd like to point your attention to one little detail: As usual when one visits a grave, the two of them bring flowers:
[URL=http://img807.imageshack.us/i/lilly.png/][/URL]

As you can probably tell, they're white Lillies.
Now, most Flowers that are comonly used as presents have a certain meaning associated with them, for example, red roses = passionate romantic love etc.
Now, what about Lillies and how does it relate to that scene?
Well, I've looked it up, and found out that white Lillies commonly mean "Nothing could be purer and nobler than our love", or "I undeviantly give you my pure love", sorta like the "classy/poetic" alternative to your classic white Rose of grief. The "undeviantly" part or the superlative in the first one would fit Gendo very well, as Yui pretty much IS his life.
But this is probably just silly romance crap for many of you, right?
Well, here comes the "interesting" bit here:
White Lillies are comonly associated with
a) Hera/Juno, the greek/roman Goddess of mariage and motherhood. Legend says the very first Lillies were created from the milk of her breats.
How this relates to Yui should be obvious: She is a sort of "classic woman" (I want to have many kids! etc), but also a powerful character (scientific genius, her actions in EVA 01...) and practically a semi-godess. She also breastfed her son. Also, Hera's married to the "father of gods", Zeus. Who is the resident walking father archetype of NGE, complete with the obligatoric beard? And who's his wife?
b) The virgin Mary, i.e, the chick who gave birth to the messiah.
Now, who's the resident messiac figure (even if he's rather the anti-hero variant) in EVA, and who's his mom? Tipp: He even gets his hands pierced in both continuities.

[The Eva Monkey]

Good post. One thing I would however be curious about:

Do white lilies have special significance in Japanese culture that is close to or similar to what you've listed above?

[Kendrix]

Good post. One thing I would however be curious about:

Do white lilies have special significance in Japanese culture that is close to or similar to what you've listed above?

Well, I don't think they have known the sort of Lillies we have here long enough to make up a meaning for them, but I'm not really an expert at this.
As far as I know, they actually use the english word for "Lily", but I'm not completely sure... I think i once heard it in a song.

But I'm pretty sure that they also apply meanings to flowers (for example, a blue chinese baloon flower equals eternal love)

[Azathoth]

Good post. One thing I would however be curious about:

Do white lilies have special significance in Japanese culture that is close to or similar to what you've listed above?

Lilies are kind of associated with lesbians in anime/manga subculture, by virtue of yuri meaning "lily". Although I doubt Anno intended to make any reference to Yui's sexuality...it might interest Reichu anyway

Anyway, I doubt there's any flower-language stuff in the shot. Lilies aren't terribly uncommon as grave bouquets...seems more appropriate than roses.

Shinji brings the flowers rather than Gendou, if there's anything to that.

[rhfxz1s]

Good post. I always found this scene interesting because you clearly see Gendo struggling with his emotions and doesn't seem to have any idea how he is supposed to talk and relate to Shinji.

You could also see the flowers as showing the widening gap between Gendo's perception of Yui (which seems to have grown to practically god like at this point) and the reality of her. He chooses flowers that represent "modesty" and "purity" as if she was a timid, innocent woman, when she seems to be anything but. This is especially true with her being the soul of Unit-01, having to deal with gruesome battles and being highly destructive. Gendo was probably upset with this on some level and would rather not have Yui deal with that, though it seems he had little choice but to do so.

[Kendrix]

Lilies are kind of associated with lesbians in anime/manga subculture, by virtue of yuri meaning "lily". Although I doubt Anno intended to make any reference to Yui's sexuality...it might interest Reichu anyway

Anyway, I doubt there's any flower-language stuff in the shot. Lilies aren't terribly uncommon as grave bouquets...seems more appropriate than roses.

Shinji brings the flowers rather than Gendou, if there's anything to that.

Does he? He doesn't carry any when he leaves Misato's apartment. Sure, he couldn've bought them on the way, or the two of them could've bought them together, but... How do you get the impression that Shinji brought them?

@rhfxz1s I don't think Gendo sees Yui like this - He took her surname, he'd never have gotten into the project without her. She was the one who gave him a tipp how to get out of that detainment center, and then, there's his self-depreciation/uncertainty around people where she was sorta his compass, he doesn't think he can handle a kid without her - It's more than just likely that he sees her as "above" him/stronger than him rather than as an "cute innocent thing".
I think the "purity" flowers are more likely to be a gesture of (over-?) glorification/devotion.

Also, yeah this is a very interesting scene, also because it is one of Gendo's rare attempts to act as a mentor/father figure. (The only other instance that would be that obvious would be his clumsy attempt to give Shinji advice from Rebuild - tough Episode 16 hints that the first interation words "You must'n run away" may be attributed to him. Seeing how deeply these words have ingrained themselves into Shinji's conciousness rather shows us how much he suffers from the daddy issues - something that has always intrigued me is how vague the past of those two is left even if Shinji is the main character - all we get to see are vague impressions of his early childhood, and we're told only that late - episodes 16 and 20 go and hit us with vague hints that Shinji blames Gendo for Yui's death and that Shinji was "the one who ran away..." And the incident three years ago after which Gendo and Shinji didn't speak to each other for three years is also left somewhat nondescript. Shinji is actually no less mysterious than the rest of the cast even if we hear his thoughts all the time...
Also, if there was a big incident 3 years ago, what was before? Did the two of them meet in irregular intervalls, or at least once a year?

Other interesting bits from that scene:

SPOILER: Show

[URL=http://img600.imageshack.us/i/35764172.png/][/URL]
They're both uneasily looking to the side, but neither sees the other. Very poingnant once EoE tells you that they basically have the same self-esteem issues - Because they couldn't bring themselves to face each other, they never saw that the other was doing/feeling excactly the same fear/uneasiness.

Then there's this:

SPOILER: Show

[URL=http://img219.imageshack.us/i/19693198.png/][/URL]
While Gendo is the tallest character in the cast and usually towers above Shinji, usually staring down at him in a way that makes Shinji feel quite small, here, Shinji's shadow appears to be taller. Now, we know that when Shinji thinks of Gendo, he thinks of a tall, intimidating silhouette. We see this picture over and over again:
[spoiler][URL=http://img215.imageshack.us/i/84311260.png/][/URL]

So maybe this constellation is there to show us that Gendo also sees Shinji as "tall ominous shadow thing"/ feels equally uneasy in his presence.
This is reinforced by the reappearance of that "shadow motif" when we finally get the big reveal in EoE:

SPOILER: Show

[URL=http://img88.imageshack.us/i/72189989.png/][/URL]

Because, that tall, dark menacing silhouette Shinji saw... Gendo never really "filled it out.", to say it with the language of that pic. He never was that scary. As little children, we see our parents as big, all defining gods, but they're actually not much more than ordinary people with the same fears and hopes we have. There's also a pic from that scene where Yui's shadow towers over his even tough she is standing a little before him:

SPOILER: Show

[URL=http://img10.imageshack.us/i/35912124.png/][/URL]

This is rigt when he says that he doesn't deserve love - he thinks Yui's actually too good for him/above him so he sees her towering over him.

Also, Shadows are related to the shadow archetype, of course - Because, I think, if each character of EVA was to represent a part of the human psyche (For example:

SPOILER: Show

Asuka: Id, Eros or destructive interactions, ferility Rei: Super-Ego, Thanatos, Hope that ppl can understand each other, sterility, Misato: Emotion, open sexuality Ritsuko: Rationallity, hidden sexuality Kaji: Lies and mysteries and their role in life, hard work Mari: Willpower and balance, Kaji, Ritsuko and Misato as the "Adult world" Misato, Yui and Rei and Lillith as mother/semi mother figures, Kaji, Gendo, Kaworu and Adam as father figures... and these meanings slightly change dependng on whose perspective we're talking about. The ones I listed here are from Shinji's PoV since it is the most used. In the instrospective sequences, the characters can always represent either the actual character, what the one whose POV we're dealing with sees them as, or the conceps they stand for. For example, Shinji's hope/voice of Reason takes Rei's form. (Probably because - "Hey, if Daddy can be nice to that girl, then maybe he isn't an asshole?") But when we get to the "alltough he was human like me" or "Did I take your place?" bits, the actual Rei is referred to - And in Asuka's segment from episode 25, Rei means something completely different - more an unpleasant mirror than any sort of hope. Because Asuka never really saw the "actual" Rei. She projects her own flaws on others to deal with others - Misato is a "bitch" because she reminds Asuka of the way she sexually offers herself, Shinji is an "idiot" because he reminds Asuka of her own weakness, and Rei is a "doll" because her not so apparent emotions and her lacking attachment to life remind Asuka of emptyShell!Kyoko and that little part of her that wanted to follow her into death as long as Kyoko wouldn't stop being her mommy. Note that Kyoko and Rei even have the same hairstyle. The Rei in Asuka's mind may be a dark, twisted mother archetype - Asuka reject anything vaguely motherlike (Misato) even in herself - ("I don't want kids")...Er... I got carried away^^)

BOTH Ikaris would be the 'self' - Shinji as the self seen from within and Gendo as the self seen from the outside, or perhaps Gendo is, from Shinji's perspective, the "self that observes the self" - and decides to hate it, with the roles reversed if you switch the PoV.

All in all, I think the Shinji/Gendo relationship is astonishingly underanalized, that is, the analysis seldom goes beyond one-dimensional "that's the bad, bad villain that damaged Shinji and that Shinji might become like". But there's so much more - I mean, if you were to create a show mostly about your feelings, would you make such a "bad, bad villain" look like... basically, yourself with straight hair?
[/spoiler]

[Azathoth]

Does he? He doesn't carry any when he leaves Misato's apartment. Sure, he couldn've bought them on the way, or the two of them could've bought them together, but... How do you get the impression that Shinji brought them?

When the scene begins, Shinji is standing before the marker, holding the bouquet; when Gendou speaks, Shinji is crouching in front of the marker with the bouquet laid before it. Not sure where he got them. Doesn't really seem in character for Gendou to bring a gift to a marker which means pretty much nothing to him, though.

[Kendrix]

When the scene begins, Shinji is standing before the marker, holding the bouquet; when Gendou speaks, Shinji is crouching in front of the marker with the bouquet laid before it. Not sure where he got them. Doesn't really seem in character for Gendou to bring a gift to a marker which means pretty much nothing to him, though.

oh you're right... Still, they could have bought it together, in which case Shinji would hardly open his mouth to suggest uh, white roses instead or whatever there is.

Still, no matter who bought the flowers, Shinji and not Gendo being the one to deposit them certainly has a reason - I wouldn't say the grave means "nothing" to her, he does come there, but he is not one to focus his grief on objects (No keepsakes...), he sees the marker as an abstract symbol and is a pretty pragmatic person, whereas polite little Shinji would bother with the ceremonial - i.e, depositing the flowers.
The real keepsake/ Yui's real remains are Rei, anyway - whom Gendo has requested to be on the helicopter to pick him up...

IF Shinji bought them, that would rule out the "love/dlower language" implications, he probably just got a flower that ppl commonly deposit on graves.
That does not mean that the Mary/Hera implications aren't in there, sort of "for the viewer" or to fit the general western mythology aesthetics. ("Let's just google for a flower connected to some western legendary mother figure that is also white and pretty" Or- "To fit the western mythology theme, let's look up flowers that are put on graves in the west - oh, wait, there's one associated with virgin mary? We're using that one!" or even "Lets raid wikipedia for flowers comnly put on graves, maybe one of them has a myth vaguely related to our plot")

[Mr. Tines]

White lilies seem to be a common floral tribute -- any anime, any time flowers are being left on a grave, or cast onto open water for the dead, it'll be those. As such, I expect it to be a contemporary Japanese custom.

[Kendrix]

White lilies seem to be a common floral tribute -- any anime, any time flowers are being left on a grave, or cast onto open water for the dead, it'll be those. As such, I expect it to be a contemporary Japanese custom.

Uh. That would support the "Shinji bought them and got some commonly used flower" approach. He was depositing them... Then again, that could mean that the flower language implications are as comonly known over there as "white flowers for graves" and "Roses for love" are over here... The Mary/Hera thing may just be a lucky coincidence, who knows.

Anyway, let's keep talking about the Ikari family - I made some other points above.

[symbv]

White lilies seem to be a common floral tribute -- any anime, any time flowers are being left on a grave, or cast onto open water for the dead, it'll be those. As such, I expect it to be a contemporary Japanese custom.

There are several ways of looking at it
- First, Tines is right, white lilies are common as a flower to bring for grave visit.
- Also, for those who know a bit more about religion, in Japan there are no lack of schools with "white lilies" in the names or school emblem. Those are almost always all-girl Catholic schools. So there is indeed association with Catholic religion in Japan too.
- The common symbolism of white lilies as understood in Japan would most likely be "purity", particularly linked to the Holy Virgin Mary.
- Of course, in Japanese lilies is Yuri. Yuri 百合is the symbol of lesbianism in alternative culture circles, not just in manga and anime. The term was coined in the 70s, by Bungaku Itoh 伊藤文学, the chief editor of the "gay literature magazine" Bara-zoku 薔薇族(Rose Tribe) as the counterpart to the use of Rose (Bara)　薔薇 symbol in male homosexualism (like the magazine Bara-zoku).

[Kendrix]

There are several ways of looking at it
- First, Tines is right, white lilies are common as a flower to bring for grave visit.
- Also, for those who know a bit more about religion, in Japan there are no lack of schools with "white lilies" in the names or school emblem. Those are almost always all-girl Catholic schools. So there is indeed association with Catholic religion in Japan too.
- The common symbolism of white lilies as understood in Japan would most likely be "purity", particularly linked to the Holy Virgin Mary.
- Of course, in Japanese lilies is Yuri. Yuri 百合is the symbol of lesbianism in alternative culture circles, not just in manga and anime. The term was coined in the 70s, by Bungaku Itoh 伊藤文学, the chief editor of the "gay literature magazine" Bara-zoku 薔薇族(Rose Tribe) as the counterpart to the use of Rose (Bara)　薔薇 symbol in male homosexualism (like the magazine Bara-zoku).

That means at least the "Virgin Mary" connection may be a intentional?
if Lillies are widely known to be related to western mythology, my theory may not be that lost at all XD
Thank you for your insider info, as always^^

I don't think the homosexuality implications apply to our case here - (cue someone reviving the "Mari is gay for Yui" thread. Trololol XD)

Oh, on an interesting note, episode 21 also has lillies (Pink ones, tough, with pink being Yui's associated color when it isn't being Mana Kirishima's. She wore that pink shirt a lot) when Yui's death is mentioned.

[Azathoth]

Oh, on an interesting note, episode 21 also has lillies (Pink ones, tough, with pink being Yui's associated color when it isn't being Mana Kirishima's. She wore that pink shirt a lot) when Yui's death is mentioned.

Surely purple is more Yui's color...

[Kendrix]

Surely purple is more Yui's color...

Actually, we never saw any purple associated with the cute human, soft-spoken kid loving Yui.

You may interpret the darkening of the color however you whish.
I think EVA 01 is merely purple because it looks cool.
That part of the design is for tha sake of "cool mecha", the interesting/deep stuff happens when the armor comes off...

The afore mentiones flowers very a very light shade of pink, tough...

[Azathoth]

Actually, we never saw any purple associated with the cute human, soft-spoken kid loving Yui.

She's wearing purple during the "congratulations" scene and I think other places as well.

[Ornette]

Also in ep 21
[wkimg:g8t3jizd]21 yui fuyutsuki look.jpg[/wkimg:g8t3jizd]

And in EoE
[wkimg:g8t3jizd]M26 Fuyutsuki Yui.jpg[/wkimg:g8t3jizd]

And again in EoE when Yui is talking to Gendo before Eva-01 bites into him (eventhough the previous 2 cuts of the talking, she's wearing pink).

[Kendrix]

Also in ep 21
[wkimg]21 yui fuyutsuki look.jpg[/wkimg]

And in EoE
[wkimg]M26 Fuyutsuki Yui.jpg[/wkimg]

And again in EoE when Yui is talking to Gendo before Eva-01 bites into him (eventhough the previous 2 cuts of the talking, she's wearing pink).

Okay, agreed, she wears both colors. Sorry. I had forgotten. Pink is nothing but a half-assed attempt purple anyway, forget the pink.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Yeah, definitely a good post and something I don't believe has been mentioned before. The thing to keep in mind though is that "the language of flowers" is slightly different in every culture, much like color associations. Although, lilies are a very old poetic/literary symbol for purity.