Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [1]

[Hyper Shinchan]

well, there was also the possibilities not having Asuka in Rebuild at all or introducing her in 1.0...but then again...the creation process of something large, lengthy and ambitious is no cakewalk

and people still would've hated the film to varying degrees, but its fascinating to think of the What Ifs, so yeah

Yet they're both hardly acceptable options. 1.0 was closely following the series (for most aspects) so introducing her would have meant either cutting something else, increasing the length of the movie or changing the story in a significant way (that wasn't apparently part of Anno's vision at the time).
Not introducing her in Rebuild would have caused an uproar and apparently both Anno and Tsurumaki are Asuka's fan after all; at that point one could say that maybe an option was not introducing Mari but they wanted something new for 2.0.
Personally I really have an hard time trying to be in their place and having all these different priorities, people arguing that the Rebuild isn't good should at least try to consider it (and hope that things will become better if 3.0 will really have an extended duration).

EDIT:

So now you are crying because others are using your own tactics? Most of your posts, whether they are about Rebuild or not, seem to follow this untactful way of insulting the opposition while avoiding the actual argumentation.

I love you, Oz.

[Nonoriri]

So just because the reason behind the bed scene is so "careless" the scene has to be a failure? What I'd like to hear what is the problem with that scene. I thought it was a great scene because it managed to develop Asuka as a character and did that with a strong impact.

It works but as a replacement for the unknown amount of cuts that Enokido himself felt left her character without the basis for her "change" from a jerkass to a softy it doesn't quite have the same weight. Is it enough that it adequately encapsulated/made up for those lost scenes? I suppose we'll never know.

[Lucretius]

So now you are crying because others are using your own tactics? Most of your posts, whether they are about Rebuild or not, seem to follow this untactful way of insulting the opposition while avoiding the actual argumentation.

I was pointing out Gasmask's incoherent attempt at aiming for the moral high ground. I'm well aware that my posts are perceived as trollish in[s] some[/s] most circles.

[esselfortium]

But do you guys have any idea about a possible alternative modification to the narration that could have managed to give her more screen-time and develop her better, reduce the duration of the movie to the limits that they received and all of this without turning all the movie in an Asuka and Rei's fighting over Shinji.
I think that this was (at least) the least worse option.

Actually, yeah. While there's the "easy" solution of just giving Asuka some more scenes, let's take things a step further and really do it the right way: Develop the three pilots in relation to one another, rather than developing them almost exclusively in relation to their attachment to Shinji.

Eric Blair suggested a pretty adept, and surprisingly obvious, way of handling this a while back when we were discussing this very issue over IRC:

In following 2.0's method of combining existing storylines and adding a slight twist to them, take the sync training from episode 9 and revise it to involve all three pilots, either in preparation for Sahaquiel or for another angel. Asuka's and Rei's revelations and personality changes could be handled in ways that aren't so wholly dependent on Shinji, thus drastically reducing the harem aspect. The cooking arc could be cut out completely, even, while still developing the characters around each other.

Gahh. Essel, you and I both know you can do better than this. This is just childish.

True, but it exhausts me to be expected to explain the same thing that I and others have already covered in great depth multiple times over the course of this thread. I still do it anyway most of the time, but sometimes I just can't be assed when all the answers are already laid out.

So just because the reason behind the bed scene is so "careless" the scene has to be a failure? What I'd like to hear what is the problem with that scene. I thought it was a great scene because it managed to develop Asuka as a character and did that with a strong impact.

The bed scene intends to develop Asuka's personality change and her relation with Shinji, but they only speak exactly once after it, and it's the married-couple blushing scene from episode 17. It's an adequate scene in and of itself, but in the context of the movie, it can easily be argued that it by itself couldn't have accomplished what they set out for it to do. Even 30 seconds of everyday interaction added somewhere to show that they're still actually speaking to each other could have made it make sense.

[Bagheera]

Okay, let me put it this way: I'm not the target audience for Captain Underpants, but I can tell it's not as good a children's book as Alice in Wonderland.

You're allowed to have an opinion on the structural integrity of 2.0's narrative architecture without having a Rei shrine in your bathroom. :P

I don't dispute that (and it'd be an Asuka shrine, duh). I'm just saying I don't think I can judge that structural integrity fairly. I normally can, but Anno tends to play pretty heavily with symbology and such in his writing. Between that and a strong bias on my part I think it'd be really easy to miss some important points about what he was trying to do with the story (hell, we're still debating the finer points of EoE 13 years after the fact; putting 2.xx to bed this early in the game seems awfully premature to me).

Gasmask was being too generous. Both films have better constructed plots than 2.0.

I don't think that's true. It certainly isn't true with Waterworld (I mean, hell, Nonoriri could wander in and start going off about how it's not even arguable and even I wouldn't object there), and while the extended cut might have helped out Avatar it's still a relentlessly imperialistic, utterly cliched bucket of tripe that just happens to look pretty. Rebuild has a lot more going on than that, and that's true even if Anno did screw the pooch with his handling of Asuka (and I'm still not convinced that's the case).

[Hyper Shinchan]

Actually, yeah. While there's the "easy" solution of just giving Asuka some more scenes, let's take things a step further and really do it the right way: Develop the three pilots in relation to one another, rather than developing them almost exclusively in relation to their attachment to Shinji.

I'm simply repeating myself, but Evangelion is about Shinji, not about Asuka or about Rei even though since we're mostly guys here so we do like them (and you really got the short end of the stick this time if you're an Asuka's fan); while in NGE they could have managed to develop the story until a certain point on a double or maybe even triple binary (showing part of the story from Asuka and in part Rei's perspective) the ending(s) are always played from his perspective, even Enokido said that this was one of their assumptions, the story is about Shinji, everyone else can be reduced to a secondary character in one way or in another.
You don't agree with their basic assumption but even Anno accepted to reduce her role in 2.0 (even though he said more than once that he likes her), it was probably necessary if they didn't want to completely change what they were planning to do.

[Bagheera]

So now you are crying because others are using your own tactics? Most of your posts, whether they are about Rebuild or not, seem to follow this untactful way of insulting the opposition while avoiding the actual argumentation.

In fairness, they seem to do okay when you give them an actual argument and don't make it personal.

That said, GET OVER IT GUYS 'KAY? CAN WE LIMIT THE ARGUMENTS TO THE DAMN TOPIC AND STOP BEING NASTY TO ONE ANOTHER? HUH? I mean, before you know it Reichu's gonna give us the Rebuild treatment with pictures and it won't be pretty.

So just because the reason behind the bed scene is so "careless" the scene has to be a failure? What I'd like to hear what is the problem with that scene. I thought it was a great scene because it managed to develop Asuka as a character and did that with a strong impact.

Yeah, that was my take too. I really liked that scene. I thought the bits with the cooking were good, too. I also thought that since she didn't start out hating Shinji, and isn't as competitive as Soryu, and generally doesn't seem to have the issues that Soryu does, that her about face was a lot easier to swallow.

[Mr. Tines]

Hoo boy, this thread...
I wake up this morning and see it's exploded overnight. At least it calmed down again. And it kept exploding while I wrote this post!!

its those who constantly screech about their disapproval of the fucking film at any given moment at just about any part of the day, abuse snark to make themselves look bigger, better and badder than their opposition...

Exactly.

To those people I say -- Yeah, Rebuild is shit. We already know. Get over it, and get on with your lives. Take heed of the moral of the original story.

I know I ranted as much as anyone in the weeks after 2.0 came out, after having kept quiet about my increasing misgivings as the trailers started to emerge; but after a while it gets old, and it's time to do other things. Yes, the initial "Khara, I am disappoint" remains, but it will scar over if you leave it alone.

I'm the biggest Asuka fan in the history of forever. How do you think I feel?

I think there's some competition for that role Some of the other contenders sig their feelings to make sure we all know.

People whose approach to...stuff isn't as fucking weird as mine.

That's a sentiment I can get behind.

[esselfortium]

To those people I say -- Yeah, Rebuild is shit. We already know. Get over it, and get on with your lives. Take heed of the moral of the original story.

This thread was totally inactive for weeks, with a few exceptions, until a few days ago.

Interestingly, the tone of the thread after the recent bump was surprisingly calm and amiable even in the face of thefeelingofikarishinji's rather damning assertion, until a familiar face did something or other and pretty soon we were being asked to explain all the same stuff yet again.

Also, if we took heed of the moral of the original story, this site wouldn't exist. Whether this is a good or bad thing I will leave up to personal interpretation. At least we wouldn't have waifu battles in chit-chat.

[Bagheera]

Hoo boy, this thread...
I wake up this morning and see it's exploded overnight. At least it calmed down again.

I know right?

Big chunk can easily go to the graveyard though.

I think there's some competition for that role Some of the other contenders sig their feelings to make sure we all know.

Yeah, I know. When I can think of something that doesn't make me gag or feel like a fucking pedophile I'll run with it.

That's a sentiment I can get behind.

I wish I could figure out why I relate so well to you when we don't seem to agree on anything.

[Oz]

Develop the three pilots in relation to one another, rather than developing them almost exclusively in relation to their attachment to Shinji.

I don't think I see the problem with this. It allows for a more tight and concentrated narrative that still allows all the characters to develop at the same time.

True, but it exhausts me to be expected to explain the same thing that I and others have already covered in great depth multiple times over the course of this thread. I still do it anyway most of the time, but sometimes I just can't be assed when all the answers are already laid out.

My apologies. I have to admit that I haven't read the whole debate in detail, but I believe I have always grasped the main points - which I've always found perplexing. Hence my request for more elaborate answers.

The bed scene intends to develop Asuka's personality change and her relation with Shinji, but they only speak exactly once after it

The way I see it is that the development occurs through implications, not actual dialogue. Sadly I can't go and point out examples from the film now so my take will be left without final argumentation. Instead let's think about Rei's development in the original series. I think we can all agree that it is elliptical and very subtle. In my opinion Asuka's development works the same way in Rebuild whereas Rei is far more explicitly explored (a sort of reversal of the original series). Rebuild might not have as much time to handle it, but I think it's fair to call it at least satisfying.

Even 30 seconds of everyday interaction added somewhere to show that they're still actually speaking to each other could have made it make sense.

You have a good point there. However, I'm not sure where that could have been placed in 2.0. By continuing on my earlier point, Rebuild assumes the audience understands that without addressing it explicitly.

[GasmaskAvenger]

Interestingly, the tone of the thread after the recent bump was surprisingly calm and amiable even in the face of thefeelingofikarishinji's rather damning assertion, until a familiar face did something or other and pretty soon we were being asked to explain all the same stuff yet again.

personally, I was just siting my amusement of the history of the Rebuild quality debate, where it started and where it ended up

but of course, a few sensitive folk here who think that i'm ribbing on anyone personally (which i'm not.) when i'm just ribbing on the attitude and tactics of some of the things done here

[NAveryW]

I haven't been reading the thread, but at 54 pages it seems pretty active. Has anyone convinced anyone of anything yet?

[Nonoriri]

I haven't been reading the thread, but at 54 pages it seems pretty active. Has anyone convinced anyone of anything yet?

Not even a little.

[ran1]

In spite of itself, it's become the second most posted-in topic here. Godayum.

That being said, expecting anything to happen on EGF is like expecting your favorite loli anime girl to grow a penis. It only happens in the fan-art.

[Bagheera]

Eh. I've gotten quite a bit out of the site in the short time I've been here, actually. That trend seems likely to continue as I learn who to listen to and who to ignore. :)

[NAveryW]

So my question is, if nobody's convinced anyone of anything, why does anybody bother to continue debating? Is it fun? Do the people involved feel like they'll "lose" if they back down? Is anyone still hoping to convince others that they're more correct?

[Nonoriri]

So my question is, if nobody's convinced anyone of anything, why does anybody bother to continue debating? Is it fun? Do the people involved feel like they'll "lose" if they back down? Is anyone still hoping to convince others that they're more correct?

We're bored man, 3.0 is some ways away and we've run out of things to talk about.

[Azathoth]

In spite of itself, it's become the second most posted-in topic here. Godayum.

I like this as a general metric of things Rebuild has accomplished.

1. Sold a short fuckton of action figures.
2. Pissed off half the fanbase, whose being pissed off makes the other half also become pissed off.
3. Produced a good deal of bombastic music.
4. Produced many pretty still frames.
5. Sold supplemental materials often far more interesting than the actual movie.
6. Got dubbed.
7. Inspired further shipping.

Anything I missed owing to its not being on page 1? Surely there must have been ludicrous bitchfests about 2.22 when the camrip first arrived...

[esselfortium]

So my question is, if nobody's convinced anyone of anything, why does anybody bother to continue debating? Is it fun? Do the people involved feel like they'll "lose" if they back down? Is anyone still hoping to convince others that they're more correct?

I don't think it's so much any of that, really. Things had pretty much died down and gone quiet for a while, but the thread got bumped and then some people started asking (and/or bitching) about the critics' positions again, we replied, and new and old debates sort of sprung up from there, and out came another bunch of pages of us yelling at each other. Really I'd prefer if we could just explain it once and be done with it, but it doesn't seem possible. :P