Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [1]

[SaltyJoe]

In particular, I thought the elevator scene was really bland taken out of context.

But it wasn't taken out of context. It was recontextualized. Those are not the same.

As much as people go on about the importance of the meta level when looking at Rebuild, i think that in some cases it can be counterproductive. And not just on the level of personal enjoyment, but even when it comes to understanding the plot. For example, another scene that was recontextulaized is the one where we can see Gendo looking at a naked Rei floating in a tank. Everywhere i looked, this forum included, people, probably myself too on occasions, described that scene as "Gendo watching Rei at the Dummy Plug plant". Even though there wasn't even the vaguest of hints dropped that Rei has anything to do with the Dummy System in Rebuild's continuity. In fact, if i recall correctly, it was implicitly hinted that the D.S. was contructed at another base.

However, there is a scene which gives Rei-in-a-tank context within 2.0 itself: the aquarium scene, where she compares herself to fish in a tank that couldn't survive in the outside world. It's a much more obvious connection then anything having to do with the Dummy System, yet for a good number of people, meta level knowledge of the original canon overrides what is there before their eyes.

2.0 is a very sneaky movie this way, because it reuses a lot of scenes and imagery from the series, but that's just as distarcting as it is nostalgic.

[esselfortium]

The first two reviews on Metacritic are in: the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times gave it a 40 and a 50, respectively. Out of 100.

Always a good start!

If you don’t already know the story — about young robot pilots being used to battle mysterious “angels” that threaten to destroy Earth — the film, which recasts events from roughly the middle of the TV series, will make no sense. It’s strictly for the fans, who will furiously parse the changes in the narrative (including a new female pilot) and the nonsensical stew of philosophical and religious symbolism.

The message of the current installment appears to be that puppy love can both save the world and end it — if you wait through the closing credits, you’ll get a clue as to which — and that the producers haven’t forgotten the importance of a little tasteful nudity in the midst of apocalypse.

Trying to comprehend the jargon-rife storylines and high-minded philosophical talk is a demanding task when the pace is so unforgiving, which suggests that this new concentrated "Evangelion" might best be appreciated by those who remember the psychological nuances of the small-screen version.

Amid the eye-popping bursts of spirographic CGI imagery there are dramatically interesting kernels, though, like the character of gung-ho pilot Asuka, and dehumanizing issues surrounding high-tech warfare.

But for the most part, this is the kind of immersive fanboy experience that doesn't suffer wandering attention spans.

So... the pacing is rushed, the details are confusing and often meaningless to viewers unfamiliar with the original series, and the 'dramatically interesting' parts are only undeveloped 'kernels,' at least one of which was intentionally marginalized and sidelined as one of the primary goals of the the film's production.

I hope Roger Ebert reviews it.

[SaltyJoe]

(...) one of which was intentionally marginalized and sidelined as one of the primary goals of the the film's production.

Tsurumaki said that they wanted to do the opposite. Whether they succeeded or not is up for debate.

[esselfortium]

Tsurumaki said that they wanted to do the opposite. Whether they succeeded or not is up for debate.

I don't know if I would agree with that, based on the sum of their statements translated so far. It seems more like they wrote the film around trying to keep her as sidelined as possible without making her completely irrelevant. Just about every idea (if not every idea) for her discussed in the interviews involved keeping her mostly out of the picture until Eva-03.

Her arc in the final film actually seems to have retained some of the concepts from Enokido's early draft in which Mari gets to everything before Asuka and effectively takes over her life, in that Asuka is prevented from making any meaningful connections with anyone, but Mari is no longer present as the catalyst for it.

Which raises a number of odd questions itself. In 1.0, Misato was visibly worried that Shinji wasn't making any friends. Shinji first became interested in Rei because he felt sorry for her. In 2.0, Asuka reaches out to Shinji and he largely ignores her in favor of Rei, and Misato laughs at her attempts. Just about every shot of Asuka at school has her surrounded by empty desks, but no one seems to notice or care. What happened? Who are these people?

edit: Fine, I'll edit since you did :P

[SaltyJoe]

Tsurumaki: Just as with Mari, we wanted Asuka to be signficantly involved in the story. Since we decided to make the new films we've somehow felt misgivings [about Asuka?]. When we [developed] the plot there were many scenes and dialogues involving Asuka, but we weren't able to assign her a role in the story. She didn't decisively impact Shinji, Rei, or the others. To say it plainly, we had the feeling that she was becoming something like a character who only "made noise" at the side. Asuka is a crucial character, so we wanted to involve her more in the story. She's a popular character, so we hated the idea of her appearing as "side entertainment."

Like i said, their intent was the opposite, and putting her into the position of piloting Eva-03 was their way of trying to solve the problem. I agree that no matter what Enokido thinks ("The bed scene works so well! I'm such a fucking awesome writer!"), they weren't terribly skillful or effective with it, though.

.Which raises a number of odd questions itself. In 1.0, Misato was visibly worried that Shinji wasn't making any friends. Shinji first became interested in Rei because he felt sorry for her. In 2.0, Asuka reaches out to Shinji and he largely ignores her in favor of Rei, and Misato laughs at her attempts. Just about every shot of Asuka at school has her surrounded by empty desks, but no one seems to notice or care. What happened? Who are these people?

Okay, i think i can actually debunk this by pointing to certain things in the movie:

1., About Misato: oh come on, getting Asuka socially involved was her idea to begin with. I could even argue that she takes things with Asuka more lightly because she knows that if she patronizes Asuka too much, she will probably tell her to go fuck herself. Asuka is more jaded than Shinji and has a shorter fuse, after all.

2., There is a shot of a situation you just described with Asuka isolating herself in the classroom and Shinji giving her a lingering look (after the "dawn at Tokyo-3" montage). Yeah, that's not much, but he noticed.

In fact, this is another weird thing about this movie: it's pacing is incredibly fast, yet it requires intense scrutiny to get the most out of it. This makes it more of a fans only affair, certainly. I'm starting to think that a "shot-by-shot" analysis thread (i think Xard proposed this not a long while ago) would be actually worth it.

[amplexicaule]

But it wasn't taken out of context. It was recontextualized. Those are not the same.

I don't think recontextualizing is in and of itself always a bad thing. The example you gave about the aquarium, I thought, was a really great example of this. I think the way they handled that was much better. The difference is that that scene wasn't originally hugely important, to the plot or to the development of anyone's character, really, whereas the elevator scene was (if we're talking about the directors cut) originally charged with all the hateful emotions that Asuka had started to express just before it, and also gives us a new layer of isolation to her character, because despite trying to get close to people, she doesn't know how. She tries to feel human connection with Kaji by flirting with him and trying to seduce him, and when she starts feeling more hopeless she tries to do the same thing with Shinji, doesn't she? But in that elevator scene Anno is telling us 'No, she can't become close with others or herself because she can't "open her heart" for anyone'.
They did some things with that scene that I really liked. I really liked the new phrasing, and Asuka pushing back the elevator door added a few new levels that weren't there previously that I thought were very effective. But, taken out of context, even with those good changes, the elevator scene is basically just that- Asuka and Rei in an elevator together- rather than the emotional, almost pivotal moment in Asuka's character. Again, this isn't a huge problem for newcomers to the series, but for anyone who's watched the original, it seems like if they wanted a scene to outline Asuka's and Rei's relationship, they could have either chosen a different less key scene, or they could write up a new one. Unless they were trying to point to Asuka's meltdown, in which case no newcomers get it and they rush though Asuka's character development hastily.

[esselfortium]

Okay, i think i can actually debunk this by pointing to certain things in the movie:

1., About Misato: oh come on, getting Asuka socially involved was her idea to begin with. I could even argue that she takes things with Asuka more lightly because she knows that if she patronizes Asuka too much, she will probably tell her to go fuck herself. Asuka is more jaded than Shinji and has a shorter fuse, after all.

2., There is a shot of a situation you just described with Asuka isolating herself in the classroom and Shinji giving her a lingering look (after the "dawn at Tokyo-3" montage). Yeah, that's not much, but he noticed.

This only makes their other actions even more hypocritical and hard to believe. Misato still laughs when Asuka tries cooking for him, and even if he notices, Shinji still doesn't actually make any effort, even while opening up to seemingly every other named character he's in contact with. Misato was so worried about Shinji's friendlessness, but when she knows for a fact that Shinji's a good kid and Asuka is interested in befriending him, she doesn't even hint to him that it'd be nice of him to spend time with his roommate who's lonely all the time. Does Misato suddenly not trust Shinji to be kindhearted anymore? It just plain doesn't make sense, unless we assume Mari is constantly parachuting in to inexplicably get in the way of Asuka's relationships during all the scenes we didn't get to see.

[amplexicaule]

At least Asuka and Shinji's relationship being underdeveloped makes an exact End of Evangelion ending less likely? Maybe they'll put out an ending that's actioney and happy enough to satisfy most of the fanbase.

[esselfortium]

At least Asuka and Shinji's relationship being underdeveloped makes an exact End of Evangelion ending less likely?

How so? It was their failure to develop a relationship that led to what I think you're referring to.

Maybe they'll put out an ending that's actioney and happy enough to satisfy most of the fanbase.

Given that we're beaten over the head with the concept that the girls' ability to live happily in Rebuild directly correlates to how hot Shinji thinks they are, I can't expect much in the way of a "happy" ending without at least one major character either dead or wallowing in misery.

(I'm not going to say who.)

[Legendary]

Random guess: Shinji?

[amplexicaule]

Given that we're beaten over the head with the concept that the girls' ability to live happily in Rebuild directly correlates to how hot Shinji thinks they are, I can't expect much in the way of a happy ending without at least one major character either dead or wallowing in misery.

(I'm not going to say who.)

I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but if you meant that Rei and Asuka are fighting over him romantically, I thought they made it really clear that Rei is his mom, and that she cares about him because somewhere in her she recognizes him as family.
Then again, that doesn't derail your point at all, because they really are making it seem like Asuka's emotional stability is dependent on how Shinji sees her. Which really doesn't bode well for Shinji basically ignoring her. I guess it's damned if you do damned if you don't if they're going with the movie ending at all.

EDIT: On an unrelated note, is there a 3.0 speculation thread? I didn't see one when I looked.

[SaltyJoe]

@essel:You make it sound like Asuka doesn't make a conscious effort to isolate herself, though. I mean, the scene i mentioned with Shinji looking on features her kung-fu kicking some guy away. And even in the oh-so-fantastic, in Enokido's mind, bed scene, it's not like she asks for some sweet loving or tender caresses, at least directly (and Shinji being pretty dense is nothing new, anyway).

Also i think you are taking this whole Misato laughing at her thing a bit too seriously. Funnily enough, not because of this particular instance, but if you look at the thing with some analytic intent, the movie does make a point out of Misato being a massive hypocrite, but i should make another thread about that, i guess.

[esselfortium]

You make it sound like Asuka doesn't make a conscious effort to isolate herself, though. I mean, the scene i mentioned with Shinji looking on features her kung-fu kicking some guy away. And even in the oh-so-fantastic, in Enokido's mind, bed scene, it's not like she asks for some sweet loving or tender caresses, at least directly (and Shinji being pretty dense is nothing new, anyway).

Asuka isolates herself at first, but that all goes completely out the window before long. Of course she doesn't "ask for some sweet loving," but she literally climbs into bed with him while romantic music plays. How much more obvious do her attempts need to be?

Plus, all the kids made a conscious effort to isolate themselves early on. Shinji told Misato he was used to living alone, had to be talked into moving in with her, and made his friends almost solely through dumb luck. Rei spends much of 1.0 largely ignoring anyone who attempts to communicate with her, even walking out on Shinji without a word while he's trying to explain himself. Asuka made more overt attempts to make friends than anyone, and got nothing at all. It simply doesn't make sense.

Also i think you are taking this whole Misato laughing at her thing a bit too seriously.

My point is that it's played as comedy in the narrative. That it isn't taken seriously at all is exactly what I'm bothered by.

[Mr. Tines]

EDIT: On an unrelated note, is there a 3.0 speculation thread? I didn't see one when I looked.

Lots of "XXX in 3.0" threads; the nearest to a general speculation thread was this : viewtopic.php?t=9069

[C.A.P.]

If you don’t already know the story — about young robot pilots being used to battle mysterious “angels” that threaten to destroy Earth — the film, which recasts events from roughly the middle of the TV series, will make no sense. It’s strictly for the fans, who will furiously parse the changes in the narrative (including a new female pilot) and the nonsensical stew of philosophical and religious symbolism.

The message of the current installment appears to be that puppy love can both save the world and end it — if you wait through the closing credits, you’ll get a clue as to which — and that the producers haven’t forgotten the importance of a little tasteful nudity in the midst of apocalypse.

The New York Times said all of that?

[esselfortium]

The New York Times said all of that?

Yep, and gave it a 40 out of 100. http://www.metacritic.com/movie/evangel ... ot-advance

[C.A.P.]

Oh dear. Guess I'll never get that professionally written review from a film critic that can challenge my opinion about the film if that attitude gives me any ideas.

[oOoOoOo]

The New York Times is funny. It reminds me of the reviews of "Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within" that claimed the plot was bad because it was adapted from the videogames themselves. "This is gibberish! It makes no sense unless you've played all seventeen games!" Well, it makes plenty of sense if you've read a Wikipedia article on Asian religions. It's almost like they hear "this comes from the dark corners of geek culture" and then they turn off their brains. Regardless of the quality of Rebuild, how does it make no sense? It's like the writer of the review missed the first film or actively resisted engaging with this one. My friends who have seen Rebuild (and none of the TV show) thought it was no more insane than your usual flashy scifi mindfuckery. Maybe it is a generational thing. The jargon doesn't have to make sense anymore than the jargon in crime shows or medical dramas makes sense.

Although I do like the line "puppy love can both save the world and end it".

But as the L.A. Times review also hints at, the whole experience is probably more enriching if you've seen the original TV series.

[esselfortium]

They didn't much like 1.0, either, and not due to any lack of familiarity or understanding:

When the material is condensed, nearly everything that made the first two-thirds of the television series distinctive _ — the deliberate pace, the wry humor, the subtle (for anime) characterizations — is lost. “Evangelion” becomes just another giant-robot story. The original series is available and represents a much better investment.

(This was written by the same reviewer as the 2.0 review, btw.)

[oOoOoOo]

That review seems more spot on. But I guess he understood 1.0 because less was going on. Or maybe the 2.0 review was talking about how you might feel about the film if you hadn't seen the first Rebuild.